Seri wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If it were up to you, you would have real completion figures which you would cross with your player demographics and your target audience. You would also have shareholders to report to.
You would probably end up making the same decision as ZOS.

If all you were looking at was completion figures then I can understand why you might nerf. But when DPS are dying because they don't block untauntable attacks (eg, one of the bosses in vSpindle and DC) or stand in red without moving, or the tank runs out of stam because perma holding block + ransack is all they know), or the healer just spams BoL then it's not necessarily the content's fault.

Even with low DPS compared to the 'elites', vCoA (except perhaps HM) and vWGT (again, except HM) are definitely doable assuming that people actually learn the mechanics. vICP should be doable as long as your group has enough DPS to take out the flesh atros before enrage. There are people around who are willing to teach these too - I saw someone advertising a training run for vWGT (today's pledge) in Deshaan an hour ago.

This same argument of mechanics holds for Wrothgar world bosses. Learn the mechanics and what a large percentage of the population wants a group of 8+ to complete is doable either solo or duo. You might say 'CP! Gold V16 gear!' but this includes my mag sorc who was V10 with a whopping 1.3k (in Wrothar) spell dmg, 26k mag and 1.8k regen has completed NB and EDU solo. Can't burn through the mechanics with those stats (from memory, just the boss wave/round of EDU took me 9 minutes).

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I often try to convince my guildies to run normal MoL for fun or try and work on vMoL downscaled to V1, to no avail. I personally don't get it why people want to try the hardest level or not at all.

^^ And that I think is the other half the problem. People don't want to run the easy version because it's considered the weaker choice but then blame the hard content's fault for being too hard?

As correct as your reasoning actually is, it includes many "IF". If people learned to play, if people learned the mechanics, if, if, if... Reality is, they don't, and ZOS has to deal with that. If people want easy, ZOS must provide easy.
Look at the incredible success of Wrothgar world bosses. As you mention, they're soloable / duo-able, BUT people just love to organize big zergs to nuke them down and have so much fun doing so that they never get tired of it. I personally think it's quite boring but I still think the way people get so efficiently organized in the zone without any ingame system supporting it is very pleasant.

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BlackEar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

^^ This.
Most good to excellent players that I know still run those dungeons for various reasons, even though they're boringly easy for them. Helm farming, XP farming for CP, fun with guildies, helping lowbies, rerolling, whatever. Or simply habit : dailies must be done, full stop.
They complain it's boring, but they still run this content. Besides, it's obviously easier to spend 10 minutes running boringly easy content than 2 hours of frustratingly difficult content. Also, there are plenty of ways to make easy runs fun - run naked, solo, duo, 4dps, 4tanks, beat the clock, whatever. Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier.

And last but not least, there are more average/bad players than excellent/good players so it's more important that the former get what they need rather than the latter. Else all this wouldn't even be an issue.

Only for leveling undaunted. My last 3 toons are about to get undaunted 9. After this there is no reason for me to do them again. Running with 4 DPS, you can do this since 1.6 hits live, we now run with 2 DPS, but thats not as much fun as doing a hard dungeon with tank/dps/heal. It's only frustrating bc even then those dungeons are easy.
You said: "Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier." That's false, you can scale content down without that much impact on your gear. Helmets can be bought at the vendor, Shoulders scale to your level. Setitems from old dungeons are useless and the sets from vICP/vWGT can be obtained by opening the trophy vaults.
There needs o be content where you have to improve and get better. Only one or two dungeons....

All Content will get easier over time, you get more CP, more gear and so on. They will be easy, even if ZOS won't nerf them.

BTW: XP farming in dungeons???? WTF? XP is horrible in there

Destruent wrote: »

You said: "Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier." That's false, you can scale content down without that much impact on your gear. Helmets can be bought at the vendor, Shoulders scale to your level. Setitems from old dungeons are useless and the sets from vICP/vWGT can be obtained by opening the trophy vaults.

Yes, you're correct. But as I mentioned earlier (or in a similar thread) most people are reluctant to downscale an instance. I don't understand that behaviour but that's how it is :-(

Destruent wrote: »

BTW: XP farming in dungeons???? WTF? XP is horrible in there

The dungeons themselves, yes. But the daily undaunted quests give XP and so does the "random daily" from the LFG tool.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BlackEar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

^^ This.
Most good to excellent players that I know still run those dungeons for various reasons, even though they're boringly easy for them. Helm farming, XP farming for CP, fun with guildies, helping lowbies, rerolling, whatever. Or simply habit : dailies must be done, full stop.
They complain it's boring, but they still run this content. Besides, it's obviously easier to spend 10 minutes running boringly easy content than 2 hours of frustratingly difficult content. Also, there are plenty of ways to make easy runs fun - run naked, solo, duo, 4dps, 4tanks, beat the clock, whatever. Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier.

