Dark Brotherhood questline

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

well i loved the dark brotherhood in oblivion... i liked it in skyrim even tho i think the oblivion one was far better... and i don't really care if i have to kill innocents i mean.. if i'm a killer i'm a killer.. and people make contracts with the dark brotherhoos to kill whoever they want for wathever reason they want.. if you can't live with it then you're not "killer material"... and you should probably hope for a "shining knight saving princesses" kind of DLC xD

Actually it would be nice if some sort of Knightly orders were available, and balance out the less than heroic options. Even the Fighters Guild are just a bunch of mercenaries - they aren't much better than the DB, they're just less sneaky about it.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Nic727 wrote: »

In Skyrim Its all about killing innocent people for no reason...

Back in Skyrim, my character had a reason. She got paid...
Soon in ESO, my main character will do the same things for the same reason.

My less ruthless characters on the other hand... may will never play that particular storyline.

I kinda wish these two "criminal" DLCs offered two choices for guild membership, mutually exclusive... one for the DLC story, and one that makes it impossible to get there. Like... an Iron Wheel membership that locks you out of any outlaw refugees and treasure troves, for those characters who are all lawful and such... I totally have a couple characters who would go for that sort of thing!

I was hoping this as well @TheShadowScout , the only problem is that I've done the TG story on characters who I'd rather play in the Iron Wheel, purely because 'it was there' and I'm trying to maximize achievements on the character. I simply look at it as an 'alternate timeline' or a momentary lapse in self thanks to Daedric muddling (compare to Hercules going mad thanks to Hera). Your concept reminds me of Morrowind though, and I think for that reason alone it has some good merit. I just hope you could quit TG and join Iron Wheel if that option is given, even if it is mutually exclusive. As an aside I wish there were a monster-hunting guild that were diametrically opposed and therefore mutually exclusive to vampires and werewolves. I don't care what they would call it, but for now we can call it Dawnguard or VanHelsing.

Shadowfx1970 · April 2016

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dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Nic727 wrote: »

Hi,

I really hope quests with Dark Brotherhood will be better than in Skyrim... In Skyrim Its all about killing innocent people for no reason. I hope in TESO it will be different.

What do you think of Skyrim DB questline?

What would you like improved for TESO?

It's the Dark Brotherhood. The Dark Brotherhood.

Volkodav wrote: »

Well,it IS a DLC about murderers,actually.So,killing is the main part of it,I am sure.
There were reasons for killing people in Skyrim. It wasnt just for no good reason.People got in other people's way,or betrayed them,etc.

This.

I'm curious: what kind of believable quest line could even be written that would change a group of murdering, psychotic cultists, who worship to the corpse of a dead woman and who will kill whenever some poor soul initiates a particular ritual, into a feel-good group of heroes who only kill for ... reasons?

Meh. I think they went too soft on the Thieves Guild myself. They're thieves. They steal. Don't try to make it all ... nice.

I didn't like the way Skyrim ends up forcing you down the road of becoming a Nocturnal cultist. I really wish they had an option to tell Nocturnal to *** off, and continue forward with the quest. That quest felt too on the rails at the end, otherwise TG was great in Skyrim. The same though is true with DB. The choice between Penitus Oculus and the DB was not much of a choice. The Penitus Oculus option was just so bland, and really didn't offer as much action. The game already has more villainous gameplay without the DB and TG in the form of Daedric Relic quests, I couldn't understand why the heroic option wasn't more open. Dawnguard DLC did a much better job of balance in my view, and I felt it did a great job of luring the hero into becoming a Vampire despite his best desires, due to nature of the quest which I won't spoiler here. Dawnguard DLC was some of the best content of Skyrim, and so was Solstheim there.

The Thieves Guild in ESO doesn't seem soft to me. I have to say I liked the more mafia-style treatment they get in Skyrim, but I think the Guild itself should have more than one flavor. I like the Baandari theme, and I like the Grey Fox theme. I like the notion that not all thieves have to be the villain, or at least they can try to be the hero sometimes.

dimensional · April 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

well i loved the dark brotherhood in oblivion... i liked it in skyrim even tho i think the oblivion one was far better... and i don't really care if i have to kill innocents i mean.. if i'm a killer i'm a killer.. and people make contracts with the dark brotherhoos to kill whoever they want for wathever reason they want.. if you can't live with it then you're not "killer material"... and you should probably hope for a "shining knight saving princesses" kind of DLC xD

Actually it would be nice if some sort of Knightly orders were available, and balance out the less than heroic options. Even the Fighters Guild are just a bunch of mercenaries - they aren't much better than the DB, they're just less sneaky about it.

the fighters guild are mercs but in this game at least their sole purpose is the continued hunt for evil daedra, which is as close to a knight-like order you can get (aside from taking payment for work of course).

