Sorcerers- The most Under-Powered Class?

Cathexis · May 2016

Sorcs were originally predicated on mobility and utility. The ability to solo kite any numbers indefinitely was the trade off for easily reflectable damage and fewer buffs.

The problem is mobility has been systematically dismantled with no compensation.

Smajestic · May 2016

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

StamSorc is the only underpowered thing about Sorc.

Magicka Sorc is by far one of the best if not THE best class in the game for PvE and PvP.

False for PVE...

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · May 2016

If sorcerers are under-performing, then I'm ONLY fighting really good ones.

RabNebula · May 2016

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorcerers are the most under-powered class, as of the dark brotherhood patch.

mDK. Debate over. Sorcs have some of the highest dps over range. mDK's have no low cost ultimate in the next patch, no execute, lowest dps over range and being the only class with out an execute means they kind of suck. Good dots but theyre slow and easily purged. Ok aoes but just nothing on NB's.

If you feel sorcs have the lowest dps then your build and combat needs work. Good sorcs have crazy damage and and over the top defences. When used well they are low risk high reward even in the next update.

With the dropping of any possible low cost ultimate for dks ie Dawnbreaker becoming physical damage. That is one more thing to put on the pile as to why mdks are the deadest class in the game.

Memnock · May 2016

Damn... Almost 3 pages of sorcerer hate but only from a pvp aspect and literally ignoring the original post.

As far as i can see the short version of this thread is that people hate on this class because in PvP , just half of the game , they were touched by the big bad sorcs in a bad place , but absolutely fail to realize that this game has a pve aspect as well , which the initial thread was created for and in which the op lists all the stuff that the class went through and the state it is now in the pve part of the game , due to pvp minded changes.

Also , the other aspect that again derails the conversation is the fact that even though not one mention of another class is listed in the in the initial post , the 4th response already jumps to a comparison to the DKs and the fact that they do not have an execute.

How is the fact that Dks don't have an execute relevant to the fact that Mage's Fury is bugged for a super long time and doesn't start doing its job when actually indicated ? This is not a discussion about other classes , this is about the sorcerer and the fact that the class is being balanced only from a pvp aspect , which has already been pointed out that is just half of the game.

The other half the game , PVE , is suffering from the changes that will be implemented to the sorc , for balancing only 1 part of the game.

The change to the timer of the shields could have been done from the pvp debuff that reduces healing and the effectiveness of wards as well ( forgot the name right now ) , so if the timer was such an issue in pvp ( from a dev perspective ) , instead of gutting that timer , and again , messed with other builds from the pve side , it could have simply been tweaked to reduce the timer the shield is active in Cyrodil area nad left along in the rest of the game.

At least it is an acknowledged issue , the fact that outside of overload time the sorcerer sustain is kind of in the toilet , but that is drowned in the mass frustration that comes from the pvp side , again.

Unfortunately posting on the forums , about issues that affect another aspect of the game other than pvp seems to be a moot point due to people being too aggravated with a class that has had changes done to it , because of their voices have been the loudest.

In any case , my attempt to add something positive to the sorcerer was in the DB DLC was listed in a thread i made on the PTS forums in the hope that people who could provide some constructive criticism and maybe capture the attention of a forum moderator so maybe they could take it to the dev team to add to their idea pool for the class , if you would like to take a look and provide feedback you can take a look here :

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2943464#Comment_2943464

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

-

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

RebornV3x wrote: »

We just need a class spam able ability similar to Trapping Webs we have so much garbage like when was the last time anyone used Encase pets are still underwhelming etc every other Class has decent spam able abilities except Sorcs.

Well we DO have overload. technically that's spam xD

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

Opux wrote: »

The assertion that magicka sorcerers are bad in PvE is laughable. Take a look at the vMA leaderboard sometime.

The reality is that magicka sorcerers have been playing the game with training wheels on ever since release, and they are slowly being taken away. I actually think these changes don't do enough, to be honest.

That's mainly due to shields, we are able to survive better in a solo position. But this game ain't meant to be played solo all the time. Don't get me wrong, sorcs are GREAT for solo.. just not everything else except pvp.

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

When I say buffs, I'm talking strictly PVE. Sorcs are fine in pvp. I ain't complaining about that. What I am complaining about is the fact that the nerfs and balances on sorcs are based on the PVP, and not PVE as well. So the changes really hurt sorcs in PVP. I wish they somehow found a way to only enable certain nerfs/changes in pvp zones

NativeJoe · May 2016

Rakkul wrote: »

What I do not understand is this degree of change.
Why 6 seconds?
Why not 5 or 7 or 9, 14?
Where are the background calculations that shows 6 is the optimum number for Sorc pvp/pve gameplay?

