ZOS fix the shuffle stacking

Waffennacht · April 2016

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right through that

OdinForge · April 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right threw that

Even 50% dodge chance

Every 10 attacks you do, only half hit, who is running around with that kind of chance. In my testing with the methods described on this forum recently, the best I could come up with is that blur RNG is seemingly not as good as shuffle RNG, but shuffle RNG works normally.

Tryxus · April 2016

OdinForge wrote: »

I just signed in a little while ago actually to test the method of bugging out shuffle I heard about on this forum, involving animation cancel (not explaining how it works).

I recorded the session as well, video later. I also tested blur (20% dodge from NB tree), and used several different skills.

Shuffle is almost always a 1 in 5 chance to dodge an attack, blur can go 15 attacks without dodging one sometimes (in 3 tests) but shuffle always works on its advertised level.

If shuffle can be bugged, it doesn't involve the method popularized by so many on these forums. I think blur is just a super *** skill that doesn't always work as advertised.

I can 2nd that: Blur and its morphs seem to have a higher than 20% dodge chance. Did some testing with guildies, and the dodge chance from it seems to be higher than the 20% the tooltip states.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right through that

Come on Stam Builds: a golden opportunity for Flawless Conqueror

OdinForge · April 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I just signed in a little while ago actually to test the method of bugging out shuffle I heard about on this forum, involving animation cancel (not explaining how it works).

I recorded the session as well, video later. I also tested blur (20% dodge from NB tree), and used several different skills.

Shuffle is almost always a 1 in 5 chance to dodge an attack, blur can go 15 attacks without dodging one sometimes (in 3 tests) but shuffle always works on its advertised level.

If shuffle can be bugged, it doesn't involve the method popularized by so many on these forums. I think blur is just a super *** skill that doesn't always work as advertised.

I can 2nd that: Blur and its morphs seem to have a higher than 20% dodge chance. Did some testing with guildies, and the dodge chance from it seems to be higher than the 20% the tooltip states.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right through that

Come on Stam Builds: a golden opportunity for Flawless Conqueror

No you misunderstand me, sorry.

Blur is the only skill between the two (shuffle & blur) to actually fail a test, as in not dodge a single skill. At least in pvp.

Tryxus · April 2016

OdinForge wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I just signed in a little while ago actually to test the method of bugging out shuffle I heard about on this forum, involving animation cancel (not explaining how it works).

I recorded the session as well, video later. I also tested blur (20% dodge from NB tree), and used several different skills.

Shuffle is almost always a 1 in 5 chance to dodge an attack, blur can go 15 attacks without dodging one sometimes (in 3 tests) but shuffle always works on its advertised level.

If shuffle can be bugged, it doesn't involve the method popularized by so many on these forums. I think blur is just a super *** skill that doesn't always work as advertised.

I can 2nd that: Blur and its morphs seem to have a higher than 20% dodge chance. Did some testing with guildies, and the dodge chance from it seems to be higher than the 20% the tooltip states.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right through that

Come on Stam Builds: a golden opportunity for Flawless Conqueror

No you misunderstand me, sorry.

Blur is the only skill between the two (shuffle & blur) to actually fail a test, as in not dodge a single skill. At least in pvp.

Then I guess the Major Evasion really is RNG based. When I tested Blur (Double Take morph), I seemed to be dodging more attacks than just 1 out of 5. At times even believing I rlly had 80%

SeptimusDova · April 2016

Odin Forge
the problem with video proof is that it may get the creator* banned from the game.No matter how private the link on you tube, links have a way of getting out.Work arounds exist such as sanitizing the video from names and text. Email said video to a disinterested third party and then have them post it to youtube.

Much as the Mundus bug(Dead finally) was given the course of "responsible disclosure ." So must this bug/exploit. If it turns out to be as big as a problem as the mundus one was. we may see a fix in an incremental patch.

