The justice system has a huge hole right in the middle of it, and it is the fact that half of the system was taken down abruptly, leaving the players looking at each others asking is that it? Is this what the justice system is all about? Commit a crime and try to get away with it?

Take as an example the OP video, around 2:30 when his character commits a crime, and waits for the guards to respond - notice how other players come close, draw their weapons, heal him, desperately try to interact - it is astonishing; they can't do a thing about what is going on, andI have seen this happen every time and it is a big let down.

People arguing that "balance" and "rebalance" issues would make it difficult are ignoring that it is already broken, that every vendor cache is cyclically assaulted in the plain light of day, that there are dead bodies all around, with the murderers respawning to murder again and be pursued by the guards, to finally get killed and respawn to murder another bunch of NPCs until the guards shows up and Sunday afternoons is just about that in the Daggerfall plaza.

Then, yes this is quite cool, makes for the Daggerfall lore but, it totally ruins it when you have the murderer almost instantly resurrected and the murdered NPC stepping over his own dead body a minute later, or piles of cloned dead bodies.

The so-called justice system is terrible: crime is just about rewarding you for breaking the game because there is, right now, no justice at all!

If people don't want to take part on the PvP instance of the justice system, then simply stay away from the vendors cache, avoid to death killing a complete harmless NPC or plan your acts accordingly.

I don't want this game to be about PvP, to be about committing crimes or preying on low-level players characters who are never safe, but ESO is intended to offer a believable experience with aspects of action, realism, TES lore and immersion - all combined in an MMO game, but having that feature taken out, alone, ruins half of the other elements. How about that in terms of "balance"?

The idea has been canned. Forget it!

this was intended to be a pvp aspect of the TG dlc. not a pve one. in fact it would have been the only new addition for pvpers and the rest for pve. don't be so selfish and cry about not being able to participate in justice system because you don't wanna pvp. The entire patch is PVE. smh. this is why the voice of PVErs ruins it for the pvper. you don't hear us saying I want to be able to pvp in fungal grotto or in DSA.

Tandor wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

If people don't want to take part on the PvP instance of the justice system, then simply stay away from the vendors cache, avoid to death killing a complete harmless NPC or plan your acts accordingly.

Please be so kind as to explain why PvEers should have to decline to participate in PvE content in order to avoid being ganked by PvPers in PvE areas because they committed PvE crimes.

The only argument PvPers have been able to put up in this and countless other similar threads as to why PvEers should accept PvP penalties for committing PvE crimes in PvE areas is that if they don't like it they should elect to miss out on PvE content in PvE areas. It is an argument without any semblance of credibility. PvEers have said they have no problem with PvP in PvP areas, including an extension of the present Justice System to include PvP in Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Needless to say, having additional PvP content in areas where the targets will be fellow PvPers rather than reluctant PvEers is not acceptable to PvPers, so ZOS took the sensible decision to provide PvP and PvE content in separate zones from here on. Accept it, move on, and help shape the new PvP content that we know is coming.

Sounds like nobody wants a high-level character getting on you while you exploit an extremely low-level NPC with barely any AI. And that people are complaining about the game lacking consequences to your acts when it seems that everybody actually just want to murder, steal, and be left alone with a system so stupid you can do this all day until you grow bored of it and come rant at the forums that the game is too easy that an 8-year-old kid can get around.

Also, I don't see this argument as a PvP vs PvE battle, rather that this game needs desperately some counter measure to the criminal activity that was unleashed with the system implementation. This is not a justice system, this is criminal liberty, it ruins immersion, it breaks the game in many ways that I'd rather have it removed because it doesn't fit. NPCs lack reasonable AI in a so severe way that having people exploiting them won't help balance the game either, and people won't stop because it is easy peach.

This subject has turned into a PvP vs PvE dispute and this is really unfair. This is not about being able to obliterate people in a plaza(I'd get my a** kicked every time, believe me), but keep a more civilized manner in certain areas or you'll get yourself in trouble and this seem perfectly reasonable in terms of RPG, realism, immersion, MMOs and Elder Scrolls. If you don't mind I'd like to know what are your ideas to stop people from brainless farm market strongboxes, murder count, or stop NPCs from stepping in their own dead bodies all of the time because this is what the game is all about now, and I mean the PvE areas, and it is frustrating.

BenLocoDete wrote: »

This subject has turned into a PvP vs PvE dispute and this is really unfair.

