So anyone try 2manning or soloing vICP on PTS yet?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

And so with between 5-10 minutes on each trash pack (that feels like an eternity btw) we eventually reach the end boss of spindleclutch after many many wipes (around 50 soul gems gone from my stack alone) and when they realize the last pack at the end boss is too much they just decide to give up and leave group. So after they all left I just switch to second bar and finish the dungeon solo asking myself why I even joined this random group experience in the first place...

Lol you have a true narrative talent ;-)

But seriously, thanks for sharing that experience here. Most good players have NO CLUE when they repeat over and over how everything is a walk in the park. There's everything in this game, from the absolutely clueless players to the excellent 35k+ DPS ones.

Again, maybe some learning tools should be implemented by ZOS. But the "play how you want" is also a vrey real feature of this game, so people should not be expecting everyone to "learn" in a way that they're all "FOTM/min-max-copy-pasted". Still we need tools to be able to learn to "play efficiently how we want".

i pugged a lot during the last days to level undaunted on my V1...V3-toons and the runs went really smooth. Maybe i had luck...maybe someone else had badluck, but the players are not that bad in general.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

And so with between 5-10 minutes on each trash pack (that feels like an eternity btw) we eventually reach the end boss of spindleclutch after many many wipes (around 50 soul gems gone from my stack alone) and when they realize the last pack at the end boss is too much they just decide to give up and leave group. So after they all left I just switch to second bar and finish the dungeon solo asking myself why I even joined this random group experience in the first place...

Lol you have a true narrative talent ;-)

But seriously, thanks for sharing that experience here. Most good players have NO CLUE when they repeat over and over how everything is a walk in the park. There's everything in this game, from the absolutely clueless players to the excellent 35k+ DPS ones.

Again, maybe some learning tools should be implemented by ZOS. But the "play how you want" is also a vrey real feature of this game, so people should not be expecting everyone to "learn" in a way that they're all "FOTM/min-max-copy-pasted". Still we need tools to be able to learn to "play efficiently how we want".

Im sorry but you have to clue what youre repeating in every thread.
You're right, there are clueless dds and 35+k dps dds. But why only clueless ones should be catered to? I dont believe they are the majority, I pugged really often and super bad groups are almost just as rare as super good. Most of average groups are, well, average.
Also, in every game, in every previous TES game, and in real life you can do whatever you want. But different desicisions will still have different outcomes, thats simply how life works.

Unfortunately, no Nerf is going to help people who refuse to kill portals even with NPC warning them that if they don't, they'll get overwhelmed.

If vICP is mostly a DPS race, vWGT is more of mechanics dungeon with multiple boss stages. That's the only reason why it could have been considered challenging before.

My PTS runs are hardly different as I'm running with guildies and people from chat, and there's hardly any casual players on PTS to begin with.

Fully agree on this. Adapting to new/unknwon/unused content/mechanics is the "big" challenge imo. Some are faster and some need more time some players even refuse to do so. But i think most players are able to do so

btw. is the equipment on PTS that bad? i didn't test that much tbh, but it did not look that bad imo. You have tons of crafting materials and most important sets are available in the boxes...

In fact, 90% of the game content is pugable and friendly. Let the elitist minority have a dungeon or 2...

zerosingularity wrote: »

So anyone try 2manning or soloing vICP on PTS yet?

My friends have 2 manned v16 vICP on live.

I mean you can't solo it on live, mainly because someone gotta bash Ibomez. Clearly that place needed a nerf-.-

Joy_Division wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

If y'all didn't want it to be nerfed, you should have been more inclusive and open to newer players by teaching them the mechanics, rather than just dropping from group or booting them when group wipes once or twice.

I say it is a fault of the elitists in the game why things like this get nerfed.

I never kick or drop anyone.

It's the V3 "tank" standing in red who rage-quits after 2 wipes telling me my healing sucks that makes PUG groups fall apart.

So much this.
The most toxicity and hatred I even saw in this game was from players who didnt want to put any effort and support the group. Usually it was bad dds, but yeah, "tanks" without taunts are notorious for that too.

