Impenetrable trait math help please

Vangy · March 2016

Fellow pvp-ers,

For a long time, ive been running with 8ximpen on my DK. Ive noticed the damage reduction I get is pretty significant. However, Id like to know the math behind it. For example, ignoring resistances and penetration and cyro debuffs while also assuming base crit damage multiplier of 1.5 ( i believe)

Lets say a player hits me with ability x for 7000 damage, and lets say this attack crits. Without impen, this would be 7000 x 1.5 = 10.5k
So with 8ximpen ( this would be about 42% crit damage reduction i believe) and this is where i get confused.

Would the resulting damage be 10.5k x .58 = 6.09k?

Or;

7 k hits for full and then the damage reduction applies only to the bonus damage granted by crit;
Ie: (10.5 - 7 ) * .58 + 7k = 9.03 k?

Hopefully someone out there can help me out with this! ty in advance!

Edit: logically I feel option 2 should be more probable since option 1 would result in a crit doing less damage then a regular hit.

lolo_01b16_ESO · March 2016

You can't reduce damage of a crit below the damage of a normal attack with impen. If you stack enough impen, crits and non crits will hit for the same, but if you then add an additional piece of impen, nothing changes. (At least that is how it worked pre thieves guild)
Also it stacks additive with other crit damage modifiers, so putting cp in impen and elfborn just exactly counters each other.

Jade1986 · March 2016

The better question would be how many impen do you need to make crits land as normal hits. I was wondering this myself. If I don't need 8 x impen, that would be good to know.

Vangy · March 2016

laced wrote: »

The better question would be how many impen do you need to make crits land as normal hits. I was wondering this myself. If I don't need 8 x impen, that would be good to know.

From what ive gathered so far, even x8 impen wont get you to cap ( which i believe is 60% crit damage reduction).

Jade1986 · March 2016

Vangy wrote: »

laced wrote: »

The better question would be how many impen do you need to make crits land as normal hits. I was wondering this myself. If I don't need 8 x impen, that would be good to know.

From what ive gathered so far, even x8 impen wont get you to cap ( which i believe is 60% crit damage reduction).

Shame. I would love to use some divines for my tank, but I guess I cant

leepalmer95 · March 2016

Doesn't a gold impen give 3.7% reduction?

Also your doing the times wrong ^^

With 42% reduction instead of 1.5x it would be 1.08x

So 1.08 x 7000 ^^

DannyLV702 · March 2016

Just last night I was thinking of asking this in the forums, so I'm glad you did. Hopefully more people add to this and help me understand more how it works

Vangy · March 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Doesn't a gold impen give 3.7% reduction?

Also your doing the times wrong ^^

With 42% reduction instead of 1.5x it would be 1.08x

So 1.08 x 7000 ^^

WOAH wait,

I always thought the game would calculate how much damage a crit would do, then reduce it by the impen;

Ie: a 7k damage that crits at a base of 1.5 x damage = 10.5k
then the damage reduction is applied to the extra damage ie : 10.5 k - 7k = 3.5k
3.5k x (1 - damage reduction), in our case 3.5k x .58 = 2.03 k extra damage
so the final hit would be 7k + 2.08k = 9.08k

But it seems im doing this wrong and its just as simple as their bonus multiplier just gets subtracted directly,
ie 1.5 crit damage modifier - damage reduction from impen; ie with 42% reduction just simply becomes 1.5 - .42 = 1.08
and then this is applied to the damage ;

ie: 7 k x 1.08 = 7.56 !!!

No wonder impen seems to be so awesome for me lol.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · March 2016

Take the critical resistance from your character info, divide by 66 (66 ~ 1% crit damage reduction, more or less). Let's say I have 2508 / 66 = 37, which means any critical hit damage is reduced by 37%.

@Crown made a post about it that I can't find right now, but iirc those 37% reduce the ciritcal damage modifier to 13% (have the spreadsheet bokmarked at home, can't check it right now). So you'd need ~3300 critical resist to negate the basic critical damage increase everyone has, which can be increased through mundus stones, NB passives, CP passives.

8x gold impen = 2000 resist, 25% from CP = 1650 resist. So the maximum you can get is 3650 critical resist, which equals ~55% crit damage reduction.

The maximum crit damage modifier you can get is much higher: 0.5 base, 0.1 NB passive, 0.25 CP passive, 0.12 mundus stone (which can be increased using divine trait).

Hope I didn't screw the math up

leepalmer95 · March 2016

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Take the critical resistance from your character info, divide by 66 (66 ~ 1% crit damage reduction, more or less). Let's say I have 2508 / 66 = 37, which means any critical hit damage is reduced by 37%.