IrishGirlGamer · April 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Nic727 wrote: »

Hi,

I really hope quests with Dark Brotherhood will be better than in Skyrim... In Skyrim Its all about killing innocent people for no reason. I hope in TESO it will be different.

What do you think of Skyrim DB questline?

What would you like improved for TESO?

It's the Dark Brotherhood. The Dark Brotherhood.

Volkodav wrote: »

Well,it IS a DLC about murderers,actually.So,killing is the main part of it,I am sure.
There were reasons for killing people in Skyrim. It wasnt just for no good reason.People got in other people's way,or betrayed them,etc.

This.

I'm curious: what kind of believable quest line could even be written that would change a group of murdering, psychotic cultists, who worship to the corpse of a dead woman and who will kill whenever some poor soul initiates a particular ritual, into a feel-good group of heroes who only kill for ... reasons?

Meh. I think they went too soft on the Thieves Guild myself. They're thieves. They steal. Don't try to make it all ... nice.

I didn't like the way Skyrim ends up forcing you down the road of becoming a Nocturnal cultist. I really wish they had an option to tell Nocturnal to *** off, and continue forward with the quest. That quest felt too on the rails at the end, otherwise TG was great in Skyrim. The same though is true with DB. The choice between Penitus Oculus and the DB was not much of a choice. The Penitus Oculus option was just so bland, and really didn't offer as much action. The game already has more villainous gameplay without the DB and TG in the form of Daedric Relic quests, I couldn't understand why the heroic option wasn't more open. Dawnguard DLC did a much better job of balance in my view, and I felt it did a great job of luring the hero into becoming a Vampire despite his best desires, due to nature of the quest which I won't spoiler here. Dawnguard DLC was some of the best content of Skyrim, and so was Solstheim there.

The Thieves Guild in ESO doesn't seem soft to me. I have to say I liked the more mafia-style treatment they get in Skyrim, but I think the Guild itself should have more than one flavor. I like the Baandari theme, and I like the Grey Fox theme. I like the notion that not all thieves have to be the villain, or at least they can try to be the hero sometimes.

I can respect this but again I disagree.

I like the Bandari theme, both in style and design. But you said it best when you referenced organized crime. People shouldn't see the Thieves Guild as a group of heroes out to save them, but as a group of thugs to be feared and even hated. The first TG quests in Skyrim set that tone. Of course, ESO doesn't have to follow it and I don't "hate" the TG DLC, but a little less romanticism would have made the TG more realistically enjoyable for me.

Not everyone loved Vito Corleone. And by the end of the Godfather trilogy, Michael Corleone was not anything remotely close to a nice guy.

The Dark Brotherhood, on the other hand, is the Dark Brotherhood. I'm not being snarky, but really, it's a murdering group of villains. It's Lucien Lachance coming into your bedroom at night to whisper to you: "You sleep rather soundly for a murderer." And then he gives you a choice - one you can accept or reject.

The Dark Brotherhood is a child vampire luring people to their death. It's killing an old man in his sleep for no real reason. It should be a bit off-putting and more than a little creepy. It's dark world you're entering here, where any hope of forgiveness is left at the door of the sanctuary. This isn't the cheerleaders club. This is the club for people the cheerleaders hate and who hate them right back, and who dream of cutting them up into itty bitty pieces.

And yes it's a common theme throughout world literature. It's the choice to be evil, to seek it out because that's who your character is. It's Norman Bates. It's the narrator from A Cask of Amontillado.

It's Sarumon.

Even Joseph Campbell recognized that not every hero's journey takes them to paradise - and that not every hero wants that journey.

I agree the Dawnguard DLC was great, but they're two different story lines. Inherent in the vampiric story line is the idea of seduction into darkness. You're good ... but then you can't resist ... (although people, really, willpower!!) Again, it's also a common theme in literature and art, but it's a very, very different theme. It's the Phantom of the Opera ("turn your face away from the garish light of day, turn your thoughts away from cold unfeeling light ... and listen to the music of the night.") It's Severus Snape. This is Gollum.