UnBelievaBill wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

My own personal experience, some of my fastest vwgt runs have been done with the activity finder. It all comes down to being able to find the other masochists (albeit end game stat / geared, WGT veteran masochist) that randomly cue for WGT voluntarily.

My friend and I often go into random dungeon finder for fun. We dont specifically queue up for WGT or ICP but thats what we always seem to end up in. It isn't horrible. I think there was only one time we couldn't get through because our healer and tank just couldn't stay alive in fights. Otherwise, we've been able to get people as low as v5 through it and have met some people who genuinely want to learn how to be better players. Its always a great feeling when its someones first time in there and we give them a good expereince doing content that is challenging. This is why my friend and I go in there as often as we can. We can't do it all day everyday because there is other stuff we want to accomplish with our own 4-man group but whenever we have the time we do.

Shunravi wrote: »

I found a great quote that details exactly why I am vehemently and viciously opposed to any nerfs to dungeons (or any content) and support any and all buffs.


Stop nerfing dungeons so they are easier to burn.

And fix your power creep..../...

NO NERFS PLEASE!

buff instead so that actually using the mechanics trumps stack and burn. You have great dungeons and fun mechanics. Please keep them fun rather than just a dps fest.

Funny you quote me in your argumentation since I personally I'm not opposed to nerfs, but glad you liked my post :-)

So I'm quite happy about nerfs, you're totally unhappy about nerfs, but we agree 1000% on one thing :

FIX THE POWER CREEP

Because yes, that's ultimately the issue. Not the actual difficulty of the dungeons, but the power creep. Unlimited power creep is what brings players apart, making instances too difficult for some and too easy for others, regardless of anything else.

When 1.6 came out I was quite positive about caps being removed, obviously I was wrong. Unlimited power creep IS bad.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

If y'all didn't want it to be nerfed, you should have been more inclusive and open to newer players by teaching them the mechanics, rather than just dropping from group or booting them when group wipes once or twice.

I say it is a fault of the elitists in the game why things like this get nerfed.

I never kick or drop anyone.

It's the V3 "tank" standing in red who rage-quits after 2 wipes telling me my healing sucks that makes PUG groups fall apart.

Joy don't be so mean to Bulby, I mean I still have nightmares over the tanking but we shouldn't be mean...

I've been around since beta, and this is my two cents. Wall of text below.

I think as many have mentioned here one issue is power creep. I remember doing vCOH the week it first came out, and yes, it was quite difficult initially. Of course as we familiarized ourselves with the mechanics things got smoother but the real reduction in difficulty came when VR14 was released. Suddenly our numbers were big enough that we could burn bosses much faster. Mezeluth previously had time to do 5-6 rounds of her mechanic (due to screwups and deaths etc.), and now she dies in less than 3 rounds, and now with v16 and 501 CPs she dies before she can do her mechanic. Nerien'eth's sword grab could be broken much sooner, and other examples. Yes, there was a general difficulty nerf for the vet dungeons a few updates back but looking back now was the reduction in difficulty due more to nerfs or more due to power creep plus experience? I really can't say, but both factors must be considered.

The other main issue is lack of challenging mechanics. I see how many (rather experienced) players come here and spout tall stories about people soloing or two-manning various vet dungeons, and using that as evidence that vet dungeons have all been nerfed into the ground, and that we must conserve this endangered species known as "challenging dungeons". I'm not saying they're liars, but they miss the point with that. Notice how no one has ever soloed vet Wayrest, the so-called "easiest vet dungeon"? The reason is because the boss mechanics prevent you from doing so. When I see people suggesting things like increase boss health, increase boss damage, increase various numbers I don't agree because that will never work. Look at vMA and the number of Flawless Conquerors we have running around. Even if you throw overwhelming numbers at players people will find a way to min/max even harder, to shield stack, to do whatever it takes to survive. But throw just one unavoidable, unbreakable mechanic and you can kiss goodbye to that solo run. There needs to be more of these types of burn-proof mechanics. Like the damage shield you added for Ibomez, and the fact he needs to be bashed. Even such a simple thing like a bash forces players to work together, to communicate, to focus on being aware of their surroundings instead of just focusing on their "awsum deeps" rotation. ZOS, if you want to buff dungeons, make them mechanics buffs, not stat buffs. Look at the whole furor regarding normal vs vet MA and you will know that people despise pure stat buffs because it's just cheap.