And last but not least, there are more average/bad players than excellent/good players so it's more important that the former get what they need rather than the latter. Else all this wouldn't even be an issue.

The way to make difficult content easier is to teach people about how it should be done, to encourage both teaching and learning. I mean I get your argument that you've completed it but didn't get as much enjoyment of it as you'd prefer. That's okay. But I for one can't remember last time I entered Wayrest. ...I think it was about 2 months ago when I pugged a daily for fun and got a group with a "tank" with 18k health and no taunt and 2 templar dps who managed to die while standing in my healing springs on every trash pack...they also refused to answer any questions/suggestions such as "have you guys run this before?" "do we have a tank?" "do you know this fight's mechanics?" "try not to stand in front of this boss, he can 1shot you"...I can see why that type of players would struggle in ICP. We barely made Wayrest as it was, at some point I was pretty much soloing last boss.

...anyway, back to the teaching point...I was running ICP with a pug last night, we got to Council eventually but then people had to go because it'd just been so long. I agree with what's been said, let's introduce save feature. It can take forever and it sucks when you have RL responsibilities to tend to or just get tired from staring at the monitor for hours. Introduce SAVE FEATURE for dungeons and Trials(disable leaderboard for those who use it, similar to vMA).

Let's encourage people to learn and help others learn. Why do we have to jump down each other throat's about how the game should be 100% to our, and ONLY our taste? People like me might be minority but they exist. We also have paid for the game. Why shouldn't we have ANY fun content? I know plenty of people like me who have already left because there's nothing to do pretty much. Some of them were friends, I miss them. I know plenty of people who are getting increasingly bored, 2 manning and soloing those dungeons and running them naked and whynot. Yeah we can have fun that way still(probably even less so after next nerf...I mean 2 manning CoH isn't even fun anymore), but why can't other people adjust their playstyle instead if they want to be able to easily complete just THREE dungeons in the game?

We wiped so much in ICP yesterday. First we had a tank who refused to block on Overfiend and pretty much got oneshot. When asked if he was blocking he said he was and ended up dying while standing in my Healing Springs repeatedly, after which he dropped group. Then we got a dps who queued as all 3 roles to get in and was like "Are you a dps? We need a tank. - let's just play". Had to kick him. Then got someone who was v14 and for the first time in the dungeon but guess what, he tried to listen to instructions and we made it. We have also wiped at Ibomez(first time ever I actually did full mechanics - assigned people to throw bombs in different directions etc ), Eye boss(had to assign people to specific ads in order to keepn them interrupted and ended up 2 manning the fight with tank because dps died and non-stop cc didn't let us res pretty much), Abomination(just practice mostly) and then Council(...I haven't realized til today WHY people don't kill healer and necromancer first...)...
In the end it did take atrociously long and I understand having to go(save feature would indeed be nice) but I'm fairly sure people didn't leave because we couldn't beat it(we were progressing) or because I was an elitist arse(I wasn't). I like the sense of achievement you can get when you gradually progress. I haven't had it for a while running with friends because not much left to "progress" to. I can't promise the guys I ran with will ever go back in there again but if they will they will know that place is not impossible by any means and they will have some idea about the mechanics(up to last boss anyway).

I don't understand why like the only instances in the game when you can actually learn something and feel like you progress with your character need yet another nerf.

@Elloa, thank you, I appreciate responses like that beyond words. Good to know there are actually non-hardcore people out there who like there being some challenge

On a different note, I do agree there needs to be more information regarding dungeon difficulty somewhere. I can see how trying to do your first ever Undaunted pledge and stumbling into an ICP pug would be frustrating. They are obviously not on the same level of difficulty as others, perhaps instead of nerfing them so they are we can just like...warn people they're hard? Crazy idea I know. I also wouldn't being opposed to having them removed from Undaunted dailies. Personally I like them being here, it's easy to get a group on these days and you can meet new people that way a lot of the time; plus I do think in encouraging players to do challenging content is a great thing, but if all it does is encourage players to ask for nerfs then yes, sure, remove it from the rotation by all means.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BlackEar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

^^ This.
Most good to excellent players that I know still run those dungeons for various reasons, even though they're boringly easy for them. Helm farming, XP farming for CP, fun with guildies, helping lowbies, rerolling, whatever. Or simply habit : dailies must be done, full stop.
They complain it's boring, but they still run this content. Besides, it's obviously easier to spend 10 minutes running boringly easy content than 2 hours of frustratingly difficult content. Also, there are plenty of ways to make easy runs fun - run naked, solo, duo, 4dps, 4tanks, beat the clock, whatever. Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier.