* If said creator of video is demonstrating said exploit ZOS TOS can and may enact the ban hammer.Without express consent from zos these things can get nasty. I know nothing of this bug and I am not going to try to recreate.Lest it be seen as a tutorial.

OdinForge · April 2016

The mundus bug was well known from the start, the people using it never got banned and ZOS just couldn't ever fix it. I used to see people through addons of all kinds with multiple mundus signs, people would upload 1vX videos and fail to hide the buffs.

If there is an exploit it's going to be either a game hack (cheat_engine type stuff) , or it's going to exploit something already in-game. If you record a video of an enemy dodging 10 attacks or more in a row, with the intent to show ZOS they have no reason to ban you.

I no longer play ESO more than once or twice a month (but I still sign in and PvP and catch up with friends from time to time), but I was around when people started crying about shuffle. There wasn't anyone in the relatively small NA/PC PvP community that was running 50% or more dodge chance, I'd have come across him or her eventually.

Tryxus wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I just signed in a little while ago actually to test the method of bugging out shuffle I heard about on this forum, involving animation cancel (not explaining how it works).

I recorded the session as well, video later. I also tested blur (20% dodge from NB tree), and used several different skills.

Shuffle is almost always a 1 in 5 chance to dodge an attack, blur can go 15 attacks without dodging one sometimes (in 3 tests) but shuffle always works on its advertised level.

If shuffle can be bugged, it doesn't involve the method popularized by so many on these forums. I think blur is just a super *** skill that doesn't always work as advertised.

I can 2nd that: Blur and its morphs seem to have a higher than 20% dodge chance. Did some testing with guildies, and the dodge chance from it seems to be higher than the 20% the tooltip states.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it was bugged... wouldn't everyone be beating vMA right now? I mean with an 80% dodge rate you could walk right through that

Come on Stam Builds: a golden opportunity for Flawless Conqueror

No you misunderstand me, sorry.

Blur is the only skill between the two (shuffle & blur) to actually fail a test, as in not dodge a single skill. At least in pvp.

Then I guess the Major Evasion really is RNG based. When I tested Blur (Double Take morph), I seemed to be dodging more attacks than just 1 out of 5. At times even believing I rlly had 80%

Both skills should essentially be a 1 in 5 chance to dodge an attack (light attack, skill, enchantment from weapon etc) on average, blur just seemed to be more prone to failure than shuffle. Both blur and shuffle can dodge multiple times per one cast of something like jabs or flurry.

Valrien · April 2016

The problem with RNG is that you can never be too sure if it's random or not. It'd be better if the skills just dodged every 5th attack.

Wollust · April 2016

sagitter wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

I have not tried that bug out.
I have not tested shuffle.

I use shuffle on every stamina character because it's so useful.
But I've heard enough from seasoned PvPers that shuffle can be exploited to provide more than 20% dodge chance. I know how to do it (allegedly), but I've got not much motivation to pvp at the moment, which is why I''m not planning to try it out for now.
But if I see people, who have been part of the hardcore player community for a while, complaining, I do tend to believe them.

If you know how to reproduce it why don't you just talk to Gina , or send the info to someone that could make a video about it, like Alcast, so we can see the evidence. Making toxic threads or post , without any proof or evidence, is not going to help anyone.

As far as I know, ZoS is aware of how the bug occurs and can be exploited. They stated so in a thread they closed.
Though I don't quite understand how my first post may be considered toxic. I just stated what what I know. But whatever gets you through the night I guess.

Preyfar · April 2016

I've seen people using Shuffle who seem to evade anything and everything. At first I chalked it up to RNG, but I've seen 10+ people wailing at the same person, and they were able to dodge pretty much every attack. I failed to get a video of it, but there is definitely something going up with it.

Ni7eWa7ch · April 2016

if the outcome would always be 1 on 5 it wouldn't be RNG .. it's a 20% CHANCE , doesn't mean it has to proc each once in a five hit

SeptimusDova · April 2016

Odin I said nothing of "Witnessing and Recording"

Fix your selective reading .

