Latter wrote: »

Nobody is or should use hardened ward in general PvE use unless you're a tank or doing something like Llamias in Sanctum, personally i know of no good sorc dd who uses it in their setup, this shouldnt be an issue PvE wise.

um what about vMA?

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »

Latter wrote: »

Nobody is or should use hardened ward in general PvE use unless you're a tank or doing something like Llamias in Sanctum, personally i know of no good sorc dd who uses it in their setup, this shouldnt be an issue PvE wise.

You play in privileged groups obviously. Use the group finder often and see just how often a healer doesn't heal properly and you die. The reality is that many specs who are great at DPS and can hit >30k DPS still use ward for durability. Your DPS drops substantially if you faceplanted.

If your healer isnt healing properly, you should as a DD, be faceplanted. Using a broken 20k shield that lasts for 20 seconds shouldnt be your saving grace with a crappy healer in group. With changes you can still use ward. Just that if you want to keep it up 24/7 you will gimp your DPS. Now you have to use it smartly. Expecting boss to do some crazy damaging AOE? Pop ward and continue DPS. Not getting heals and you find your HP is low? Pop ward and continue DPS. Ward should never have been allowed to be worked into a DPS rotation in the first place. Ive run groups with 4 DDs just cause of Ward and annulment stacking. This should never have been possible in the first place. Especially since all you are giving up for ward is a single skill slot. No change to your build. Still stack mag, still stack damage, still stack crit. No cost to a DD build for getting a 20k shield in PVE.

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Other classes can now just used Mist Form, the changes make it worth it.

I for one, think its going to be quite difficult to take down a magcika DK with flappywings/ward and Mist Form for moving around, on a magcika sorc.

Can't use any projectiles (ForcePulse/CrushingShock, DestructiveReach/Clutch, CrystalFragments/CrystalBlast, Heavy/Light attacks from all but 2 Staffs, Overload).

Can use non projectiles (ValicousCurse, Inevitable/proxyDet, Entropy, Comet. LightingSplash, Mines(If they are so kind to step into them).

The three most useful are timed (curse and det, comet) so they can just block/ward through them before they hit.

I guess you can spam resto staff to bring down wings, all the while the DK is DPSing you into the ground.

Will be interesting to see how I will counter this.

What I do is> when I see a DK flappy flappy I turn on proxy and I start counting in my head. One thousand, two thousand, Cast curse, Three thousand, Cast streak for CC> 4 thousand, now wings are down and DK stunned. Slap their face with frags > curse would have went off, proxy going off and hit them with ult = most likely dead or very close to death.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Fighters Guild has always been a stamina based skill line. The fact that it's taken this long for ZOS to update the ultimate to scale with mighty is pure incompetence. Meteor is our equivalent to Dawn Breaker, and with this patch it's the strongest it's ever been. I do agree Slayer and Magicka Controller should have been updated to mirror each other.

No.

FG is the deadra and undead killing skill line.

Now blocked for ca. 50% of players.

Stupid.

People are trying to say it's a Stam skill line to justify the change when, in fact, ZOS is redesigning the skill line to fit their fotm buffs...err.... balance.

psychotic13 wrote: »

I honestly think the solution is to leave the shields as they were, just make them crit-able.

I think the best solution I've found to this is to make them non-stackable.

psychotic13 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

4. Annulment - imo this is the game changer, making it into a hardened ward for every class is a bad idea, every Tom *** and Harry is going to be using this as there primary defence skill. Now with sorcs there shields will be huge, although lasting minimal amounts of time, so not really that great cause you'll be spamming them to keep them up, killing your dps, resulting in your death. But this is the only thing people are seeing at the moment, what if you're fighting a DK, they like to use reflect which is already strong vs sorcs, you have to keep waiting till you can get that gap where his wings aren't up to stand any chance, now you're going to have to get his shields down and then his health while his wings are down? This just isn't going to happen be honest. Also NBs you bring them out of stealth/invisible and oh they have a shield so now you have to get that down and kill them before they cloak away? Again not going to happen in that time frame. And lastly Templars, already hard to kill if they know what they're doing with all the heals they have access to, but now they have a big great shield aswell as the best heal.

Anyway this is my opinion, feel free to express yours, maybe I'm being bias as I have a sorc who I've been playing a lot more than my NB recently.