There's nothing unfair about it. It's what happens when you try to introduce PvP into PvE activity in PvE areas.

The good thing is that with ZOS having realised from the IC discussions here that mixing PvE and PvP was a massive mistake not to be repeated with the Justice System in the PvE open world, every time threads like this are resurrected and the whole PvE/PvP confrontation continued, their reasoning for abandoning the addition of PvP to PvE activities in PvE areas is underlined.

As I never tire of saying, I'm all for PvP provided it is in PvP areas, and I'm all for PvPers contributing to the shaping of the known additional PvP content, just as I'm all for ZOS keeping the two playstyles separate. No good was ever going to come from imposing PvP penalties on PvE crimes in PvE areas, but in any event that particular ship has sailed and its supporters have every opportunity to shape the other ways in which their particular playstyle is going to be enhanced without detriment to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. That, however, seems to be an opportunity that they seem strangely reluctant to grasp.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

This subject has turned into a PvP vs PvE dispute and this is really unfair.

There's nothing unfair about it. It's what happens when you try to introduce PvP into PvE activity in PvE areas.

The good thing is that with ZOS having realised from the IC discussions here that mixing PvE and PvP was a massive mistake not to be repeated with the Justice System in the PvE open world, every time threads like this are resurrected and the whole PvE/PvP confrontation continued, their reasoning for abandoning the addition of PvP to PvE activities in PvE areas is underlined.

As I never tire of saying, I'm all for PvP provided it is in PvP areas, and I'm all for PvPers contributing to the shaping of the known additional PvP content, just as I'm all for ZOS keeping the two playstyles separate. No good was ever going to come from imposing PvP penalties on PvE crimes in PvE areas, but in any event that particular ship has sailed and its supporters have every opportunity to shape the other ways in which their particular playstyle is going to be enhanced without detriment to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. That, however, seems to be an opportunity that they seem strangely reluctant to grasp.

it was a PVP system from conception, turned to a PVE system by poor implementation...

A PvP system that was turned to a PvE system, or a PvE crime system in PvE areas that was originally intended to have PvP penalties? My recollection is that it was the latter, with the PvP element delayed by the recognition of the problems in getting it right, ultimately resulting in the recognition that adding PvP to the PvE system simply wasn't going to work, but if your recollection is that it was originally conceived as a PvP-only system with no PvE element then I'd be interested in some more details on that.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS learned from IC that players simply cannot be trusted with the enforcer role. Thats why they cancelled it. These guys keep making all these excuses but in the end what they wish is a bunch of victims who cannot fight back. Do you guys honestly think people are going to buy a DLC where they will be paying to be farmed by people who did NOT buy the DLC? Seriously? Or pay to be farmed period? Did the utter failure of IC teach nothing?

First of all, please explain (with source) why you describe IC as an "utter failure". IC and sewers were litterally PACKED with players at launch. Now it's obviously less crowded, but still heavily and happily visited by small-scale pvp-ers.

Who are you to call it "an utter failure", and what do you base your saying upon ? (PLEASE ANSWER. I am just do fed up with people calling "failure" stuff that they simply don't like. It's intellectually dishonest.)

Second, everyone can fight back. At least try. If they don't want to or don"t like it, then they should be somewhere else. There are plenty of people (like me) who like it (and that is not related to them being "good" or "bad" PvPers... I'm a bad PvP'er and I still love it).

Imperial.City.Is.A.Great.DLC.Not.A.Failure.

IC was an utter failure because it didnt sell worth a crap. It was deserted after about 2 weeks of going live. Where as Orsinium for example sold a metric crap ton of copies and is still packed now with people doing the daily quests. So maybe in your opinion it is good but hardly anyone else shared your opinion. Go there now see how many people you run across.

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It has to do with the fact is wasnt popular as far as selling copies. Or retaining people once new content came out. I dont know of hardly anyone who liked it. An entire thread with 100s of replies in the pvp forum said it wasnt even a pvp update. So tons of pvp oriented players didnt like it anymore than the pve oriented players liked it. The cherry on top was the stone looting. The nail in the coffin.

I guarantee right then it was decided no more mixing of PVE and PVP. PVP in cyrodill and PVE everywhere else.

Jaronking wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It has to do with the fact is wasnt popular as far as selling copies. Or retaining people once new content came out. I dont know of hardly anyone who liked it.

Figures ? Numbers ? Sources ?

