Play as you want... Without a role?

Magdalina · April 2016

dday3six wrote: »

In 4 player dungeons the best groups are actually composed of Tank, Healer and 2 DPS. The issue is finding very well versed Tanks and Healers who can provide supplemental DPS along with their prospective role. When you do 'no' Tank or Healer dungeon runs it's with hodge-podge builds. Someone likely has a Taunt to control aggro, and someone has HOTs as well as everyone running self heals, damage mitigation, and CC.

Honestly, the way everything's nerfed all you need is 4 dds, one of whom is a mag NB. Another maaaaybe templar with a BoL on offbar just in case. Taunt? CC? Please. You can just Siphon through everything.

And I hate it being this way but yeah.

Svalinn · April 2016

equip to dps 10.000 or 12.000... equip to tank.. % of mitigation.. versatility with other sets of equips for adding damage... if i wanted my life to be ruled by number i would have become a math teacher,

Rhazmuz · April 2016

If I wanted to play a MMO without the need for different roles in the end game group content I would still play GW2.

Ser Lobo · April 2016

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Human fighters 6 classes
Human mages 4 classes
Elven fighters 4 classes
Elven mages 3 classes
Dark Elf fighters 4 classes
Dark Elf mages 3 classes
Orc fighters 2 classes
Orc mages 2 classes
Dwarven Fighters 2 classes
Expansion added race 3 Battlemage classes

Class skills active passives. Gear stats only.

No constellations and other shit3 for passive stats

Roles:
Tanks
Dps (dmg per sec)
Assassins
Warriors (burst dmg,sustain+ aoe)
Mages nukers
Mages summoners
Mage buffers/debuffers
Healers
Fighter reinforcers (small scale buffs)

9man partys
3party raids

No instances. Open world hunting zones and lairs. Hundreds of world bosses 10 times harder than IC roaming bosses with serious drops. Epic bosses with legendary drops. (It would take 3 Guilds[an alliance..] to kill them).

Open world PvP.
Hero 1v1 3v3 arena

Massive maps. Yearly expanssions with serious content, lv cap increase new skills.

No pugs. No elitists. No solo.

Good players and bad players.

Balance.

Now enjoy 9 races 4 'classes' and forum talks

Sounds like you have a game you really like.

Too bad THAT game isn't for me. I kinda like ESO's non-class system. If I had my preference they would take out classes completely, ala Skyrim/Oblivion, but I guess they felt it would betray the MMO fanbase they are after too much.

Coming from the paper-and-pen world, I just couldn't stand playing DnD anymore because of how every rule focuses so hard on the class system. When they start restricting your armor or weapons because, somehow, your character in that world just can't put on a set of robes because he really likes swinging a war hammer, and I just can't get over ti.

It's unnecessarily restricting, and for no better reason that 'just because'. I damn sure don't feel it makes a better game, but that's my opinion of course.

lathbury · April 2016

I think they want tanks to be needed but they are kinda hamstrung by not being able to make suitably challenging content for proficient groups to need one.
a proficient group needs no tank and in some cases no group at all for all 4 man content on the PTS.
But a less proficient group who according to zos make up the larger quantity of players will still require one. if they make content hard enough for proficient groups to need a tank it will be deemed to hard and unplayable to a lot of players.
The changes to bracing and constitution indicate they are forging ahead with their vision to make tanking more involved maybe in an effort to encourage more people to choose that role who knows.

Jimbullbee85 · April 2016

...sorry, I don't want to be rude, but if 2 decent dps can't take down any single boss in this game outside of Trials they're doing something wrong. No encounter(except possibly CoA HM) needs more than 10-12k dps per a dps at most. If 2 dps can't provide that...yeah...

You're not being rude to me I'm a healer

Rune_Relic · April 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

Honestly with this and your previous comments it really sounds like you're talking about PUGs and the group finder. That sort of group has a rep for being bad. That's just the nature of the beast. Getting randoms to do anything is tricky. When you want something specific you collect people you know. I find Tanks and Healers for those dungeons because they have other characters, or it's give and take. I run something they want, they run something I want.

As a healer I normally go in with two of my sorcerer buddies. I'm head of a guild with almost 200 members and maybe two regular players are good tanks. Finding a good tank is difficult so the three of us go into group finder and very very rarely do we see tanks queuing up for WGT. Not all players who go into group finder are playing with randoms. Theres ways of getting into it with your pals too.

And yes we are ALL talking about group finder and the trinity system. That's the point of this conversation.

Trinity sure, Group Finder, not so much. This thread is mostly about the game becoming so easy that the role of Tank becomes obsolete. Read the last paragraph of the OP.

What's your point? The group dungeon is the perfect example of trinity in action.

My point is that if you're going into the group finder expecting anything but a #*%* show you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Particularly if you've going into ICP, WGT, or CoA. That's why ZOS is nerfing them. Of course the difficulty of those dungeons is not the real issue, but it's easier to nerf them than it is to address it.

