PvP in ESO 2.4; Stamina/Magicka balance?

Erondil · April 2016

Stamina buffs:
-Burning breath; Unstable flame; Incapaciting Strike; Killer's blade; Relentless focus procc; Dawnbreaker; Burning light are now scaling on the Mighty champion passive; roughly equivalent to a 25% damage buff for stamina users sitting at 501CP
-Venom arrow and its morph (looking at Poison Injection) damage over time increased by 12%
-Various others weapon skills damage buff
-Bone Shield: absorb shield scaling off max stamina
-Various Fighter's guild passives revisited
-New stamina focused sets

Magicka Nerfs:
-Hardened ward and Annulment duration reduced to 6 seconds
-Proximity Detonation base damage reduced by 45%
-Rushed ceremony and steadfast ward can no longer affect allies through walls and other line of sight blockers
-Abilities that heal based on their damage done (Strife, Puncturing Sweeps, etc.) will no longer “double dip” in the Critical Strike modifier.

Couldn't manage yet to find significative stamina only nerfs, nor significative magicka only buffs (except annulment change).

Please, discuss.

Upularity · April 2016

Game is getting more balanced I guess?

Leandor · April 2016

I don't yet feel capable of commenting on stam/mag balance, but I do know that being a vamp or wolf in PvP spells immediate AP pinata with the fighters guild changes. Time to cure, I guess.

The stamina changes sound... Interesting. The proxy change was needed. I do fear for viability of shield sorcs a bit, but at least they made shields consistent.

Ahzek · April 2016

Kill me.

QuebraRegra · April 2016

been around long enuff to recognize the pendulum swinging back again... Was magicka, then stamina, then magicka, now stamina again. Will the game still be around long enuff for it to swing back?

ostrapz · April 2016

We will be closer to balance than last 2 patches imo, what are the new stamina sets i didnt see them

Detector · April 2016

Optimal mag/stam balance in next DLC (DB).

covenant_merchant · April 2016

I think we all need to pay close attention to the best change so far: "Vigor: Casting Vigor with a staff equipped will no longer make the staff go through your legs." Finally, hybrid builds are fixed. \o/

zyk · April 2016

PVP POV

A lot of people believed Magicka had the edge over Stam in 2.3 mainly because of the VD hype. This was overblown and *highly* situational.

It's hard to even fathom balance between Stamina and Magicka in ESO because of the design of Roll Dodge, Sprint and Break-Free. These are all essentially stamina only hard-coded abilities that all builds must use. This makes resource management trivial on Stamina builds.

When one considers that players only have five abilities per bar plus one ultimate, this is a *huge* advantage for Stamina builds.

IMO, as far as small scale PVP goes, Stamina builds are again firmly OP with the changes introduced to 2.3.

ostrapz · April 2016

@zyk im not understanding how 5 skills and an ultimate gives stamina a boost over magicka..

zyk · April 2016

ostrapz wrote: »

@zyk im not understanding how 5 skills and an ultimate gives stamina a boost over magicka..

Because if you consider the Roll Dodge, Sprint, Block and Break-free functions as abilities--which they essentially are--it means that 4 out of 10 abilities/functions available at any given time are exclusively stamina based. Including potions and crouch 5/12.

Furthermore, the fact that the relative cost of those functions is being increased disproportionately impacts Magicka builds because it is far more difficult, yet essential, for Magicka builds to carefully manage Stamina.

Edit:

Oooops. I forgot to include the exclusively Stamina based block function. Another *huge* innate advantage for Stamina builds.

This must be taken into account when balancing Stamina and Magicka. I do not believe it has been. Perhaps now that Stamina builds have more options for Stamina based abilities, it's time for Magicka builds to get some options for Magicka based Roll Dodge/Block/Sprint/Break-Free/Crouch.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

Lol think its taken into account by the fact that if a stamina character has to dodge, block and break free and still take their skills from the same pool you get to a point where there is no stamina left to do these things. Exactly like a sorcerer shield stacking, if he needs to constantly use Shields for his defence eventually he runs out. Maybe now is the time for prismatic enchants rather than purely focusing on Max damage stat.

susmitds · April 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Couldn't manage yet to find significative stamina only nerfs.