But doesn't the amount of damage absorbed by Annulment's shield scale on Magicka... so you won't see Stamina players using it. So to say 'making it a hardened ward for every class' doesn't quite apply if it scales on Magicka like Hardened Ward does.

Correct, but Magicka users then what I've said still applies? And it's actually not hard to stack decent Magicka even on a stamina build, I guarantee stamina players will be using it.

I guess we'll have to wait till release to be sure, but this is my prediction.

Stamina players will now have bone shield the stamina equivalent

psychotic13 wrote: »

1. Dawnbreaker of smiting now being a stamina based move, I personally don't even use this as I run either a sorc or NB but a lot of my friends play as Templars or DKs and rely on this for a quick single target ultimate as a Magicka user.

-First thing first: do you know many stam/physical damage ultimates? don t you think it s only fair that we have some?
-Dawnbreaker is not a single target ability, it s an AOE
-"Passively increases your damage with weapon attacks." and you don t think it should be stamina based?

EsoRecon wrote: »

Latter wrote: »

Nobody is or should use hardened ward in general PvE use unless you're a tank or doing something like Llamias in Sanctum, personally i know of no good sorc dd who uses it in their setup, this shouldnt be an issue PvE wise.

um what about vMA?

You can replace it with: shuffle or healing ward anyway, so its not a problem

Vangy wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

Other classes can now just used Mist Form, the changes make it worth it.

I for one, think its going to be quite difficult to take down a magcika DK with flappywings/ward and Mist Form for moving around, on a magcika sorc.

Can't use any projectiles (ForcePulse/CrushingShock, DestructiveReach/Clutch, CrystalFragments/CrystalBlast, Heavy/Light attacks from all but 2 Staffs, Overload).

Can use non projectiles (ValicousCurse, Inevitable/proxyDet, Entropy, Comet. LightingSplash, Mines(If they are so kind to step into them).

The three most useful are timed (curse and det, comet) so they can just block/ward through them before they hit.

I guess you can spam resto staff to bring down wings, all the while the DK is DPSing you into the ground.

Will be interesting to see how I will counter this.

What I do is> when I see a DK flappy flappy I turn on proxy and I start counting in my head. One thousand, two thousand, Cast curse, Three thousand, Cast streak for CC> 4 thousand, now wings are down and DK stunned. Slap their face with frags > curse would have went off, proxy going off and hit them with ult = most likely dead or very close to death.

As a DK I will agree here, it's tricky to do but if you pull it off right it's brutal

peak99 wrote: »

Now u r still saying that to be a fighter u need to be Stam.... *rolls eyes*

I can buy staves at FG's across Tamriel.

FG are a group of mercanaries that kill monsters. The buffs to kill said monsters are for all players not just Stam toons. Pretty silly to argue otherwise.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

This is incorrect in both skill line and in game lore the Fighters Guild is for stamina warrior type characters. In game the Fighters Guild are a group of mercenaries who are only fighting the daedra because they are being payed to by Meridia. They don't care about the daedra at all. If they weren't being paid for it they wouldn't have fought them. The only thing magic users have ever benefited from, in the skill line, were 3 passive abilities, and Dawnbreaker scaling with Elemental Expert. Every ability in the skill line costs stamina to use. The fact that Dawnbreaker wasn't changed to scale with Mighty when the champion point system was implemented was just an oversight that took ZOS way to long to fix.

Fighters' guild and mages' guild are both monster hunter guilds, something you should know if you care about lore. Gameplay things like buying a staff from somewhere is irrelevant to lore. There are also mage NPCs who use greatswords and fight physically.

If fighters guild is an anti-daedra/undead skill line, the same should have been for mages guild. But mages guild skill line was something that was built around Magicka users. Then it is perfectly logical for fighters guilds skill line to be made to suit Stamina users.

That is, unless you are a selfish magicka user and want both skill lines for yourself.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

1) You can still use Dawnbreaker of Smiting for a quick hitting ultimate, but it just won't scale with your elemental expert CP. This is similar to stamina builds that use meteor without any CP buffs, or Flawless which has been magic damage up to this point. Either way, they have removed the 60% additional damage to Daedra/Undead from Dawnbreaker, so neither stamina nor Magicka will be hitting Daedra as hard as before the patch.

2) Stamina users will get 20% damage against Daedra on Dawnbreaker, Silver Bolts, and Trap Beast. No one will get 9% damage against Daedra/Undead anymore. The 3% weapon damage will be a wash now that flawless is only 5%, and still total 8% with Flawless slotted.