HOWEVER

As long as they keep using their rubbish RNG loot system I will continue to support any stat based nerf to any dungeon/trial. It doesn't matter if I pull off a speed run no-death HM Molag Kena or a two hour training run wiping and teaching mechanics along the way. In the end, I will have one spin at the wheel that decides whether I get the helm I want or not. When I see the upcoming nerfs I am happy since this allows me more tries at the RNG within the same amount of time. Everything before the last boss is just a health bar blocking my way to my final rewards. From a business point of view the nerf makes perfect sense, more inclusive content sells more since more people will want to run these dungeons as success is less stat-based now, especially when they were advertised to be doable at even level 10 (and veteran 1 of course). I have seen pug groups fall apart at the Overfiend, and not necessarily because they were incompetent. The tank was taunting and blocking, interrupting his purple circle attack when possible while the heals and the dps (me) handled the adds. Everything goes well until the Overfiend does his Flurry and then the tank just melts, and everyone goes down sooner or later. Is this a case of poor skill? Or poor stats? I'm inclined to think the latter. Either way, I think ZOS is right in reducing the stats-requirements.

The only valid argument I have seen so far is "I find challenge fun, and ZOS is taking away my challenge so I want them to stop." Fair enough. However, what you find fun is just your opinion, and no amount of posturing can change that. While I rail against RNG rewards I have to mention that there is nothing inherently bad about RNG, and conversely nothing inherently good about "challenge". Slot machines are pure RNG and yet are so popular because they are easy to play. IMO the most important principle when it comes to designing content, and I cannot stress this enough, is that the challenge must match the reward. No one complains when a normal dungeon miniboss drops a white decon item, but when the same item comes from a boss in vMOL suddenly everyone starts screaming. AND THEY SHOULD. I think everyone has some inbuilt notion of what is a fair compensation for their efforts and from the various threads complaining about monster helm and shoulder drop rates, Maelstrom weapon drop rates, hell even craft mat and motif drop rates there is something very wrong with the reward system in this game, possibly born of the RNG based loot system. As long the rewards are poor, the difficulty should be low. This is my stance on all content, from questing to trials. As such, I feel the nerf is justified.

Alternatively, increase the rewards instead. Who knows? Your call ZOS.

Contraptions wrote: »

I've been around since beta, and this is my two cents. Wall of text below.

I think as many have mentioned here one issue is power creep. I remember doing vCOH the week it first came out, and yes, it was quite difficult initially. Of course as we familiarized ourselves with the mechanics things got smoother but the real reduction in difficulty came when VR14 was released. Suddenly our numbers were big enough that we could burn bosses much faster. Mezeluth previously had time to do 5-6 rounds of her mechanic (due to screwups and deaths etc.), and now she dies in less than 3 rounds, and now with v16 and 501 CPs she dies before she can do her mechanic. Nerien'eth's sword grab could be broken much sooner, and other examples. Yes, there was a general difficulty nerf for the vet dungeons a few updates back but looking back now was the reduction in difficulty due more to nerfs or more due to power creep plus experience? I really can't say, but both factors must be considered.

