Well as of this patch, I've done all Dungeons without a tank and watched someone solo vCoA. The only trials in this game are the only content where Tank is required. With CP160 Sanctum coming and vMoL, along with the dungeon nerf.. Tanks will still be needed, but only be needed in Trials. This is why I've made a magNB and magSorc for almost every other content while my tank waits for the moment to stretch it's claws. It's depressing honestly

Roles are pretty silly but there does still need to be healing and CC and melee.

I'd much rather have each dungeon specify what's needed but I skip our skills could change too but if it's all dps and no roles, strategy goes away and to some, the game is boring.

I like the free form that exists even with the changes coming. It pretty much removes strict roles from launch but you have a basic responsibility depending upon group make-up

Svalinn wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Then gamers decided that combat and skill isn't as fun as stats and number calculations, so games started adding passive glyphs elemental stones, constellations, you name it, to improve characters and prolong gaming life of a game, all under the lame slogan make your unique build....

Damn... the moment ZOS realise that they can just... take the leveles and the stats AWAY from the game by having all the areas having the exact same level and free to enter without cadwell achievements (after all all DLC areas already scale players to vet 16 proving that "leveling" is kind of useless in terms of "game enjoyment") and bring back the SKILL PROGRESSION we had in oblivion or skyrim instead... this will be the best game ever xD

And pvp would be dull, dull, dull.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

That is what gamers wanted. Any race any class any weapon. No identity.

Then gamers decided that combat and skill isn't as fun as stats and number calculations, so games started adding passive glyphs elemental stones, constellations, you name it, to improve characters and prolong gaming life of a game, all under the lame slogan make your unique build....

..And now we are all the same. Eg why bother using defensive stats? Instead of trying to pick an enemy build to defend from -> use everything on dps. Pick a dps trait and focus on that.

Don't blame game studios. Blame the gamers.

There is nothing wrong with the classes or skills... or building for damage is you are idk.. a damage dealer? It's the content. Harder content = more defined roles. When content is nerfed, roles disappear and stack and wack occurs

Svalinn wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

And pvp would be dull, dull, dull.

Just the opposite, players would be able to actually make the most different builds having at disposal all skill lines BUT only limited active and passive skill choices (to understand what i mean by "limited passive" check out how the skills work in The Secret World)... or instead of choosing the passives you just make them rely on your current equip so that you will not use all of your passives anyway.

THe truth is.. without levels and stats the "PvP" would become much more skill based and enjoyable for everyone... because as it is now it rely only on 2 things:

1. who has the less lag
2. who has the best equip

KNow what? i REALLY want to make an example to explain this better: we have a perfect example to use with one of the best "PvP" mmos out here at the moment.... blade and soul.

How does PvP in the game works? Simple.... when you enter the arena no matter the level or the equip EVERYTHING get shutted down and player stats are equilised... and it's one of the best PvP experienes you can find in the market.. with absolutly no lvl or stat relevance

No, if we truly went the way of skyrim for example, all players would equip the same type of gear and the only thing to mark progression beyond end game would be combinations of skills. Players already cry that they are bored with the lack of cp increase, and now you wish to take away the ability to build as well?

No, the variety is what makes eso what it is, a fun, creative game full of customizable options. Eso will never be skyrim.

Most players these days build their best characters for pvp and all the experienced players have went to desperate measures to up their dps for quick kills in Cyrodil. It's these players (not intentionally) that have made the hardest dungeons impossible for a multy role group to defeat the hard bosses because ZOS has to keep the game interesting for those at the top of the dps ladder. ZOS has made the dps demand to take hard bosses down so high and its putting pressure on the healers and tanks who don't deal as much damage. This is why for let's say white gold tower, the experienced v16 dps builds are doing them in groups of 4 and kicking healers and tanks. I think the only solution is to buff armour ratings and shields for both healers and tanks and healing power for healers. Maybe even make a better distinction between healing power and spell power. That way healers and tanks can be of use again. They cant buff dps because that would make dps buils far too powerful in pvp. To maintain the balance they could increase the amount of health the bosses have to make the dungeon harder for a full dps team. It might take a longer amount of time to take down the boss but at least it'll be challenging still for the experienced v16s. Something needs to be done. If two decent v16 dps builds can't take down a boss with a decent v16 healer and tank but some overpowered dps builds can solo them then theres something wrong with the mechanics of the game. It needs sorting out before we lose players who love support roles. After all this is supposed to be a role playing MMO game not some boring shooter like COD.

It is beyond not mandatory, it is inefficient

Svalinn wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

And pvp would be dull, dull, dull.

Just the opposite, players would be able to actually make the most different builds having at disposal all skill lines BUT only limited active and passive skill choices (to understand what i mean by "limited passive" check out how the skills work in The Secret World)... or instead of choosing the passives you just make them rely on your current equip so that you will not use all of your passives anyway.

THe truth is.. without levels and stats the "PvP" would become much more skill based and enjoyable for everyone... because as it is now it rely only on 2 things:

1. who has the less lag
2. who has the best equip

KNow what? i REALLY want to make an example to explain this better: we have a perfect example to use with one of the best "PvP" mmos out here at the moment.... blade and soul.