Both are choices. One is a completely voluntary choice. But I wouldn't worry. I feel pretty certain that the Dark Brotherhood DLC will be sanitized for a player's emotional protection.

Abeille · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

It's the Phantom of the Opera ("turn your face away from the garish light of day, turn your thoughts away from cold unfeeling light ... and listen to the music of the night.")

I sang this bit out loud

I agree with everything you said, and it seems that they will tone down the Dark Brotherhood, unfortunately.

I did enjoy the TG, although the main quest, some of the repeatable quests and the Heists all targeted "bad people". At least some of the repeatable quests had "innocents" as targets, like merchants and entertainers. I do not want that for the Dark Brotherhood, though. I have a pretty crazy and murderous vampire that I made with this DLC in mind.

IrishGirlGamer · April 2016

Abeille wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

It's the Phantom of the Opera ("turn your face away from the garish light of day, turn your thoughts away from cold unfeeling light ... and listen to the music of the night.")

I sang this bit out loud

I sang it as I wrote it. I can't help it. Fifteen years since I first saw The Phantom on stage and I STILL think Christine should have ended up with The Phantom.

Seraseth · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

It's the Phantom of the Opera ("turn your face away from the garish light of day, turn your thoughts away from cold unfeeling light ... and listen to the music of the night.")

I sang this bit out loud

I sang it as I wrote it. I can't help it. Fifteen years since I first saw The Phantom on stage and I STILL think Christine should have ended up with The Phantom.

I thought I was the only one!

Abeille · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

It's the Phantom of the Opera ("turn your face away from the garish light of day, turn your thoughts away from cold unfeeling light ... and listen to the music of the night.")

I sang this bit out loud

I sang it as I wrote it. I can't help it. Fifteen years since I first saw The Phantom on stage and I STILL think Christine should have ended up with The Phantom.

I know, right?! Raoul is so bland!

I think The Phantom is a great example of how you can have a character do horrible things and still have the public sympathizing and cheering for them. ZOS could very well do this with the members of the Dark Brotherhood without watering everything down and minimizing their murderous behavior.

Silver_Strider · April 2016

I want an interesting twist to DB that doesn't involve paranoid assassins turning on one another, a revenge seeking individual or some rival gang fighting you for top dog.

Give me quests that requires more than simply killing a target but rather planting incriminating evidence to remove suspicion of DB involvement and make it seem like a domestic disturbance gone wrong.

Give me a character with this poor delusion of love that is killing people in a misguided attempt to impress his love interest.

Don't make the Leader of the DB some talkative person but rather have them unable to talk due to a botched assassination attempt or rival stabbing them in the throat.

Give me a story line that involves more than just a manhunt but rather an intricate web of misdirection that would make Mephala jealous. Hell, get Mephala involved into the story in some way (because more Daedra interactions are never a bad thing).

Just make it unique.

IrishGirlGamer · April 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I want an interesting twist to DB that doesn't involve paranoid assassins turning on one another, a revenge seeking individual or some rival gang fighting you for top dog.

Give me quests that requires more than simply killing a target but rather planting incriminating evidence to remove suspicion of DB involvement and make it seem like a domestic disturbance gone wrong.

Give me a character with this poor delusion of love that is killing people in a misguided attempt to impress his love interest.

Don't make the Leader of the DB some talkative person but rather have them unable to talk due to a botched assassination attempt or rival stabbing them in the throat.

Give me a story line that involves more than just a manhunt but rather an intricate web of misdirection that would make Mephala jealous. Hell, get Mephala involved into the story in some way (because more Daedra interactions are never a bad thing).

Just make it unique.

Very nice. All of it's nice, but I particularly liked this part:

"Don't make the Leader of the DB some talkative person but rather have them unable to talk due to a botched assassination attempt or rival stabbing them in the throat. "

Vaoh · April 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I never was a fan of the DB quest line in other ES games. I always felt like such a b****** doing them.

That 1 quest in Oblivion where the little old lady mistook me as a delivery service to send her children presents always killed me on the inside.

I'll have to do it in ESO because chances are high that there will be skill points involved and I'm in short supply.

Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion was awesome though! (oh, Lucien...)

I loved practically everything in Oblivion. My favorite TES game, either tied with or surpassing Morrowind imo.

If you don't agree with me, feel free to take up the argument with good ol' Glarthir. He'll even pay you Gold for it.... ugh

STEVIL · April 2016

dimensional wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

[
Meh. I think they went too soft on the Thieves Guild myself. They're thieves. They steal. Don't try to make it all ... nice.