Seriously? HOW COULD YOU NOT SEE WRECKING BLOW NERF?

Khaos_Bane · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Couldn't manage yet to find significative stamina only nerfs.

Seriously? HOW COULD YOU NOT SEE WRECKING BLOW NERF?

That was needed soooo badly.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

I must admit I thought the wrecking blow Nerf was needed and they handled it well by letting you take either the extra damage or the knockback stun. For me it means I'll feel less stuck to using 2 hander as I like the look of the dual wield flurry changes which is what I always wanted to use but felt I was harming myself if I was not using wrecking blow.

Detector · April 2016

OMG. OKAY
Stamina OP?
Absorb shields scale to max mana/stamina.
Max mana > max stamina
So absorb shields in magicka-builds is more strong.
RIP stamina.

P.S. WTB "LOL" button.

OtarTheMad · April 2016

The new trait stones and other things also really play a part in this. Will have to test longer to see if magicka is boned and stamina is meta now but honestly... from first looks the nerf the shields seemed a bit much for Sorcs but feedback might get that adjusted to like 10 secs or something.

It might be closer to balance, I know I was running around on a stamina template last night using bone shield and it was nice to have some damage absorber, might make stamina a pain now but more testing/playing around with new sets and traits might nullify some of the nerfs.

Erondil · April 2016

Detector wrote: »

OMG. OKAY
Stamina OP?
Absorb shields scale to max mana/stamina.
Max mana > max stamina
So absorb shields in magicka-builds is more strong.
RIP stamina.

P.S. WTB "LOL" button.

yes because absorb shield is the only defence of stamina builds right? They dont have the option to dodgeroll more and better heals than every magicka class but templar riiiight?

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

Hate to say this but you do know magic classes can dodge roll too, maybe less but since your not using your stamina for everything else it regens so you can do it again. Looks like a huge over reaction to me. I think looking at it things seen more balanced than they have been previously. Still not perfect but it never will be unless they took away diversity and choice which I hope they never do.

Cyantific87 · April 2016

Proximity Detonation was a good change.. Higher Damage against stacked players and lower against solo.. Sorry but I don't see a nerf there...

Maybe my math is incorrect but

Live
10000 tooltip will scale to a max 20000
PTS
6500 tooltip will scale to 22750..

Right?

@Erondil

Detector · April 2016

Erondil wrote: »

yes because absorb shield is the only defence of stamina builds right? They dont have the option to dodgeroll more and better heals than every magicka class but templar riiiight?

But stamina-builds will be have 1 universal-absorb-shield. Magicka-builds can use 2 or 3 universal-absorb-shields (more stong shields becouse max mana > max stamina).

Erondil · April 2016

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Hate to say this but you do know magic classes can dodge roll too, maybe less but since your not using your stamina for everything else it regens so you can do it again. Looks like a huge over reaction to me. I think looking at it things seen more balanced than they have been previously. Still not perfect but it never will be unless they took away diversity and choice which I hope they never do.

I'm running a magicka build with 1.4k stam regen, that means I sacrifice alot for stamina regen and yet I cant dodgeroll nearly as much as a stamina build running 1.2k stam regen (even if he has to use stamina for skills and I dont)

Cyantific87 wrote: »

Proximity Detonation was a good change.. Higher Damage against stacked players and lower against solo.. Sorry but I don't see a nerf there...

Maybe my math is incorrect but

Live
10000 tooltip will scale to a max 20000
PTS
6500 tooltip will scale to 22750..

Right?

@Erondil

Patch note says slightly less damage agaisnt 10 targets. I too like the change itself (I hate the use of Proximity detonation in duels) but added to so many stamina damage buffs and no magicka damage buff to compensate the loss of proxy...

Lava_Croft · April 2016

Add in poisons that will drain stamina and Magicka users will spend more time than ever stuck in whatever form of CC is endlessly spammed on them, while Shuffle users will keep dodging and dodgerolling and now also spam damage shields.