How does PvP in the game works? Simple.... when you enter the arena no matter the level or the equip EVERYTHING get shutted down and player stats are equilised... and it's one of the best PvP experienes you can find in the market.. with absolutly no lvl or stat relevance

skill? ,really ?, without skill wi thout equipt, you will just smashing that left klik button like what you did in skyrim/oblivion

dont deny it lol

abou tank, no, it'll not obsolete, at least not yet, even in gold pladge and hardcore trial people still looking for tanks, even tho tank is not really priority, what i want to see with ZoS is dungeong design, design the dungeon so tank can be more relevant, like what FF14 did with their dungeon

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It is beyond not mandatory, it is inefficient

Some people keep saying that, but it is mandatory to have both Tanks and Healers in 12 player Trials.

In 4 player dungeons the best groups are actually composed of Tank, Healer and 2 DPS. The issue is finding very well versed Tanks and Healers who can provide supplemental DPS along with their prospective role. When you do 'no' Tank or Healer dungeon runs it's with hodge-podge builds. Someone likely has a Taunt to control aggro, and someone has HOTs as well as everyone running self heals, damage mitigation, and CC. Then there will be a lot more blocking, dodging, and kiting among the group as well. This approach is more effective compared to running with a Tank and Healer that ignore any DPS output of their own. However with Tanks and Healers that do both their role with secondary DPS the 4 "DPS" approach is eclipsed.

The best DPS is centralized on just that. Every skill on their bars is dedicated to dealing damage, and their output is highest when they can focus almost exclusively on dealing damage. When this is diluted their DPS ceiling drops drastically. Having to slot utility that would otherwise be run by the Tank and/or Healer limits what a DPS can do, and that's exactly what happens with a 4 DPS run.

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

Honestly with this and your previous comments it really sounds like you're talking about PUGs and the group finder. That sort of group has a rep for being bad. That's just the nature of the beast. Getting randoms to do anything is tricky. When you want something specific you collect people you know. I find Tanks and Healers for those dungeons because they have other characters, or it's give and take. I run something they want, they run something I want.

I totally agree with that, yup that's the one. Plus those light portals require very fast handling. It's impossible to prevent adds spawning unless we use ranged attacks to close them.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

Honestly with this and your previous comments it really sounds like you're talking about PUGs and the group finder. That sort of group has a rep for being bad. That's just the nature of the beast. Getting randoms to do anything is tricky. When you want something specific you collect people you know. I find Tanks and Healers for those dungeons because they have other characters, or it's give and take. I run something they want, they run something I want.

As a healer I normally go in with two of my sorcerer buddies. I'm head of a guild with almost 200 members and maybe two regular players are good tanks. Finding a good tank is difficult so the three of us go into group finder and very very rarely do we see tanks queuing up for WGT. Not all players who go into group finder are playing with randoms. Theres ways of getting into it with your pals too.

And yes we are ALL talking about group finder and the trinity system. That's the point of this conversation.

Trinity sure, Group Finder, not so much. This thread is mostly about the game becoming so easy that the role of Tank becomes obsolete. Read the last paragraph of the OP.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

On another note I think the monster set drops are too specific from final bosses. For instance White Gold Tower. It's difficult getting tanks for that dungeon when they have no interest in the Molag Keena set. Why would they want to do it more than once when there are dungeons with monster drops that are more suitable to them. I never see tanks in WGT. It's normally a shed load of dps' and the occasional healer or hybrid.

Honestly with this and your previous comments it really sounds like you're talking about PUGs and the group finder. That sort of group has a rep for being bad. That's just the nature of the beast. Getting randoms to do anything is tricky. When you want something specific you collect people you know. I find Tanks and Healers for those dungeons because they have other characters, or it's give and take. I run something they want, they run something I want.

As a healer I normally go in with two of my sorcerer buddies. I'm head of a guild with almost 200 members and maybe two regular players are good tanks. Finding a good tank is difficult so the three of us go into group finder and very very rarely do we see tanks queuing up for WGT. Not all players who go into group finder are playing with randoms. Theres ways of getting into it with your pals too.

And yes we are ALL talking about group finder and the trinity system. That's the point of this conversation.

Trinity sure, Group Finder, not so much. This thread is mostly about the game becoming so easy that the role of Tank becomes obsolete. Read the last paragraph of the OP.

What's your point? The group dungeon is the perfect example of trinity in action.

My point is that if you're going into the group finder expecting anything but a #*%* show you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Particularly if you've going into ICP, WGT, or CoA. That's why ZOS is nerfing them. Of course the difficulty of those dungeons is not the real issue, but it's easier to nerf them than it is to address it.

The perfect example of a trinity group is a collection of players who each know their respective role and have the abilities (i.e. Skill lines leveled and slotted) and skill to fulfill it. I can as a DPS select all three roles without a taunt or heal slotted, with no intention of equipping either and the group finder doesn't care. It's a broken system. The product of trying to mix too much single player with multiplayer, and not actually teaching players how to perform their roles.