Class changes - no matter the class - should be incremental adjustments, refined as the game evolves. It is near impossible to align that orderly process with a 67% reduction to a skill.

To introduce such a significant percentage adjustment should have involved an extensive level of research prior to the change. So can you please show this, or at least explain why 6 seconds was decided as the optimum figure for pvp and pve.

Otherwise it just comes across as a knee jerk reaction to community shouting from other class players. Surely that is not the image you wish to portray. Yet with this and other seemingly ad hoc changes that is the danger here.

- An organisation that panders to the loudest without carrying out due diligence, with the resultant swinging performance levels of the games' classes.

Please refute the above with your background data. 6 seconds may be the optimum, although I would be extremely surprised to see this proven for pve (which is a more stable environment and therefore easier to calculate), and show why it's not 8 or 5 or 17, 14 etc.

However, if you have decided to simply throw a large reduction out there like a brick into a pond to see the reaction, then you must fully accept the comments expected to come your way. Subsequent adjustments to the 6 seconds will not then be seen as the result of further calculations, but merely and depressingly as more knee jerk responses to he who shouts the loudest.

This serves only as an encouragement for the community to be more and more vocal in their calls for other class reductions with ever wilder demands.

That is a path for decreasing quality in gameplay, closely associated with an increasingly frustrated and declining loyalty in game population.

Why 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation.

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

Opux wrote: »

The assertion that magicka sorcerers are bad in PvE is laughable. Take a look at the vMA leaderboard sometime.

The reality is that magicka sorcerers have been playing the game with training wheels on ever since release, and they are slowly being taken away. I actually think these changes don't do enough, to be honest.

You think wards are what make sorcs good at vMA? Did it occur to you that it might be cos they have ranged dps and don't have to walk to every mob and smack them on the nose? L2range.

To illustrate my point here is a sorc speed run. He only used hardened ward, no streak, and just relies on his knowledge of the arena for positioning and his ranged dps does the rest, just using 3 skills on each bar cos toggles. If hardened ward was a burst heal like BoL instead it would have worked just as well here. Any class with access to a destro staff could do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3vAajzJkk&list=LLpXVPvCa5rVxVORQpVr6BmA&index=4

Opux · May 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

He only used hardened ward, no streak, and just relies on his knowledge of the arena for positioning and his ranged dps does the rest, just using 3 skills on each bar cos toggles. If hardened ward was a burst heal like BoL instead it would have worked just as well here. Any class with access to a destro staff could do this.

I was just going to ignore the rest of this thread, but I want to respond to this comment in particular, for two reasons:

Shields and healing are not equivalent. Using a shield is a preemptive action, that is to say you do it before you expect to take damage. This increases your effective HP, reducing the amount of situations in which you could be one shot. Healing is fundamentally a reactive action, in that you heal after taking damage. This action doesn't increase your effective HP, and since it's a reaction to being low on life the action is incredibly time sensitive. The main takeaway point here is that shields are low-risk and require very little thought or timing, whereas healing is higher-risk and is time sensitive. Reducing the time the shield persists for was a move by developers to force magicka sorcerers to think more about when they are going to apply that shield. The answer is no longer "always", so now there are more gameplay choices to be made here. When I say I don't think they go far enough, I mean I think they still don't properly balance out how little prediction shields require - they are still all reward for little risk.
The fact that a competitive sorcerer build fills 1/3rd of their skill bar with mindless toggles, and you think this is okay and indicative of good sorcerer play, only reinforces my assertion that magicka sorcerers have been playing the game with training wheels on. There are little to no meaningful decisions to be made when playing this archetype, in contrast to other classes and archetypes (including stamina sorcerer), who have to be far more mindful about second to second gameplay decisions.

iam117 · May 2016

il weigh in a little, sorcerer in pve could use a change to the current meta, BUT they are not at all far behind any of the classes in sustained dps. i know multiple sorcerers able to pull over 30k (some over 35k) on the second boss of vmol which is well over 5 min long, i have tanked numerous bloodspawn tests done by sorcs over 30k dps right around 1min. this all WITHOUT using overload at all. it would be cool to see other options of what to use as a spammable (other than force pulse), seeing as all the other classes have atleast 2 they can switch between (couple have 3). if anything a very slight buff, just to bring them up with the other classes

@Opux outside of Vma a properly played build in pve on a sorc definately does not use training wheels. even with 2 skills that do nothing other than buff stats. in pve there are 3 skills on the front bar that need kept up and 2 on the back bar that need kept up in single target fights, this is one skill less than using magicka nb, and popping assassins will is not really a difficult thing to do, especially because it has such a long timer, so really its very close to the same play dificulty. do you play a magicka sorc? if so what kind of dps do you achieve using easy mode? just curious

Cozzy1991 · May 2016

Nice troll thread.