Yay?

Cyantific87 · April 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Hate to say this but you do know magic classes can dodge roll too, maybe less but since your not using your stamina for everything else it regens so you can do it again. Looks like a huge over reaction to me. I think looking at it things seen more balanced than they have been previously. Still not perfect but it never will be unless they took away diversity and choice which I hope they never do.

I'm running a magicka build with 1.4k stam regen, that means I sacrifice alot for stamina regen and yet I cant dodgeroll nearly as much as a stamina build running 1.2k stam regen (even if he has to use stamina for skills and I dont)

Cyantific87 wrote: »

Proximity Detonation was a good change.. Higher Damage against stacked players and lower against solo.. Sorry but I don't see a nerf there...

Maybe my math is incorrect but

Live
10000 tooltip will scale to a max 20000
PTS
6500 tooltip will scale to 22750..

Right?

@Erondil

Patch note says slightly less damage agaisnt 10 targets. I too like the change itself (I hate the use of Proximity detonation in duels) but added to so many stamina damage buffs and no magicka damage buff to compensate the loss of proxy...

For some reason, I managed to skip that last bit of the notes! I would like to see how Zenimax's math works.. lol

In fairness though I do agree with most of your post though, seems like many stamina buffs but I think only slight magicka nerfs, depending on class as well. I play magicka NB mainly and think the harness magicka change, even with duration decreased, is decent because of the physical damage it absorbs. I might even try it out when it hits live..

Erondil · April 2016

Detector wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

yes because absorb shield is the only defence of stamina builds right? They dont have the option to dodgeroll more and better heals than every magicka class but templar riiiight?

But stamina-builds will be have 1 universal-absorb-shield. Magicka-builds can use 2 or 3 universal-absorb-shields (more stong shields becouse max mana > max stamina).

The only thing stamina build was lacking compared to magicka last patch was a way to prevent/recover from a high burst, since their instant selfheal (rally) is not spammable. One shield on top of dodgerolls is enough to let high hots from vigor do the job until rally is worth recasting. No need for another shield, and magicka shieldstack took a nerf with the reduced duration.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Add in poisons that will drain stamina and Magicka users will spend more time than ever stuck in whatever form of CC is endlessly spammed on them, while Shuffle users will keep dodging and dodgerolling and now also spam damage shields.

Yay?

Dont forget the new pots granting major vitality (30% more healing received) huge buff to heals like Vigor and Rally but dont do sh*t for shields users :^)

SteLuppi91 · April 2016

I think that with heavy armor buff and other things, light armor need buff! Like 1/2% more spell dmg for piece of light armor equipped!or better 5/10% more spell dmg with 5 or more pieces of light armor equipped in addtion st spell crit!is it wrong? I will not want play heavy armored DK with black rose

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

Lol, tunnel vision much? If your issue heavy armour you would be suggesting the same enhancements for medium armour. Though I will say I think the heavy armour change was a Nerf personally as now blocking is a lot more expensive. Damage output was never a heavy armour users primary goal so this seems a stupid change.

Ballzy321 · April 2016

Stam builds are gonna be scary good with a shield. Now they can heal up no problem at all now. Except for Templars magic builds took a good hit as of right now.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

I really think its evened out a bit since all the opposite arguments were heard on the last patch where magic got a bunch of major buffs. I have multiple characters on both sides of the fence and think most changes except the weird heavy armour one are for the better and finally balancing things out.

Joy_Division · April 2016

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Hate to say this but you do know magic classes can dodge roll too, maybe less but since your not using your stamina for everything else it regens so you can do it again. Looks like a huge over reaction to me. I think looking at it things seen more balanced than they have been previously. Still not perfect but it never will be unless they took away diversity and choice which I hope they never do.

You have no idea how expensive it is to CC break on a mgicka build do you?

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

I play enough chars at rank 16 to say um yes. Though I'm at Max Cp and have been for quite some time and use them to help with issues like that rather than just piling everything into damage.