@Crown made a post about it that I can't find right now, but iirc those 37% reduce the ciritcal damage modifier to 13% (have the spreadsheet bokmarked at home, can't check it right now). So you'd need ~3300 critical resist to negate the basic critical damage increase everyone has, which can be increased through mundus stones, NB passives, CP passives.

8x gold impen = 2000 resist, 25% from CP = 1650 resist. So the maximum you can get is 3650 critical resist, which equals ~55% crit damage reduction.

The maximum crit damage modifier you can get is much higher: 0.5 base, 0.1 NB passive, 0.25 CP passive, 0.12 mundus stone (which can be increased using divine trait).

Hope I didn't screw the math up

The highest Crit mod should be 1.5 + 0.1(nb/temp passive) + 0.25(cp) + 0.19 (Shadow mundus with full divines)

So the highest should be 2.04 or 204%.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · March 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Take the critical resistance from your character info, divide by 66 (66 ~ 1% crit damage reduction, more or less). Let's say I have 2508 / 66 = 37, which means any critical hit damage is reduced by 37%.

@Crown made a post about it that I can't find right now, but iirc those 37% reduce the ciritcal damage modifier to 13% (have the spreadsheet bokmarked at home, can't check it right now). So you'd need ~3300 critical resist to negate the basic critical damage increase everyone has, which can be increased through mundus stones, NB passives, CP passives.

8x gold impen = 2000 resist, 25% from CP = 1650 resist. So the maximum you can get is 3650 critical resist, which equals ~55% crit damage reduction.

The maximum crit damage modifier you can get is much higher: 0.5 base, 0.1 NB passive, 0.25 CP passive, 0.12 mundus stone (which can be increased using divine trait).

Hope I didn't screw the math up

The highest Crit mod should be 1.5 + 0.1(nb/temp passive) + 0.25(cp) + 0.19 (Shadow mundus with full divines)

So the highest should be 2.04 or 204%.

204% of the base damage, correct.

Draxys · March 2016

I believe @Crown has done the math and testing behind impen and can probably share his mathy knowledge

Vangy · March 2016

Thanks guys for helping me out! I think im a lot more clear on how this works now!

sluice · March 2016

Here is Crown's Impenetrable calculation

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · March 2016

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

DannyLV702 · March 2016

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

leepalmer95 · March 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Morozov · March 2016

Crown has a spreadsheet with the impen math stuffs on it....If we all focus our minds and vision him he shall appear....

I will draw the Keltic runes on the ground and we will all need to chant together.......light the candles and repeat after me...

@Crown

"BRING US YOUR STATS, OH GIVER OF THE AP'S"

"WE NEED YOUR LINKS!"

sluice · March 2016

Morozov wrote: »

Crown has a spreadsheet with the impen math stuffs on it....If we all focus our minds and vision him he shall appear....

I will draw the Keltic runes on the ground and we will all need to chant together.......light the candles and repeat after me...

@Crown

"BRING US YOUR STATS, OH GIVER OF THE AP'S"

"WE NEED YOUR LINKS!"

I already had posted the link in a previous post...
Here it is again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ktbYDsiyI7W6v5k2JFSHJPSUw5p0RRaIW_-K3MBIbr8/edit#gid=1664407611

Crown · March 2016

Morozov wrote: »

If we all focus our minds and vision him he shall appear....!"

Behold! The Crown hath smiled upon thee and giveth to thee the link to the place of learning: https://darkelves.com The second on Defence contains that which thou seeketh.

DannyLV702 · April 2016

God damn I wish I knew what every one of those numbers meant....

Lexxypwns · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Impen is currently BiS for all gear slots in pvp for non-sorc or blazing shield healthplars.

Vangy · April 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Impen is currently BiS for all gear slots in pvp for non-sorc or blazing shield healthplars.

QFT

Kas · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Impen is currently BiS for all gear slots in pvp for non-sorc or blazing shield healthplars.

almost always. you can always argue about some infused pieces if you think you'll be affected by shields a lot. you already mention sorcs but some magicka NBs rely heavily on healing ward (and harness sometimes) and while many DKs use igneous shield mostly for the mending buff and stam restore, it's still a factor of their effective HP. Barrier is far less popular but still exists and some (albeit few) groups run bone shield + synergy.

further, some healers run the transmutation set and armor mitigation is no joke, either. in some cases a reinforced heavy chest (or also a shield with 75 CP invested in the tree, e.g., because you get a lot of crit resist from CPs) can mean more mitigation than an additional piece of impen. especially so against opponents who already stepped back on the crit chance because many hard targets already runlots of impen.

imho this makes it incredibly hard to say something easy and effective about how much impen you should have. however, it's almost certainly better than divines on anything other than a sorc fully committed into shields.