The other main issue is lack of challenging mechanics. I see how many (rather experienced) players come here and spout tall stories about people soloing or two-manning various vet dungeons, and using that as evidence that vet dungeons have all been nerfed into the ground, and that we must conserve this endangered species known as "challenging dungeons". I'm not saying they're liars, but they miss the point with that. Notice how no one has ever soloed vet Wayrest, the so-called "easiest vet dungeon"? The reason is because the boss mechanics prevent you from doing so. When I see people suggesting things like increase boss health, increase boss damage, increase various numbers I don't agree because that will never work. Look at vMA and the number of Flawless Conquerors we have running around. Even if you throw overwhelming numbers at players people will find a way to min/max even harder, to shield stack, to do whatever it takes to survive. But throw just one unavoidable, unbreakable mechanic and you can kiss goodbye to that solo run. There needs to be more of these types of burn-proof mechanics. Like the damage shield you added for Ibomez, and the fact he needs to be bashed. Even such a simple thing like a bash forces players to work together, to communicate, to focus on being aware of their surroundings instead of just focusing on their "awsum deeps" rotation. ZOS, if you want to buff dungeons, make them mechanics buffs, not stat buffs. Look at the whole furor regarding normal vs vet MA and you will know that people despise pure stat buffs because it's just cheap.

HOWEVER

As long as they keep using their rubbish RNG loot system I will continue to support any stat based nerf to any dungeon/trial. It doesn't matter if I pull off a speed run no-death HM Molag Kena or a two hour training run wiping and teaching mechanics along the way. In the end, I will have one spin at the wheel that decides whether I get the helm I want or not. When I see the upcoming nerfs I am happy since this allows me more tries at the RNG within the same amount of time. Everything before the last boss is just a health bar blocking my way to my final rewards. From a business point of view the nerf makes perfect sense, more inclusive content sells more since more people will want to run these dungeons as success is less stat-based now, especially when they were advertised to be doable at even level 10 (and veteran 1 of course). I have seen pug groups fall apart at the Overfiend, and not necessarily because they were incompetent. The tank was taunting and blocking, interrupting his purple circle attack when possible while the heals and the dps (me) handled the adds. Everything goes well until the Overfiend does his Flurry and then the tank just melts, and everyone goes down sooner or later. Is this a case of poor skill? Or poor stats? I'm inclined to think the latter. Either way, I think ZOS is right in reducing the stats-requirements.

The only valid argument I have seen so far is "I find challenge fun, and ZOS is taking away my challenge so I want them to stop." Fair enough. However, what you find fun is just your opinion, and no amount of posturing can change that. While I rail against RNG rewards I have to mention that there is nothing inherently bad about RNG, and conversely nothing inherently good about "challenge". Slot machines are pure RNG and yet are so popular because they are easy to play. IMO the most important principle when it comes to designing content, and I cannot stress this enough, is that the challenge must match the reward. No one complains when a normal dungeon miniboss drops a white decon item, but when the same item comes from a boss in vMOL suddenly everyone starts screaming. AND THEY SHOULD. I think everyone has some inbuilt notion of what is a fair compensation for their efforts and from the various threads complaining about monster helm and shoulder drop rates, Maelstrom weapon drop rates, hell even craft mat and motif drop rates there is something very wrong with the reward system in this game, possibly born of the RNG based loot system. As long the rewards are poor, the difficulty should be low. This is my stance on all content, from questing to trials. As such, I feel the nerf is justified.

Alternatively, increase the rewards instead. Who knows? Your call ZOS.

Agreed 100%

And that's from the don't nerf side of things.

Also, it's not just posturing, there are videos... https://youtu.be/nr5mK-x7_8M

I would say it's both experience and power. And I hope I at least hinted at that with what I was saying on power creep. Same thing with mechanics and simply hitting damage sponges and all that.

And for the RNG, I'm actually on the side of please nerf it in some respects. And you hit it right on the head. This is the same reason people farm the first bosses to open the vaults. Why grind a health bar when the rewards can be obtained in a simpler fassion by doing the least effort possible? Though, I have said it before and I suppose it would merit repeating, I would give every bit of loot in my inventory, bank, and 'dead guild' bank to keep some challenging content.

Yes I do want to have something challenging. And yes that is my opinion.

If they released a new 4 man at a higher difficulty and then nerffed it later at the next quarter while introducing a new one, the issues would be less heated as well. (Or whatever predictable, sustainable timescale.)