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

Opux wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

He only used hardened ward, no streak, and just relies on his knowledge of the arena for positioning and his ranged dps does the rest, just using 3 skills on each bar cos toggles. If hardened ward was a burst heal like BoL instead it would have worked just as well here. Any class with access to a destro staff could do this.

I was just going to ignore the rest of this thread, but I want to respond to this comment in particular, for two reasons:
Shields and healing are not equivalent. Using a shield is a preemptive action, that is to say you do it before you expect to take damage. This increases your effective HP, reducing the amount of situations in which you could be one shot. Healing is fundamentally a reactive action, in that you heal after taking damage. This action doesn't increase your effective HP, and since it's a reaction to being low on life the action is incredibly time sensitive. The main takeaway point here is that shields are low-risk and require very little thought or timing, whereas healing is higher-risk and is time sensitive. Reducing the time the shield persists for was a move by developers to force magicka sorcerers to think more about when they are going to apply that shield. The answer is no longer "always", so now there are more gameplay choices to be made here. When I say I don't think they go far enough, I mean I think they still don't properly balance out how little prediction shields require - they are still all reward for little risk.

The fact that a competitive sorcerer build fills 1/3rd of their skill bar with mindless toggles, and you think this is okay and indicative of good sorcerer play, only reinforces my assertion that magicka sorcerers have been playing the game with training wheels on. There are little to no meaningful decisions to be made when playing this archetype, in contrast to other classes and archetypes (including stamina sorcerer), who have to be far more mindful about second to second gameplay decisions.

I didn't say shields were equivalent to healing, I said a large, reliable burst heal would have worked just as well in that situation, given that the sorc in the vid I linked was avoiding much of the damage through correct positioning and blocking, rolling and bashing in appropriate places. I was trying to challenge the idea that sorcs can get a good score in vMA just by spamming wards, cos it's not true; to get a good score sorcs need to observe the same combat mechanics as any other class. If anything the strongest tool for the high score for the sorc in the vid was overload.

If you read my previous comments in this thread you will see I am not really opposed to the shield nerf, I welcome it in pvp. I am trying to contribute to some honest discussion, but telling me or any sorc that playing their main class with the tools they've been given takes no skill doesn't strike me as honest discussion, and I hope it's obvious to you why I might challenge that with some contempt.

I don't understand how you can conlude that preemptive actions or active tanking are somehow less skillful than reactive actions and passive tanking. How do shields require little thought or timing? I don't think you gave that point much thought. In vMA shield timing for a sorc is crucial to survival. The timing of pretty much any skill you slot there is crucial to survival surely. Healing ward is a reactionary ward that you use in response to being low on life, so by your reasoning using healing ward takes more skill than using hardened ward?

In your second point you suggest that as well as using their class ward using toggles are also somehow training wheels. This needs some explaining cos it appears to be completely irrational. "Mindless toggles" sounds a little unhinged tbh, I agree they're mindless but they're what we have and choosing not to use them makes sorcs weaker in pve environments. Explain some more, cos right now I get the impression you're bitter or angry about something and I can't work out what. Logically taking less active skills into battle doesn't equate to less skill.

Perhaps you should just ignore this thread, you're clearly overly biased by your hatred for sorcs.

americansteel · May 2016

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

When I say buffs, I'm talking strictly PVE. Sorcs are fine in pvp. I ain't complaining about that. What I am complaining about is the fact that the nerfs and balances on sorcs are based on the PVP, and not PVE as well. So the changes really hurt sorcs in PVP. I wish they somehow found a way to only enable certain nerfs/changes in pvp zones

pvp nerfs and buffs should be seperate from pve
y

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

americansteel wrote: »

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

When I say buffs, I'm talking strictly PVE. Sorcs are fine in pvp. I ain't complaining about that. What I am complaining about is the fact that the nerfs and balances on sorcs are based on the PVP, and not PVE as well. So the changes really hurt sorcs in PVP. I wish they somehow found a way to only enable certain nerfs/changes in pvp zones

pvp nerfs and buffs should be seperate from pve
y

Yes, that's what I was hinting at. I made a suggestion post about it.

byrom101b16_ESO · May 2016

americansteel wrote: »

Rakkul wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

The last thing DK's need are buffs, and repeat this for NB's and Temps. There you go, a balanced viewpoint.

You'll need to add depth to your original post, explaining why you think this. Individual comparisons against other class abilities etc.

Otherwise it just comes across as a don't improve the class I'm not playing.

lmao, i dont need to give a reason for my comment due to the fact it implies sorcerer class is op.