I said Creating the video and demonstrating the bug. In other words making the video of you personally doing such said thing and recording it. then placing it on youtube.

The ethical thing would be to do the above and send the proof directly to Zenimax. Not posting it on the Tube during the Responsible Disclosure time frame.

Showing others stacking shuffle is not as definitive as showing zenimax how to do it. And showing others "How to do it. Makes it worse for everyone.

Now on to mundus. Go ahead and Google new mundus exploit and you will find nothing. No one made an incriminating video. Sure plenty of videos of others with the buff. But how it occurred was kept low key.

L2R

Learn to read

TequilaFire · April 2016

My only input is I have seen 3 times as many dodges without the animation in pvp as I used to.
Either something is up or the perception that there is has more people using shuffle

OdinForge · April 2016

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Odin I said nothing of "Witnessing and Recording"

Fix your selective reading .

I said Creating the video and demonstrating the bug. In other words making the video of you personally doing such said thing and recording it. then placing it on youtube.

The ethical thing would be to do the above and send the proof directly to Zenimax. Not posting it on the Tube during the Responsible Disclosure time frame.

Showing others stacking shuffle is not as definitive as showing zenimax how to do it. And showing others "How to do it. Makes it worse for everyone.

Now on to mundus. Go ahead and Google new mundus exploit and you will find nothing. No one made an incriminating video. Sure plenty of videos of others with the buff. But how it occurred was kept low key.

L2R

Learn to read

Bro I read your original statement, and simply responded explaining why it doesn't matter. *** **** *** with that L2R BS.

This is the part of your statement and the only part that I referenced ->

the problem with video proof is that it may get the creator* banned from the game.

- you

This was my only response to that.

If you record a video of an enemy dodging 10 attacks or more in a row, with the intent to show ZOS they have no reason to ban you.

- me

At that point I wasn't even talking about showing us how to do it when I responded to you. I didn't even imply that you said anything about "witnessing and recording", I simply just suggested an alternative option, and you jumped down my throat like a maddog, if you can't handle a discussion why are you here. Just the simple fact of someone dodging 10 attacks in a row with shuffle consistently. You might actually be the one with selective reading.

Yes some of your points were valid, but there are other ways to get more convincing evidence than simply just making accusations with nothing to show for it.

Sheezabeast · April 2016

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

OdinForge · April 2016

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

Thank you.

Just to be clear I'm not saying shuffle has no chance of being broken, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it.

Either in-game or on the internet, if someone is running around with 80% dodge chance that's pretty godlike.

AOECAPS · April 2016

OdinForge wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

Thank you.

Just to be clear I'm not saying shuffle has no chance of being broken, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it.

Either in-game or on the internet, if someone is running around with 80% dodge chance that's pretty godlike.

How have you done testing but you only log in 1 or 2 a month something doesn't make much sense.

Rylana · April 2016

OdinForge wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

Thank you.

Just to be clear I'm not saying shuffle has no chance of being broken, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it.

Either in-game or on the internet, if someone is running around with 80% dodge chance that's pretty godlike.

It isnt really your place to demand evidence, as you are not the authority creating/maintaining the skill.

Simply put, ZoS has already acknowledged the existence of a bug, removed the steps to duplicate it from the public, and have said that it is unintended.

That is all the evidence peons such as you or I need.

OdinForge · April 2016

AOECAPS wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

Thank you.

Just to be clear I'm not saying shuffle has no chance of being broken, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it.

Either in-game or on the internet, if someone is running around with 80% dodge chance that's pretty godlike.

How have you done testing but you only log in 1 or 2 a month something doesn't make much sense.

if you read post #31, you'll see that I signed in today. The testing is simple, you gather a sample size and test. Some people want large sample sizes, when I'm in a 1v1 with someone we aren't talking about 800 attacks so I went with multiple tests of something more realistic and noticeable in-game during fights.