I agree with everything you just posted, except for this. I mean I can see why you think that. The TG characters were painted in a very sympathetic light, and I really liked that. But if you wander around the Thieves Den, and talk to the random NPCs there and read the books, just about every single one of them admits to being a thief and loves the outlaw lifestyle. Some even try to evade questioning about their illicit activities. Even the main quest storyline reflects that their thievery comes with consequences (the Iron Wheel coming after them because of an alleged dowry heist).

Also most tip board repeatable boils down to swipe stuff from normal folks, sometimes to help the extortion end.

I got at best an anti-hero vibe.
If they had made the Iron Wheel more oppressive and corrupt they might hsve done a better job at good guy thieves but really TG was a vendetta or three wrapped in intrigues.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

I'm more concerned that DB will just be a rehash of these terrible dull thieves gulls quests that will be all about sneaking and hiding making a 5 minute job take 30 mins and then making you pay for it with a bounty.

I'd like to see options with current rewards (not punishments for not being sneaky) depending on the method you use. I mean, sneak in kill sneak out is one way of doing things but then so is an arrow from a vantage point, also if your "client" really wants to send a message kicking in the front door killing the guards, the target the targets family and his next door neighbours dog should get the point across.

I'm sure there are many that disagree with my opinion here but I'm just paying it won't be like thrives guild as I did 3 missions of that and haven't been back since due to it being mind numbingly boring.

TheShadowScout · April 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Your concept reminds me of Morrowind though, and I think for that reason alone it has some good merit. I just hope you could quit TG and join Iron Wheel if that option is given, even if it is mutually exclusive. As an aside I wish there were a monster-hunting guild that were diametrically opposed and therefore mutually exclusive to vampires and werewolves. I don't care what they would call it, but for now we can call it Dawnguard or VanHelsing.

Indeed that is one of the things I recall rather fondly about Morrowind, where you had to choose one of the three great houses to join. One out of three. And I would love to see such choices for ESO as well...

Like mentioned, if they ever made an "Iron Wheel" DLC, where characters that have not done the thieves guiold story (or left the theives guild through some respec-like option) join them in the aftermath of the TG storyline and have a questline at their homebase dealing with overzealous and corrupt officers... or keep the plot entirely seperate and have it be some other "justice" themed guild... the only point about it, it ought to be mutually exclusive with any "criminal" guild (both TG and DB), lock you out of outlaw refugees, but instead open up some "guard station" area where you can get daily "stop NPC crime" quests...
For one, I'd buy that DLC all on its own. For another, I'd just adore the idea if it got made...
(And it would leave them the option to add a PvP-element to justice in the future, should they ever change their minds about it. It needs not be a world PvP element... it could be a special PvP "crime city" area where "enforcers" go to "arrest criminals" and the "criminals" do their best to resist... like imperial city, but with new "faction" divide... enforcers on one side, thieves and assassins on the other, and people who are in neither of those guilds would be able to enter as neutral...)

Another "choices" thing I'd want for religion. Some way to declare your character for one of the divine or daedric powers... mutually exclusive with werewolf (which sort of is Hircine-themed already) and vampire (which requires you swearing off both aedra and daedra in its initial quest...)

IrishGirlGamer · April 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Your concept reminds me of Morrowind though, and I think for that reason alone it has some good merit. I just hope you could quit TG and join Iron Wheel if that option is given, even if it is mutually exclusive. As an aside I wish there were a monster-hunting guild that were diametrically opposed and therefore mutually exclusive to vampires and werewolves. I don't care what they would call it, but for now we can call it Dawnguard or VanHelsing.

...
Another "choices" thing I'd want for religion. Some way to declare your character for one of the divine or daedric powers... mutually exclusive with werewolf (which sort of is Hircine-themed already) and vampire (which requires you swearing off both aedra and daedra in its initial quest...)

I've had this thought for some time. This could be a rich area for development in ESO. Aside from the daedric princes, ESO could implement the Eight Divines, even followers to do their bidding and maybe even some short/repeatable quests.

But I'd really like to see them do more with the Temple. I would enjoy playing an Ordinator or a High Ordinator sworn to serve Almalexia herself. The tribunal is already included in the game; adding to their story line and developing side quests that enable a player join the temple would be a nice addition.

In general, I feel religion is an area that has been overlooked in ESO. As it currently stands, I really have no need to go a temple unless I want to reset skill points, etc.

