BlackEar wrote: »

Would you mind sharing some examples of your own?

Horizontal Progression Options

What horizontal progression does is recognize that there is an upper limit on equipment quality and expand the playing field at the high end of the spectrum. What many game designers point to is something called “non-comparables.” For example, finishing a difficult quest or mission might unlock a new set of abilities for the character to learn. These abilities are not necessarily more powerful than other abilities, but might work well in tandem with others to provide a beneficial effect. Comparing one ability to another is really comparing apples to oranges—one isn’t inherently better than the other, just different, and if implemented well, very useful.

The key here is to expand the pool of items, abilities and systems that are useful and interesting during the endgame. So gear is one item that has been the traditional focus of progression, and expanding the different gear properties is certainly one way to progress horizontally—again, more types of gear, but not necessarily more powerful; one set might be especially good for fast movement, another protects well against fire, another especially well armored but slows you down.

But again, to move beyond gear, what other areas could be expanded?

Ability Progression

I spoke of this already, but abilities are second only to gear as a method of character progression. Here, a whole new universe of skills could be made available at high levels in the game. These skills could augment the existing skill set to provide powerful combinations that may only become apparent with research and experimentation. Again, these abilities don’t nullify previous skills, but build on them. The best implementations would reward players who do the work to find synergies and dynamics to build such combinations, and it would take time and effort to attain all these abilities.

Crafting

Allow players to discover legendary crafting recipes that can produce some of the best items, effects and features in the game. The ingredients would be a challenge to find and prepare, but the results could be comparable to running the most difficult content. All crafting systems – mining, blacksmithing, cooking, woodcrafting – would have these legendary recipes, so there is room for great variety in the items that could be created. It would take time and effort to both find the recipes and craft the items they contain.

Political and Trade Systems

Here, we move into one of the less-explored areas of progression, and that is of influence and negotiation. At high levels, characters have gained some reputation, and may be able to move in the circles of power within the various trade guilds, cities, kindgoms or worlds. These could be combined with a questing system to give options for dealing with various conflicts to achieve a desired result. Players could decide which faction they back, and be given a number of goals to achieve, and then work to influence the outcome, always with some element of the unexpected – combat as frequent a possibility as diplomacy.

Successes would provide gains in influence for future negotiations, possible guild benefits, discounted purchases, even access to content, materials or knowledge that might not be attainable without the proper status. Setbacks could lead to reduced status and even outright war – players and MOBs of a particular city might change from neutral to hostile, making it difficult to travel in that part of the world without disguise.

In a mature form, the political/trade could even work in tandem with PvP, giving players a reason to fight with another faction or group, and perhaps gain rewards as a result.

Player Economies

In addition to the NPC seller and the auction house, introduce a system where players can run their own shops or stalls, and offer to sell items direct to other players. Marketplaces can help drive prices, and perhaps even compete with auction house prices. It would be interesting to see supply and demand work its way back into the system by introducing limitations on the availability of a particular commodity. Perhaps there are only a limited number of wolf pelts on the market and there is an extra high wolf population – you’d have lots of people hunting them and taking advantage of higher prices. Conversely, when the wolf population dwindles and the demand is still high could there be things done to allow the wolves to recoup? Could items deteriorate over time and need to be repaired or replaced?

Player Created Content

Another common sandbox request, the ability for player to create their own adventures. Much has been discussed of this, but it goes back to augmenting the developer stories and allowing players to create their own.

Exploration Zones

Another idea floated on the forums as an alternative to raiding is the idea of unexplored territory. These would large uncharted zones that have no known established cities or countries, but require grouped teams due to the hostility of the environment and danger there. So instead of a large group “raid” on a dungeon boss, instead it would be a large-scale out effort to explore, map, and possibly settle in unknown territory. These areas have lots of opportunity for challenging team play, player-vs-player matches in a disputed areas, and even roleplay as groups play through their reasons for setting out into the zone. Hidden items, knowledge, fearsome monsters, and hidden ruins could become available as players forge their way into the unknown. These could also feature places for the characters to build their own settlements

The Long Conspiracy

Throughout the game, hide little snippets and clues of a threat that will ultimately come down on the world. These clues are innocuous, are not highlighted in any way, and in and of themselves do not amount to much. But players who pay attention and collect these as they go will be able to piece together the mystery of what is really happening and must decide what to do with the information once they figure things out. They might need to employ various pieces of the system – gain the trust of an official in the political system, make a trade with a particular faction, participate in a stealth mission, obtain a particular artifact and then at a critical juncture, provide a key piece of the puzzle, which then unlocks a major event and content. This returns the game to a place where players must use their real heads to progress along with their character stats.