Which leads to the problem I brought up initially, there is no supporting evidence for this bug. ZOS was given "data" and they tested the skill, and responded with a "looks normal" folks. I tested the only method I could that some people have mentioned in conversation on the forums.

Rylana wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

Thank you.

Just to be clear I'm not saying shuffle has no chance of being broken, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it.

Either in-game or on the internet, if someone is running around with 80% dodge chance that's pretty godlike.

It isnt really your place to demand evidence, as you are not the authority creating/maintaining the skill.

Simply put, ZoS has already acknowledged the existence of a bug, removed the steps to duplicate it from the public, and have said that it is unintended.

That is all the evidence peons such as you or I need.

Read post #2, any bug so far hasn't been related to dodge chance. Unless there is a newer post from today.

It's not that I'm demanding evidence Rylana, there is no evidence to even demand. If you're going to accuse something of being bugged, there needs to be evidence.

Waffennacht · April 2016

I honestly think the meta has changed and people are now actually seeing shuffle for the first time.

For example, at times, my frag procs like 6 times in a row, it only has a 35% chance. Making it seem like way above 35%

Also when talking about sample sizes. I use to be a full time online poker player on Full Tilt. You gotta have samples sizes for 1000s of hands in that to see the long run effects, the same is true here. 1000s of RnG tests with shuffle would have to be done in order to show the long term 20% proc rate.

Just like in poker, you can have hot runs, where its seems like everything you do is perfect. Some poor sap out there may right now be sitting at a 5% dodge rate with shuffle.

OdinForge · April 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I honestly think the meta has changed and people are now actually seeing shuffle for the first time.

For example, at times, my frag procs like 6 times in a row, it only has a 35% chance. Making it seem like way above 35%

Also when talking about sample sizes. I use to be a full time online poker player on Full Tilt. You gotta have samples sizes for 1000s of hands in that to see the long run effects, the same is true here. 1000s of RnG tests with shuffle would have to be done in order to show the long term 20% proc rate.

Just like in poker, you can have hot runs, where its seems like everything you do is perfect. Some poor sap out there may right now be sitting at a 5% dodge rate with shuffle.

The shuffle complaints started well into 1.7, after the dodge nerf and with the proliferation of snares. No one really used shuffle in 1.6 as it wasn't required, StamNB used blur to stack movement speed with bow.

so yeah..I'm tempted to agree about the meta.

I also understand your point with sample sizes. But you don't need large sample sizes to notice 80% (damn well close to 100%..) dodge chance on someone in PVP, when you're tossing 10 attacks or so, which was my point.

SeptimusDova · April 2016

Odin I can handle discussions just fine. You seem to not like the answers you are being given. I detest cheating and exploits. On that page we share. Just remember zenimax's statements do not always match up with what is going on behind the scenes inside the company.

The only definitive proof of it being an exploit is to be able to reproduce the skill and show the steps. And that isn't going to happen. Because well intended actions have unintended consequences. And none of us are famous streamers with a get out of jail free card.

When you resort to profanity you have already lost a merit in a debate/discussion.

So we will not know if it is a real exploit unless someone comes forth with an admission and that is not going to happen. Or it becomes more widespread.

My segue into this discussion was because of post #6

here in it's entirety
"I don't personally think there is a bug, I never did. But too many people are just tossing out accusations and not giving enough proof, if you think the bug is real make a detailed video (make it unlisted so only those with a link can see it) and PM me the way to locate it on YouTube.
Edited by OdinForge on April 16, 2016 1:14PM "

OdinForge · April 2016

I'm not here to collect merits in anything or from anyone, I care very little what people think of me and it really has nothing to do with my points..I'll curse all day if I want, it doesn't make me wrong or right on my argument, it's just a thing.

I'm here asserting the fair point of "without evidence, there cannot be accusation". When you are on the constant receiving end of constant hate for being a "stamina-shuffle-macro-exploiter" you'll understand the frustration of people such as myself. People attach themselves to whatever glimmer of excuse they can, quick to point fingers at something they don't fully comprehend. To that type of person (and they are prolific here in ESO) I simply say prove it first.