C0wrex · April 2016

Man the Dark Brotehrhood in Oblivion was amazing. The mansion party quest was my favorite - seeing all the characters' reactions

)

Lucien Lachance and his voice actor. Damn were they amazing!

Svalinn · April 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually it would be nice if some sort of Knightly orders were available, and balance out the less than heroic options. Even the Fighters Guild are just a bunch of mercenaries - they aren't much better than the DB, they're just less sneaky about it.

If i recall correctly in skytim there's a "stendarr order" that was focused on hunting daedra and monsters... pretty much what the fighter guild does in ESO (one reason why i hated the fighter guild in ESO... it's totally "anti-lore" compared to the other ES games.. i have to keep telling myself that ESO is way in the past and thigs might be different for that reason).

I think that order wasn't playable in skyrim, it was just there doing their own stuff... but i'd like to see stuff like that in game.. maybe putting the "fighter guild" back to their real role...

Svalinn · April 2016

C0wrex wrote: »

Man the Dark Brotehrhood in Oblivion was amazing. The mansion party quest was my favorite - seeing all the characters' reactions )

To me the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion was FAR superior to a majority of stealth and killer based games out there xD

dimensional · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Actually it would be nice if some sort of Knightly orders were available, and balance out the less than heroic options. Even the Fighters Guild are just a bunch of mercenaries - they aren't much better than the DB, they're just less sneaky about it.

If i recall correctly in skytim there's a "stendarr order" that was focused on hunting daedra and monsters... pretty much what the fighter guild does in ESO (one reason why i hated the fighter guild in ESO... it's totally "anti-lore" compared to the other ES games.. i have to keep telling myself that ESO is way in the past and thigs might be different for that reason).

I think that order wasn't playable in skyrim, it was just there doing their own stuff... but i'd like to see stuff like that in game.. maybe putting the "fighter guild" back to their real role...

Actually in ESO The Fighters Guild themselves state that they only recently began taking contracts to kill daedra due to the planemeld, and that this isn't exactly normal operating procedure for them. Maybe that helps.

FENGRUSH · April 2016

Somebody asked about alternatives for DarkBhood if you werent a murdered and this line was used by one of the devs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrVLOvJFtzM

So perhaps they wont be innocent!

dimensional · April 2016

lol nice True Lies video

Svalinn · April 2016

dimensional wrote: »

Actually in ESO The Fighters Guild themselves state that they only recently began taking contracts to kill daedra due to the planemeld, and that this isn't exactly normal operating procedure for them. Maybe that helps.

Yeah i know.. but since accepting this would make the whole fighter guild in ESO totally suck for me... i just act as i didn't read it and make my own excuses :P

C0wrex · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

C0wrex wrote: »

Man the Dark Brotehrhood in Oblivion was amazing. The mansion party quest was my favorite - seeing all the characters' reactions )

To me the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion was FAR superior to a majority of stealth and killer based games out there xD

Agreed on this one!

) I really love the options you're given in killing your contracts

))

Lenikus · April 2016

You want the "Dark Brotherhood" a "Murder for Hire" organization, to have moral standards ?
...really?

Dude, you pay, they kill, It's that simple, the members have rules only relating to the organization itself, if you're out to kill a lady who runs an orphanage or an freakin' emperor, it's not your choice, it's the client's. He ordered you to kill, you obey.
Innocents, bad guys, we don't give a damm. You're nothing but a Problem Solver, if someone's problem happens to be another person, you'll charge them for solving that problem.

Don't drag 'oh but we are liek, good assassins murdering the bad and corrupt.
No one pays to kill the bad guys, actually, they are the ones hiring you.

Same with the thieves guild, they do have their honor codes and what not, but they are still overhyped burglars.

rhymer · April 2016

I think it is simply unfair - you are simply forced to join DB if you want to visit Anvil. Of course you can go there simply to enjoy the view but this place would be absolutely empty without a good storyline and even the strongest nostalgic feeling and a couple of side quests can't refill this void. I haven't joined DB since Daggerfall because I find them immoral, morbid and terrible, but now we just have no other choice in order to see the places we've missed so dearly for such a long time. We simply have no alternative.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

Must admit it would be nice to have flip sides of each faction with their own skill unique skills of which you can only have one side or the other but not both at the same time. Something like thieves or guards, dark brotherhood and another faction trying to counter the immoral acts. But as much as I'd like to see this I can't see it happening.