Diversions and Fluff

Lots of things have been done independently in other games, but they can be combined to make for lots of fun once players have progressed through much of the game:

• A music system, that allows players to play instruments in game.
• Roleplaying hubs and tools, such as theaters, pubs, and city plazas making places for players to exercise their inner thespian
• Player and guild housing are a traditional sandbox wishlist item, allowing players to decorate their abode and invite friends over for socials
• Clothing decoration and skinning, giving players a chance to create their own clothing designs and colors, then sell them as needed

Until more ideas come forth for ways to increase horizontal progression, there will continue to be a tendency to revert to gear-based, vertical progression. These are a few ideas to get things started, but I’m sure there are many more. Add your own thoughts to the list!

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Morimizo wrote: »

"Exploration Zones

Another idea floated on the forums as an alternative to raiding is the idea of unexplored territory. These would large uncharted zones that have no known established cities or countries, but require grouped teams due to the hostility of the environment and danger there. So instead of a large group “raid” on a dungeon boss, instead it would be a large-scale out effort to explore, map, and possibly settle in unknown territory. These areas have lots of opportunity for challenging team play, player-vs-player matches in a disputed areas, and even roleplay as groups play through their reasons for setting out into the zone. Hidden items, knowledge, fearsome monsters, and hidden ruins could become available as players forge their way into the unknown. These could also feature places for the characters to build their own settlements"


I love the idea of having exploration zones, but would rather there be solo instances of these; exploration for me has usually been a quieter endeavor, away from the maddening crowds and constant all-out combat. The idea of having an entire new zone set up like the World Bosses in Wrothgar sounds incredibly stressful and hectic. I don't think Magellan had to be in mortal combat every second of his globe circumnavigation, after all. New alchemy ingredients, resource types, and {Talos Forbid} peaceful creatures and inhabitants should be part of the journey as well.

Morimizo wrote: »

"Actually, you could have a zone like this with hard, average, and simple paths/areas so that people who like different levels of difficulty would be able to enjoy it, with a more direct route that is clearly harder and more round-about paths that take a little longer but are easier to follow. "

I have always thought difficulty sliders of some sort is the best way to include all players of varying skill levels, and would certainly endorse this suggestion. However, difficulty shouldn't always be judged by combat effectiveness; puzzle solving, more intricate treasure hunting (detailed maps/clue searching), etc., should not be ignored. And combat for a solo player can be quite challenging (vMA), while group combat (like having 20 players on EDU in Wrothgar) can be slept through. Just because some would prefer solo, or small groups (2-3) doesn't equate to "We want it easy."

ADarklore wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I'm open to all manner of suggestions as to how progression can continue beyond level 50, but in my view it needs to be character-specific rather than account-wide. At present the game is trivialised by low level alts running around with 501 champion points.

Part of the entire reason ZOS wants to transition from VR to CP is to make the game more alt friendly due to numerous complaints, what you are suggesting is the exact opposite and continue the game as it is now, being extremely alt unfriendly.

GreySix wrote: »

Meh, I'd like to see an MMO with no leveling at all, but that theme appears to be permanent. My preference would be that your character instead of leveling would gain access to better and more effective gear over time, and the game would (as it does to an extent now) alter itself around the character's abilities (vice leveled lands/areas). Just don't think the technology for that is out there yet, at least not for MMOs.

ADarklore wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I'm open to all manner of suggestions as to how progression can continue beyond level 50, but in my view it needs to be character-specific rather than account-wide. At present the game is trivialised by low level alts running around with 501 champion points.

Part of the entire reason ZOS wants to transition from VR to CP is to make the game more alt friendly due to numerous complaints, what you are suggesting is the exact opposite and continue the game as it is now, being extremely alt unfriendly.

It depends on your definition of "alt friendly". I prefer MMOs to be alt friendly by creating a different leveling experience for multiple characters, so as to give a real purpose to rolling alts, rather than simply throwing one character's achievements (in a general sense of the word) at every other character on the account. I get the desire for some players to switch between different characters at "endgame" without having to level them all so perhaps the ability to create an instant maxed character through the Crown Store would be a better proposition than removing entirely the benefits derived by some from playing alts fully and individually.

After all, one of the biggest complaints about the game (and a key part of the removal of VR levels) is the whole Cadwell's concept which is a grind for those who just want an endgame alt, a lore-breaker for anyone remotely into the role-play/lore aspect of TES, and a huge no-go for those who prefer to level through each alliance area with a character of each alliance.

I hadn't heard that Cadwell's was involved in any part of the VR removal. As far as I know, Cadwell's will remain as it is and instead of being VR leveled it will be CP leveled. But of course, we haven't heard a word on VR removal in months, so who knows what has changed. However, I cannot see them removing or significantly altering Cadwell's in any way... and they've already said they have no intention of going back and 'battle leveling' older content... which will just leave CP as the only 'leveling' system for the Cadwell's experience for new players.