Truth is, you have NO CLUE. When it comes to hard objectives numbers, you have no clue. You refer to copies sold, how many were sold ? Do you know ? How ? Where from ?
I don't know ANYONE who dislikes IC, besides these forums. All my friends and guildmates were having a blast back then and still do whenever they go back.
There's less incentive to go back there now because it isn't "new" anymore, but that's "normal". Deshaan or Reaper's March being less populated now than at launch doesn't make them "fail zones".

Like many others in here, you're confusing what's "failure" with what you simply dislike.

[Quoted content removed]

I think the reason a lot of people say that IC was a failure is because it was heralded as a PvP DLC, all the PvPers at the time telling the PvEers not to complain about the PvE content being locked behind PvP because "this is our DLC, it's the only additional PvP we've been given, your turn will come with Orsinium", yet within only a matter of weeks the PvPers were complaining that they had been totally abandoned for at least the past year and when reminded that they had received a DLC they immediately dismissed it and said IC turned out not to be an effective PvP DLC.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It has to do with the fact is wasnt popular as far as selling copies. Or retaining people once new content came out. I dont know of hardly anyone who liked it.

Figures ? Numbers ? Sources ?

Truth is, you have NO CLUE. When it comes to hard objectives numbers, you have no clue. You refer to copies sold, how many were sold ? Do you know ? How ? Where from ?
I don't know ANYONE who dislikes IC, besides these forums. All my friends and guildmates were having a blast back then and still do whenever they go back.
There's less incentive to go back there now because it isn't "new" anymore, but that's "normal". Deshaan or Reaper's March being less populated now than at launch doesn't make them "fail zones".

Like many others in here, you're confusing what's "failure" with what you simply dislike.

And this brings another reason to why high-level characters would populate low-level areas: to play guards, enforce the law or to fight those who try to enforce the law. This mechanic would bring so many dynamic possibilities i.e. crime focused guilds trying to "own" that area, wiping out every guard or people avoiding to commit crimes in specific marketplaces and zones where they know a lot of enforcers tend to hang around and look for criminals or turn-in quests related to that faction. None of these activities are remotely possible in Cyrodiil, and players wouldn't be hostile to every other player like in the IC but only to those engaged in crime or law enforcement at that given time. Everyone should be able to choose between taking part or leave it and get along with whatever they were doing. Even take the opportunity to empty that vendor cache. At least this way it feels alive, right now you can bot-like run in circles looting every strongbox available in the middle of a crowd without much effort because there is rarely any guard around and NPCs are most of the time looking the other way. How does that help with making PvE fun?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It has to do with the fact is wasnt popular as far as selling copies. Or retaining people once new content came out. I dont know of hardly anyone who liked it.

Figures ? Numbers ? Sources ?

Truth is, you have NO CLUE. When it comes to hard objectives numbers, you have no clue. You refer to copies sold, how many were sold ? Do you know ? How ? Where from ?
I don't know ANYONE who dislikes IC, besides these forums. All my friends and guildmates were having a blast back then and still do whenever they go back.
There's less incentive to go back there now because it isn't "new" anymore, but that's "normal". Deshaan or Reaper's March being less populated now than at launch doesn't make them "fail zones".

Like many others in here, you're confusing what's "failure" with what you simply dislike.

I dont think it takes a genius to figure out that the main reason for the removal of the player "justice" form of the justice system was the actions of players in IC. Anyone who argues it sold anywhere the number as orsinium or TG are simply being delusional.

Oh and if you go to deshaan both the regular area and vet areas you will find it is quite populated.

Jaronking wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. It has to do with the fact is wasnt popular as far as selling copies. Or retaining people once new content came out. I dont know of hardly anyone who liked it.

Figures ? Numbers ? Sources ?

Truth is, you have NO CLUE. When it comes to hard objectives numbers, you have no clue. You refer to copies sold, how many were sold ? Do you know ? How ? Where from ?
I don't know ANYONE who dislikes IC, besides these forums. All my friends and guildmates were having a blast back then and still do whenever they go back.
There's less incentive to go back there now because it isn't "new" anymore, but that's "normal". Deshaan or Reaper's March being less populated now than at launch doesn't make them "fail zones".

Like many others in here, you're confusing what's "failure" with what you simply dislike.

So true but @anitajoneb17_ESO don't take @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO so seriously he post false information all the time about PVP and IC because he did not like it so he assume it was a failure. He is a very self centered person if you asked me.