The perfect example of a trinity group is a collection of players who each know their respective role and have the abilities (i.e. Skill lines leveled and slotted) and skill to fulfill it. I can as a DPS select all three roles without a taunt or heal slotted, with no intention of equipping either and the group finder doesn't care. It's a broken system. The product of trying to mix too much single player with multiplayer, and not actually teaching players how to perform their roles.

Simple fix.
Must have 1h+s skillbar to enable tank option.
Must have resto slillbar to enable heal option.

Inarre · April 2016

You guys make some awesome points, and its reassuring as a support role to see that dps still value the presence of healers and tanks in some cases. What worries me is daily content (we agree trials need the trinity party format yes?) commonly is run by 4 dps. I can say that as when levelling my dps i tanked icp by equipping a shield and a taunt. Now that dungeon is seeing more nerfs.... So from my perspective the game is turning even more to dps.

I appreciate zos has mechanics that are meant to ensure the need of support roles, but when dps are SO STRONG they can out dps the mechanics, and then we see even more nerfs to content, it needs to be re evaluated if its something they think is of any importance.

I would really like to see boss fights become more interesting for the tank, with more range of boss damage per hit, and more mechanics to ensure that healers and tanks still have a place in the game, otherwise healers and tanks become inefficient, useless, and obsolete.

Septimus_Magna · April 2016

The CP system hasnt been taken into account, at least in the older dungeons.

If it had been all dungeons should adjusted so bosses hit harder and have more health.

DPS has increased so much due to the CP system and new sets but the content hasnt been scaled with it.

This is why people can solo vet dungeons and 4-man Sanctum HM.

If all dungeon bosses would hit harder tanks and healers would be needed more, right now its so laughable that Rapid Regen and Funnel Health can heal through the boss' dmg.

Nogawd · April 2016

As a healer, for a while now, in daily vet pledges I have preferred 3 good dps.

I think many just seek a tank in zone just out of habit.

Like when it vet daily is Elden Hollow....really, you do not need a tank.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

Nogawd wrote: »

As a healer, for a while now, in daily vet pledges I have preferred 3 good dps.

I think many just seek a tank in zone just out of habit.

Like when it vet daily is Elden Hollow....really, you do not need a tank.

And soon enough with the way self heals ar going....you wont need a healer either.
Then what ?

Nogawd · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

As a healer, for a while now, in daily vet pledges I have preferred 3 good dps.

I think many just seek a tank in zone just out of habit.

Like when it vet daily is Elden Hollow....really, you do not need a tank.

And soon enough with the way self heals ar going....you wont need a healer either.
Then what ?

Good thing all my dps is leveled, just change my cp.

Tan9oSuccka · April 2016

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

I'd like to do WGT with my tank, but the group finder tool messes up every time and places me with large groups (larger than 4) and goes stupid.

Ah well. V16 DK Tank on the shelf for that one.

AhPook_Is_Here · April 2016

Inarre wrote: »

Looking at @personofsecrets very reasonable and insightful points in regards to tanking in eso...and now in light of the db nerfs to dungeons, i honestly wonder if it hasnt been zos goal to do away with the traditional mmo party structure.

Why would you need a tank with the changes to damage shields? Your STA dps can run 40k self-shields with bonewall, and magicka, annulment, for their 40k shield. Healer agro? who cares, one of the two shields and a variant of sun-shield. People should 3 dps 1 heal all the vet stuff, any dps should just queue as tank too so parties can form fast.

Inarre · April 2016

A lot of people are arguing to get rid of tanks in this thread.... Did you guys miss the OP?

kawazu874b16_ESO · April 2016

Too lazy to read the whole thread, even if I read at least more than half of it...

Defined roles (the called holy trinity) as T,D,H were made a long time ago for computers without power to have good AIs. The robotic behaviour was quite easy to handle. A quite non destructible cube playing tag while other players just manage "aggro" A progress bar (aggro) with 2 buttons (damage or heal depending on the "class") would have been enough as UI.

IMHO, ESO kept them to gives players hints but... If, I, a boss, can kill instantly an enemy, I won't run after a small stupid gremlin playing tag, I'll kill the nearest who tried to harm me and if I see someone healing that bast.. I won't take time, I'll rush on the "healer" (not the role) and try to kill that "thing" while damaging others as I pass by them and so on. Why should I care about a gremlin ? The gremlin ? I'll eat this stupid idiot as dessert ! (low pitch voice laugh

)

Now dispatch the "boss idea" to a group. This requires computing power. A good AI always requires computing power. restricting more and more to basic roles is a really easy way for any devs of any MMO to please WoW (and all korean clones) players and make money because the pure TDH scripts requires far less computing power while they are stupidly artificials. Less power, less computers running, more money.

ArenaNet in GW2 tried to throw away the traditional roles but they, at least, didn't want to lower damage curves and kept too high ones. The result was rushable dungeons with very high dps but really nice dungeons without. No AI can oppose overpowered players. Balance, balance, balance. (see super-player thread to catch another related big problem)