Yes, but I often have Evil Hunter and Rearming Beast Trap (PvE only) on my bar, so that is another 6% wpn damage on top of the Flawless Dawnbreaker 8%.

Either way, I agree with the OP that they should not cut magicka out of the skill line that is intended for killing deadra and undead. At a minimum, Slayer needs to grant weapon and spell damage for each FG skill equipped. I also agree Smiting should scale to magicka.

peak99 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Fighters' guild and mages' guild are both monster hunter guilds, something you should know if you care about lore. Gameplay things like buying a staff from somewhere is irrelevant to lore. There are also mage NPCs who use greatswords and fight physically.

If fighters guild is an anti-daedra/undead skill line, the same should have been for mages guild. But mages guild skill line was something that was built around Magicka users. Then it is perfectly logical for fighters guilds skill line to be made to suit Stamina users.

That is, unless you are a selfish magicka user and want both skill lines for yourself.

I have 8 toons mag/Stam of each.
U prolly only play Stam the way u defend this tho.

@peak99

Yup, I do play stamina more with 6 stamina builds and 1 magicka templar healer and 1 magicka nightblade. While, I do understand that magicka builds are going to lose one of their many choices, that choice was something that never meant to be for magicka, as magicka already had the mages guild skill line. ZoS just undid that mistake and made the guild skill lines equally distributed between both types. Now if you try say that it is anti-lore, I can provide enough evidence from the in game books and wikis to prove otherwise.
As for the people claiming that it is absolutely essential to their magicka build, nothing is stopping them from using it. They won't be getting any bonus from CP and that's it. Stamina builds did not get that scaling till now but still was forced to use them, so I don't understand what is stopping magicka toons from using Dawnbreaker of Smiting. In the case that the magicka builds really need an ultimate that scales with CP, they still get to choose from the majority of ultimates in the game.
And the argument that stamina builds won't use Dawnbreaker of Smiting much is also invalid. As you probably know, weapon and spell damage have diminishing returns to skill damage. So the 5% extra weapon damage from Flawless Dawnbreaker is only going to give around 0.7% extra DPS if you already have a good amount of weapon damage without it. Additionally, there are already ultimates which passively can give extra DPS, like the Incapacitating Strike for Stamblades which gives 2% crit chance. I will assure you that several stamina users are now going to choose Dawnbreaker of Smiting over Flawless Dawnbreaker, because of the strong AoE burst and CC in both PvE and PvP and also as an anti-gank counter given that most gankers are vampires.
There were some people who complained that it is going to badly affect their PvE DPS. If anything, that is something good as magicka builds are light years ahead of stamina builds in PvE and this will help close that gap.
I believe I have made myself clear enough to understand and if you still want to provide a counter logic, feel free to go ahead.

psychotic13 wrote: »

Hibbou wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

1. Dawnbreaker of smiting now being a stamina based move, I personally don't even use this as I run either a sorc or NB but a lot of my friends play as Templars or DKs and rely on this for a quick single target ultimate as a Magicka user.

-First thing first: do you know many stam/physical damage ultimates? don t you think it s only fair that we have some?
-Dawnbreaker is not a single target ability, it s an AOE
-"Passively increases your damage with weapon attacks." and you don t think it should be stamina based?

Yes I agree more ultimates should have a physical damage effect, but I still think a MORPH of Dawnbreaker should be Magicka based. Imo all ultimates should have a Magicka and stamina morph, this then doesn't keep you tied to picking the same ultimate to use all the time.

Dawnbreaker is an AOE yes, but because it's a cone it's good for single target aswell as it does good damage. The fact still stands that a lot of PvP Magicka dks and Templars who are dps'ing will now have to use a less effective ultimate, as they have no Magicka good damage ultimates for PvP, as things like nova and dragon knight standard are useless for PvP as there's so much mobility, and no ones just going to stand in the area.

I'm not saying FG shouldn't be stamina based, I even said they should have the equivalent of the Mage guild passive that gives %2 max Magicka and Regen. I'm saying Magicka builds shouldn't be gimped from fighting undead ect. Because that takes away balance.