You don't need to, but if you want anyone to listen to your unsupported statements that have no basis in actual reality, then you need to add some FACTS to them.

Of course your point is entirely wrong, so you will find supporting facts impossible to find without some 'creative thinking'.

byrom101b16_ESO · May 2016

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

When I say buffs, I'm talking strictly PVE. Sorcs are fine in pvp. I ain't complaining about that. What I am complaining about is the fact that the nerfs and balances on sorcs are based on the PVP, and not PVE as well. So the changes really hurt sorcs in PVP. I wish they somehow found a way to only enable certain nerfs/changes in pvp zones

PvP trolls see only PvP, they think only PvP, they spam forums only about PvP.

They think PvP is the world and PvE is somehow a 'mistake' that was made during the development cycle of 'their PvP' MMO.

They cannot understand the PvE argument and/or they won't understand it - because it isn't PvP.

Every thread is about PvP - even PvE threads.

Every comment about PvE is to be attacked; every class they don't play that has killed them once or more in PvP should be nerfed.

They are all Neo. They are all the One. PvE is the spoon... and...

"There is no spoon..."

EsoRecon · May 2016

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

I have been playing as a sorcerer main for over two years now, and this is the conclusion I have come to: Sorcerers are the most under-powered class, as of the dark brotherhood patch. Strictly speaking in the DPS scene, (as imo that's what sorcs are meant to be, if categorized in dps/tank/healer), we are specialized in BURST damage. In PVE, (yes, pve. A lot of you seem to forget that pvp is only Half of the game.)

um pvp is the only thing that matters

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

the last thing sorcerers need are buffs.

When I say buffs, I'm talking strictly PVE. Sorcs are fine in pvp. I ain't complaining about that. What I am complaining about is the fact that the nerfs and balances on sorcs are based on the PVP, and not PVE as well. So the changes really hurt sorcs in PVP. I wish they somehow found a way to only enable certain nerfs/changes in pvp zones

PvP trolls see only PvP, they think only PvP, they spam forums only about PvP.

They think PvP is the world and PvE is somehow a 'mistake' that was made during the development cycle of 'their PvP' MMO.

They cannot understand the PvE argument and/or they won't understand it - because it isn't PvP.

Every thread is about PvP - even PvE threads.

Every comment about PvE is to be attacked; every class they don't play that has killed them once or more in PvP should be nerfed.

They are all Neo. They are all the One. PvE is the spoon... and...

"There is no spoon..."

Lmao

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

I have been playing as a sorcerer main for over two years now, and this is the conclusion I have come to: Sorcerers are the most under-powered class, as of the dark brotherhood patch. Strictly speaking in the DPS scene, (as imo that's what sorcs are meant to be, if categorized in dps/tank/healer), we are specialized in BURST damage. In PVE, (yes, pve. A lot of you seem to forget that pvp is only Half of the game.)

um pvp is the only thing that matters

no, it is not.

Morvane · May 2016

I agree with topicstarter.
what can I add about cool changes of DB DLC?
about promises to buff up all stam users?

R.I.P. stamsorc

bloodenragedb14_ESO · May 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

XZS2JHub17_ESO wrote: »

I have been playing as a sorcerer main for over two years now, and this is the conclusion I have come to: Sorcerers are the most under-powered class, as of the dark brotherhood patch. Strictly speaking in the DPS scene, (as imo that's what sorcs are meant to be, if categorized in dps/tank/healer), we are specialized in BURST damage. In PVE, (yes, pve. A lot of you seem to forget that pvp is only Half of the game.)

um pvp is the only thing that matters

the fact that a significant nerf to pve has flooded the forums with pve'ers would tend to argue against this statements validity

Sorcs are very underpowered, which was once mitigated by the utility of some of our spells, we may not have had good dps, But we had more options, sadly all those options were nerfed.

Waffennacht · May 2016

I as a sorc welcome the changes... I really do hate the fotm build. Oh look at me I stacked 3 wards on the back bar... I'm so original! Can't wait till Sypher or Deltia tell me what to do next!

XZS2JHub17_ESO · May 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I as a sorc welcome the changes... I really do hate the fotm build. Oh look at me I stacked 3 wards on the back bar... I'm so original! Can't wait till Sypher or Deltia tell me what to do next!

They are casual-friendly builds in most cases, which is nice for people who don't play the game to be the best at what you do. For some, namely the "elites" we may use some of their ideas, but almost never use them. Unfortunately, this isn't too much the case for sorcs as they're very under-performing and under-powered when it comes to elite stages of, say dps, tanking and healing. (Although I would argue that a sorc healer in PVE is very viable, as they can add burst dmg as a healer, despite the shield nerf that's coming).

Remember, we're talking about the effects of PVP nerfs affecting PVE here.