I think the reason a lot of people say that IC was a failure is because it was heralded as a PvP DLC, all the PvPers at the time telling the PvEers not to complain about the PvE content being locked behind PvP because "this is our DLC, it's the only additional PvP we've been given, your turn will come with Orsinium", yet within only a matter of weeks the PvPers were complaining that they had been totally abandoned for at least the past year and when reminded that they had received a DLC they immediately dismissed it and said IC turned out not to be an effective PvP DLC.

Yea I was their and remember the thread but the reason PVPer don't consider it a true PVP DLC because its full of mobs 2 Dungeons a quest line and no PVP objectives what does that sound like to you.To me a it seems like all the other PVE zones in the game the only difference is that you can kill other players.They completely removed the only PVP PART OF imperial City which was locked access whiched they removed because of PVEr whining about not being able to do to because their population was smaller then other Not even listening to PVPers that told them its the point of locked access so when most of the other faction in imperial city you can retake the map and actually fight with even numbers.So sorry its way more of a PVE DLC then a PVP dlc and another reason most PVP aren't big fans of Zos right now.

So that whole bit with Tel-Var stones, incentives to combat players, items, the ability to PvP anywhere in the city....yeah....that DLC was just as much PvP as it was PvE. It was just Cyrodil by another name. The only difference is that they actually managed to coerce PvE questers into actually participating in the quests that we usually ignore.

But I think we can both agree that mixing the two playstyles didn't work out well. Dividing their attention to their respective audiences in a mixed zone only served to divide us further and incite frustration is both groups.

Kendaric wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

ZOS has done the right thing. PvP does not belong in PvE areas. PvP in the justice system means that those who don't want to PvP won't be able to participate in the justice system. We're talking about ZOS. There is no way they can separate a PvP justice system and a PvE justice system.

The current justice system doesn't really punish you for breaking the law. That's why the PvP part of it is needed.

Even if ZOS were to change their stance and include the PvP part of the justice system,you wouldn't be denied taking part in the justice system. What you would be denied is 1) outright murdering NPCs, 2) blatant thievery and 3) obvious breaking and entering. You'd just have to be more careful with how you go about criminal activity to avoid getting caught and face the consequences.

But, let's face it...you just want to avoid the consequences.

And yes, I'm a pure PvE player who doesn't want to PvP at all.

That being said.... the big issue with it not being implemented into the game is the lack of competent developers able to design it to function in the game. Right now ZOS is running on a light crew. More than likely we will not see anything "ground breaking" or innovative being placed in the game.

Tandor wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

This subject has turned into a PvP vs PvE dispute and this is really unfair.

There's nothing unfair about it. It's what happens when you try to introduce PvP into PvE activity in PvE areas.

The good thing is that with ZOS having realised from the IC discussions here that mixing PvE and PvP was a massive mistake not to be repeated with the Justice System in the PvE open world, every time threads like this are resurrected and the whole PvE/PvP confrontation continued, their reasoning for abandoning the addition of PvP to PvE activities in PvE areas is underlined.

As I never tire of saying, I'm all for PvP provided it is in PvP areas, and I'm all for PvPers contributing to the shaping of the known additional PvP content, just as I'm all for ZOS keeping the two playstyles separate. No good was ever going to come from imposing PvP penalties on PvE crimes in PvE areas, but in any event that particular ship has sailed and its supporters have every opportunity to shape the other ways in which their particular playstyle is going to be enhanced without detriment to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. That, however, seems to be an opportunity that they seem strangely reluctant to grasp.

it was a PVP system from conception, turned to a PVE system by poor implementation...

A PvP system that was turned to a PvE system, or a PvE crime system in PvE areas that was originally intended to have PvP penalties? My recollection is that it was the latter, with the PvP element delayed by the recognition of the problems in getting it right, ultimately resulting in the recognition that adding PvP to the PvE system simply wasn't going to work, but if your recollection is that it was originally conceived as a PvP-only system with no PvE element then I'd be interested in some more details on that.

it was a world-pvp system. they weren't finished with the rest, but to string people along released the portion of the system we have today, with the "intent" to finish it in a later patch. they hadn't finished how they would have players opt in and out of the system, and thats all that i recall them having issues with.

then they came up with the dark brotherhood/thieves guild patches, and they dumped the plan.... can't have those two being PVP uptdates and all...