@psychotic13

I don't disagree entirely with the notion of all Ultimates having a Stamina and Magicka Morph, but that's extremely problematic and limiting because Morphs are supposed to offer variation and allow people to pick what's best for their playstyle, and having each Morph scale off a different resource means you're automatically pigeonholed into picking whichever Morph happens to be the one that you have the most resources to scale with.

That would destroy countless builds and variation across the board, and for that reason alone it's an absolutely terrible idea. I think a better solution would be to have all Ultimates scale off whichever resource is highest, or even have them scale off the sum of both Magicka and Stamina (recalculated to be balanced such that min/max builds would still do the same damage as now), which would allow Hybrid Builds a chance to deal some decent damage in a way they can't currently (of course with Pelinal's being a thing now they'd need to make it calculate the sum of the resources and weapon/spell damage without Pelinal's being taken into account, or else that would just be ridiculously broken and OP).

I also agree that it only makes sense to give the Mages Guild a bonus to Daedra/Undead/Werewolves as well, that's absolutely something you'd expect Mages to have a knack for every bit as much as the Fighter's Guild. If you want Vampirism or Werewolf(ism?) cured then you go to a Mage to do it, clearly they have some proficiency dealing with such things, and killing Daedra is obviously just as much a Mage thing too.

psychotic13 wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Hibbou wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

1. Dawnbreaker of smiting now being a stamina based move, I personally don't even use this as I run either a sorc or NB but a lot of my friends play as Templars or DKs and rely on this for a quick single target ultimate as a Magicka user.

-First thing first: do you know many stam/physical damage ultimates? don t you think it s only fair that we have some?
-Dawnbreaker is not a single target ability, it s an AOE
-"Passively increases your damage with weapon attacks." and you don t think it should be stamina based?

Yes I agree more ultimates should have a physical damage effect, but I still think a MORPH of Dawnbreaker should be Magicka based. Imo all ultimates should have a Magicka and stamina morph, this then doesn't keep you tied to picking the same ultimate to use all the time.

Dawnbreaker is an AOE yes, but because it's a cone it's good for single target aswell as it does good damage. The fact still stands that a lot of PvP Magicka dks and Templars who are dps'ing will now have to use a less effective ultimate, as they have no Magicka good damage ultimates for PvP, as things like nova and dragon knight standard are useless for PvP as there's so much mobility, and no ones just going to stand in the area.

I'm not saying FG shouldn't be stamina based, I even said they should have the equivalent of the Mage guild passive that gives %2 max Magicka and Regen. I'm saying Magicka builds shouldn't be gimped from fighting undead ect. Because that takes away balance.

@psychotic13

I don't disagree entirely with the notion of all Ultimates having a Stamina and Magicka Morph, but that's extremely problematic and limiting because Morphs are supposed to offer variation and allow people to pick what's best for their playstyle, and having each Morph scale off a different resource means you're automatically pigeonholed into picking whichever Morph happens to be the one that you have the most resources to scale with.

That would destroy countless builds and variation across the board, and for that reason alone it's an absolutely terrible idea. I think a better solution would be to have all Ultimates scale off whichever resource is highest, or even have them scale off the sum of both Magicka and Stamina (recalculated to be balanced such that min/max builds would still do the same damage as now), which would allow Hybrid Builds a chance to deal some decent damage in a way they can't currently (of course with Pelinal's being a thing now they'd need to make it calculate the sum of the resources and weapon/spell damage without Pelinal's being taken into account, or else that would just be ridiculously broken and OP).

I both agree, and disagree with points you've made.

Im pretty sure ultimates already scale off which is highest, it's the type of damage it does is the problem (Physical or Magical) because of the boost damage from your CP, without having any CP it doesn't really make a difference but if you're a Magicka build and your points are in elemental expert, you won't gain a boost to your ultimate if it deals physical damage, and vice verse with stamina builds and mighty with ultimates that deal magical damage.

I do agree that it would ultimately mean when picking an ultimate you'd have to choose the one that scales with you better, maybe ultimates should have 3 morphs? If it's primarily a stamina ultimate, then 2 morphs would be stamina/physical damage based and 1 magical ? And vice verse for Primarly Magicka based ultimates.

I don't know I'm just thinking out loud here.

Okay I didn't realize that about Ultimates but they could just make it so that Ultimates scale with both Elemental Expert and Mighty, and my point about Hybrids remains because Hybrids are in desperate need of some love (this coming from a player who only plays Hybrids and has no interest in doing otherwise).