Lexxypwns · April 2016

Kas wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

So for us laypeople who had to take 2 years of remedial math in college, how many pieces of Impenetrable gear would be optimal for a focused DPS build?

This is kinda what I wanted to ask lol

For pvp i'd like go go 4/5.

4 is optimal for dps, if you go 3 of the big pieces for the enchant bonuses, make sure you put enough into the resistant cp and at least make sure your small pieces are impen.

Impen is currently BiS for all gear slots in pvp for non-sorc or blazing shield healthplars.

almost always. you can always argue about some infused pieces if you think you'll be affected by shields a lot. you already mention sorcs but some magicka NBs rely heavily on healing ward (and harness sometimes) and while many DKs use igneous shield mostly for the mending buff and stam restore, it's still a factor of their effective HP. Barrier is far less popular but still exists and some (albeit few) groups run bone shield + synergy.

further, some healers run the transmutation set and armor mitigation is no joke, either. in some cases a reinforced heavy chest (or also a shield with 75 CP invested in the tree, e.g., because you get a lot of crit resist from CPs) can mean more mitigation than an additional piece of impen. especially so against opponents who already stepped back on the crit chance because many hard targets already runlots of impen.

imho this makes it incredibly hard to say something easy and effective about how much impen you should have. however, it's almost certainly better than divines on anything other than a sorc fully committed into shields.

I play a magblade, without impen you're far too squishy. Transmutation doesn't have 100% uptime because you have to be missing health to proc the bonus.

An argument can be made for reinforced on shield, if you've got the shield expert passive. I can't personally see why you'd go infused, the extra stats aren't nearly as valuable as impen imo. Remember that most people have minimum 32% crit chance because of basic passives, more if they run hundings, julianos, vicious death, etc. Also, since the fotm bomb blades are typically running shadow stone, there's no justification to not run impen imo.

leepalmer95 · April 2016

Templars + Nb's will have at least around 75% extra dmg when crit even if their sustain builds because of 10% class passive + easily 10-15% in crit dmg.

I'd say go full impen or as much as your willing to give up, unless your sorc.

A gold Impen trait gives you 3.7% reduction.
A gold divine trait gives you 7.5% mundus boost which if your serpant or atro is like 10 extra regen...
A gold infused gives you 20% extra glyph stats, so if it's a gold v16 mag/stam enchant it's around 200~ extra?

So basically what do you want? What do you feel is better?

3.7% crit dmg reduction
200 extra stam/mag
10 regen, 8 dmg, 1% extra crit chance or dmg.

It's quite clear what is the most beneficial.

caeliusstarbreaker · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Templars + Nb's will have at least around 75% extra dmg when crit even if their sustain builds because of 10% class passive + easily 10-15% in crit dmg.

I'd say go full impen or as much as your willing to give up, unless your sorc.

A gold Impen trait gives you 3.7% reduction.
A gold divine trait gives you 7.5% mundus boost which if your serpant or atro is like 10 extra regen...
A gold infused gives you 20% extra glyph stats, so if it's a gold v16 mag/stam enchant it's around 200~ extra?

So basically what do you want? What do you feel is better?

3.7% crit dmg reduction
200 extra stam/mag
10 regen, 8 dmg, 1% extra crit chance or dmg.

It's quite clear what is the most beneficial.

2 gold big piece divines on a regen stone will net you about 50 extra regen.

Waffennacht · April 2016

3.7% crit reduction = 1.9ish% long run damage mitigation right?

It's mathematically just slightly more mitigation than damage provided by it's counter part.

I do think, however, like if you have... 5% mitigation, why bother adding like even 5% to that? Glass cannon should still go all out offensively imo.

leepalmer95 · April 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Templars + Nb's will have at least around 75% extra dmg when crit even if their sustain builds because of 10% class passive + easily 10-15% in crit dmg.

I'd say go full impen or as much as your willing to give up, unless your sorc.

A gold Impen trait gives you 3.7% reduction.
A gold divine trait gives you 7.5% mundus boost which if your serpant or atro is like 10 extra regen...
A gold infused gives you 20% extra glyph stats, so if it's a gold v16 mag/stam enchant it's around 200~ extra?

So basically what do you want? What do you feel is better?

3.7% crit dmg reduction
200 extra stam/mag
10 regen, 8 dmg, 1% extra crit chance or dmg.

It's quite clear what is the most beneficial.

2 gold big piece divines on a regen stone will net you about 50 extra regen.

Base regen is 210, each gold gives you 7.5% so two would give 15%. 210 x 1.15 = 241.5 , so 31.5 regen so basically each piece gives around 16 regen.

So 16 regen or 3.7% crit dmg recuction?

3.7>16 by far.