I'm fully capable of accepting when I'm wrong, but in a scenario like this I'm just the voice of fairness. There isn't any proof that this ability is bugged, just speculation and that shouldn't warrant such accusation. I've never come across any player in PvP with 50 or 80% dodge chance, and if someone is running dodge chance like that I'd imagine a 1v1 to be impossible in the current meta of endless sustain and defense.

SeptimusDova · April 2016

"without evidence, there cannot be accusation"
yes there can be accusation= Baseless Accusation.

When you are on the constant receiving end of constant hate for being a "stamina-shuffle-macro-exploiter"

I thought you didn't play anymore.

Your last paragraph is spot on.It would be abused and It may be abused and if so the smart ones will keep mum aboiut it.

Anyone who uses macros in PVP is an Idiot they work best on mob farming. I could tell peeps how to find out if those are being used but zenimax has yet to contact me on that particular issue. I did get a nice thank you for the bot code a couple of years ago. That was nice.

We agree more than you think. I will add you to my list of people who dislike me. It really is a long list, and, achievement worthy. You couldn't break my record if you tried.

OdinForge · April 2016

SeptimusDova wrote: »

"without evidence, there cannot be accusation"
yes there can be accusation= Baseless Accusation.

When you are on the constant receiving end of constant hate for being a "stamina-shuffle-macro-exploiter"

I thought you didn't play anymore.

Your last paragraph is spot on.It would be abused and It may be abused and if so the smart ones will keep mum aboiut it.

Anyone who uses macros in PVP is an Idiot they work best on mob farming. I could tell peeps how to find out if those are being used but zenimax has yet to contact me on that particular issue. I did get a nice thank you for the bot code a couple of years ago. That was nice.

We agree more than you think. I will add you to my list of people who dislike me. It really is a long list, and, achievement worthy. You couldn't break my record if you tried.

You're right that I don't play anymore, and this doesn't apply to me anymore. But it used to, and it applies to many of my friends who still deal with it. I'm still active enough in this game to care about this stuff, so I'm sure you knew what i meant there. I still get hate comments on my old youtube videos for being a macro abuser, even though I've never looked at a macro before. This kind of BS won't stop with shuffle, there will always be something people latch onto unfairly.

You're making assumptions though, I have no reason to hate you or anyone I forum PVP against. I'm asserting a point and just because people disagree with me doesn't make them enemies.

SeptimusDova · April 2016

My only disagreement with you was your post number 6.Video is a two edged sword although this topic is now going to make me go back and review a certain video. I will send you a PM. Be aware that PM's are not secure.They can be read .

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

So if ZOs fixes the shuffle stacking can they fix the shield stacking problem too then ? No ? Then leave shuffle how it is divines know stamina users need all the help they can get.

itscompton · April 2016

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

The thing is, I don't care whether Odin believes or not nor do I care about him wanting video proof. I play every day and the difference is quite noticeable. If Odin hasn't seen it for himself during his play sessions then maybe he's just not very perceptive.

OdinForge · April 2016

itscompton wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Odin is expressing a voice of reason here. It is not unreasonable to want documented evidence of said bug. I hate exploiters and have no reason to support them, but on the same hand, I hate when people jump to conclusions and it leads to Zos borking yet another skill.

The thing is, I don't care whether Odin believes or not nor do I care about him wanting video proof. I play every day and the difference is quite noticeable. If Odin hasn't seen it for himself during his play sessions then maybe he's just not very perceptive.

I'd love to fight the boogymen with almost 100% dodge chance that you're running into.

UndeadBlood · April 2016

AddictionX wrote: »

a 50 percent dodge chance? But Other people say 80 percent...

I tested it with my grandma, who is a high skill PvP player, and I assure you that it's 61%!