And last but not least, there are more average/bad players than excellent/good players so it's more important that the former get what they need rather than the latter. Else all this wouldn't even be an issue.

They should add timers or leaderboards to vet dungeons so at least people can run it to better themselves. When I said I only do it with guildies it is rarely because they don't really want to either and if it is for gold they just pug it. I got the sets though so no reason for me to go back there again. I don't think there is anything wrong with those vet dungeons, I just enjoyed that there were 2 vet dungeons that I thought was worth doing for the fun and now they might get nerfed so it isn't fun. I will still do them for the loot.

Function wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BlackEar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

^^ This.
Most good to excellent players that I know still run those dungeons for various reasons, even though they're boringly easy for them. Helm farming, XP farming for CP, fun with guildies, helping lowbies, rerolling, whatever. Or simply habit : dailies must be done, full stop.
They complain it's boring, but they still run this content. Besides, it's obviously easier to spend 10 minutes running boringly easy content than 2 hours of frustratingly difficult content. Also, there are plenty of ways to make easy runs fun - run naked, solo, duo, 4dps, 4tanks, beat the clock, whatever. Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier.

And last but not least, there are more average/bad players than excellent/good players so it's more important that the former get what they need rather than the latter. Else all this wouldn't even be an issue.

Actually there is, by learning the content. People expecting to go into a dungeon and having the complete spoon fed to them is toxic. Everyone has the ability to complete this content, just only some actually put in the effort to do so.

This.
Besides...
For ICP, I think the lowest dps was 15k at release and ~10k after nerfs? Or 12k?
And there's usually only one at time, except for 1 skippable trash pull.
You can avoid them from spawning at the flesh sculptor boss (except the1st one) by throwing grenades at zombies.
Planar inhibitor just requires coordination as well... Portals only have 4k hp and are esily killable by any spell. As long as you keep killing the portals and teammates grab the pinion fast enough (to avoid high damage dot), you can kill the boss slowly but surely.
Lord warden is not hard if you dont die at the darklight burst (doesnt require high dps) and prevent him from placing bubbles at the middle of the room (doesnt require high dps).
For Kena its a bit tricky with low dps, but as long as peple dont stand in stupid and healer cleanses the dot (it makes life easier, so you wont die on jumps etc) she's killable.
None of those require excellent gear and dps. Theyre easier if you have them, but entirely possible with average gear. I said that in another thread, but I will repeat - they were doable for my wood elf magblade with vr14 gear and 300 cps at the release. The dungeons were harder back then as well.

@anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@KoshkaMurka :

Just count how many "if" there are in your post.
It's not difficult IF.... a hundred of conditions are fulfilled. Which aren't.

The primary condition being that people put effort into learning it.

But that's precisely what people don't want and you have no control over this.

There's no "hundred contitions". There's actually only one condition - play as a group.
It its too difficult, there's 99% solo content.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

Wow you really are that arrogant, I would never do this regardless of demographics... AGAIN remember this is not a discussion on the difficulty for the hole game, just a very small part of it and I would choose to make the elite players(as they are named on forums) happy with this small % of content intead of loosing it. How can you possibly be so arrogant to make a statement on what I would do? Your so called demographics of the game remain unknown as of now.

It's not arrogant to specify that people at ZOS have A LOT more criteria and constraints to take into consideration than you have.

Yeah, but why do you think that all their decisions are wise and actually based on something?
What about the decision to no longer make female meshes for armor, is it also "Zos knows better" case?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

Wow you really are that arrogant, I would never do this regardless of demographics... AGAIN remember this is not a discussion on the difficulty for the hole game, just a very small part of it and I would choose to make the elite players(as they are named on forums) happy with this small % of content intead of loosing it. How can you possibly be so arrogant to make a statement on what I would do? Your so called demographics of the game remain unknown as of now.

It's not arrogant to specify that people at ZOS have A LOT more criteria and constraints to take into consideration than you have. Including player demographics which is unknown to us but known to ZOS.

That's not what I said was arrogant at all, maybe you should read your own post. You where on about what decision i would make, based on the info ZOS have, that you can't even be sure what is and if they are basing their decision on that or not.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Yeah, but why do you think that all their decisions are wise and actually based on something?
What about the decision to no longer make female meshes for armor, is it also "Zos knows better" case?

Actually yes that's my assumption. Most decisions from ZOS sound consistent and clever to me, so I tend to trust them to know what they're doing. That's my feeling and of course it's up to you to feel differently.

There's only so far two design options from ZOS that I clearly don't understand and disagree with, and that's the no text chat for consoles (they've changed their mind on that one) and the no training dummies. Aside from these two, all other stuff makes sense in my opinion, regardless if it fits my own playstyle or not.

I can't answer your question about female armor, I think they look awesome as they are for most of them, I didn't notice the change you mention and frankly I don't have any opinion at all about it. Not that it doesn't matter, but I just have no opinion.

Can I borrow your pink glasses?
This Zos' decision causes serious bugs on female character models:

Nice decision, eh?
There's a topic about it - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/257543/important-update-zos-please-reconsider-your-decision-to-no-longer-make-female-light-armor/
Check the pictures
I understand that you probably dont care about their balance oversights, but visual problems should be clear for you.

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@KoshkaMurka :

Just count how many "if" there are in your post.
It's not difficult IF.... a hundred of conditions are fulfilled. Which aren't.

The primary condition being that people put effort into learning it.

But that's precisely what people don't want and you have no control over this.

Well yes. IF people want to do it, then they should put effort into learning how to do it. If people don't want to put any effort, they should play graphical novels. There's nothing wrong with those, they can be really awesome too, and all you have to do is occasionally click "continue" or choose a conversation option - no effort included. But this is not a graphical novel. This is a game centered around fighting. Fighting means effort of some sort at least, don't you agree?

Do you seriously want this game to be like a graphical novel? Click click click dialogue, enter a room for the quest, mobs insta die, press a few "interact" buttons, click click click more dialogue?

Good point!
There's plenty of games in this genre, by the way. But the elder scrolls have never been one of them.

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@KoshkaMurka :

Just count how many "if" there are in your post.
It's not difficult IF.... a hundred of conditions are fulfilled. Which aren't.

The primary condition being that people put effort into learning it.

But that's precisely what people don't want and you have no control over this.

Well yes. IF people want to do it, then they should put effort into learning how to do it. If people don't want to put any effort, they should play graphical novels. There's nothing wrong with those, they can be really awesome too, and all you have to do is occasionally click "continue" or choose a conversation option - no effort included. But this is not a graphical novel. This is a game centered around fighting. Fighting means effort of some sort at least, don't you agree?

Do you seriously want this game to be like a graphical novel? Click click click dialogue, enter a room for the quest, mobs insta die, press a few "interact" buttons, click click click more dialogue?

Personally I'd like that, (I'm happier farming, exploring, reading or solving puzzles than fighting) but I agree it's not what ESO is meant to be.
As to the question whether fighting should include effort, well you can agree or disagree, I think the answer is not *that* obvious. Some, and apparently many, people just like to kill stuff without challenge, easily and mechanically, that's a fact.

Look at how people are grinding... ok, they do that for levelling and CP, but they could also do that by actually playing and they choose to grind. If ZOS had set up an area with "aggro-AOE-cash XP-rinse-repeat" as basic mechanics, everyone would complain that it is stupidly easy and boring. However, many players play that way.

@anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@KoshkaMurka :

Just count how many "if" there are in your post.
It's not difficult IF.... a hundred of conditions are fulfilled. Which aren't.

The primary condition being that people put effort into learning it.

But that's precisely what people don't want and you have no control over this.

Well yes. IF people want to do it, then they should put effort into learning how to do it. If people don't want to put any effort, they should play graphical novels. There's nothing wrong with those, they can be really awesome too, and all you have to do is occasionally click "continue" or choose a conversation option - no effort included. But this is not a graphical novel. This is a game centered around fighting. Fighting means effort of some sort at least, don't you agree?

Do you seriously want this game to be like a graphical novel? Click click click dialogue, enter a room for the quest, mobs insta die, press a few "interact" buttons, click click click more dialogue?

Personally I'd like that, (I'm happier farming, exploring, reading or solving puzzles than fighting) but I agree it's not what ESO is meant to be.
As to the question whether fighting should include effort, well you can agree or disagree, I think the answer is not *that* obvious. Some, and apparently many, people just like to kill stuff without challenge, easily and mechanically, that's a fact.

Look at how people are grinding... ok, they do that for levelling and CP, but they could also do that by actually playing and they choose to grind. If ZOS had set up an area with "aggro-AOE-cash XP-rinse-repeat" as basic mechanics, everyone would complain that it is stupidly easy and boring. However, many players play that way.

There's people who dont want a challenge, and they have 99% of the game.
You're right that everyone should have the right to play as they want. But that means that the game should have diverse content, and tuning everything to one specific level to please one specific group is terribly wrong. And yeah, even if that level would be hardcore, that would be still wrong from my point of view.