Maintenance for the week of December 22:
• [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 22, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
Account sharing?
-
ZOS_AlanGadminA number of posts have been removed from this thread as baiting or off topic. We're happy to have an ongoing discussion on this matter, but it's important that the conversation abide by the forum rules and stay on track.Forum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
I’ve moved to a new position and I am no longer active on this forum. For assistance, please check the resources linked above0 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Normally we do not discuss disciplinary actions taken on ESO game accounts, but in light of this particular situation’s public nature we’d like to explain a few things.
We do not allow account sharing to protect our players from the following:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
When a Terms of Service violation occurs, we do reserve the right to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. In this case, we made a one-time, final exception for those involved due to the years of contributions they have provided the ESO community and team.
Anyone whose ESO account is suspended or banned may appeal the decision via our Support Portal. We can and do give players another chance when the situation warrants it.
You should at least go for the intend of the Rule not the text.
Account sharing is to prevend 2 Users using 1 account to save money or use it to farm gold in shifts. Nothing like that is remotly happening. You should clearly state that it is perfectly fine that @Sypher is doing it on stream(and only then) for the sole purpose to play with his eu fans. Anybody that is saying oh special people are getting special treatment are silly because they do not understand the difference between intend and word for word following a rule.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
If we as players would follow every word you said and call you out on everything you would have a way harder time too.
Thats not the only way he shared his account though. What he did was against the rules, using others to level his toons. He got his slap on the wrist and all is well and im glad for it. But its never so cut and dried.0 -
mrs_gibbs✭✭✭It seems ridiculous that a husband and wife, or siblings couldn't each make characters on the same account. I had no idea this was against the rules, and I know people who do this. Why is it a big deal? Or if you're wanting a friend to get the game, what is wrong with them creating an alt on your account and letting them try it out before they buy? You purchased the game, I feel it's your right to let whoever play your game that you want to. I've never heard of this on any other game. I mean you can still only get the max characters. But really, your little brother isn't allowed to play? Maybe they should revisit this rule.
Instead why not just punish the very few people who do exploit this, ie:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
6 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Normally we do not discuss disciplinary actions taken on ESO game accounts, but in light of this particular situation’s public nature we’d like to explain a few things.
We do not allow account sharing to protect our players from the following:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
When a Terms of Service violation occurs, we do reserve the right to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. In this case, we made a one-time, final exception for those involved due to the years of contributions they have provided the ESO community and team.
Anyone whose ESO account is suspended or banned may appeal the decision via our Support Portal. We can and do give players another chance when the situation warrants it.
Ok here is my problem with this....
The two things you want to protect players from have zero to do with account sharing
Gold farming isn't that big of an issue in this game anymore, and more importantly while they do share accounts the big issue is you have a metric ton of them botting in one area... Botting is the biggest issue with them...not account sharing
As for account hacking if people are sharing their accounts are not really being hacked since they are freely giving out their info to trusted people. And just the idea that you'd say not to account sharing based on the off chance someone did hack an account of someone like this is rather silly.... It's like eliminating driving cause you risk car jackers jacking your car...
Also the threat itself of banning seems rather odd when dealing with account hacking... Cause you're saying "you better not share your account or we will ban you vs you know your bloody account being stolen and you losing all your stuff"
It's like threatening to put someone in the electric chair if they already drowning in a lake.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos6 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To everyone kissing up to ESO and Sypher:
Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!12 -
Khaos_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭Psychotius wrote: »Can someone indicate (quote) the exact 'rule' stating that account sharing (in the meaning described below) is forbidden? If this is what I'm thinking about (the rule I found in TOS), the situation, where somebody agrees that his account may be used by another person (i.e. the family member) just to enable this other person to play, is not against that rule.
From section 1 of TOS:
Accounts are non-transferable under all circumstances. You have sole liability for all activities on Your Account and/or under Your user names. You may be held liable for losses incurred by ZeniMax or other third parties due to someone else using Your Account, user name or password. Your Account or certain features of Your Account may be restricted, suspended, and/or terminated if someone else uses Your Account, user name or password to engage in activity that violates these Terms of Service or is otherwise improper or illegal. You agree to notify ZeniMax immediately of any unauthorized use of Your Account, user name, or password, or any other breach of security.
This is saying you are liable if someone logs onto your account violates rules. Not sure what the exact situation with Sypher was. However, the text you provided allows a family member to logon to another family member account and play the game.
0 -
Psychotius✭✭✭Khaos_Bane wrote: »Psychotius wrote: »Can someone indicate (quote) the exact 'rule' stating that account sharing (in the meaning described below) is forbidden? If this is what I'm thinking about (the rule I found in TOS), the situation, where somebody agrees that his account may be used by another person (i.e. the family member) just to enable this other person to play, is not against that rule.
From section 1 of TOS:
Accounts are non-transferable under all circumstances. You have sole liability for all activities on Your Account and/or under Your user names. You may be held liable for losses incurred by ZeniMax or other third parties due to someone else using Your Account, user name or password. Your Account or certain features of Your Account may be restricted, suspended, and/or terminated if someone else uses Your Account, user name or password to engage in activity that violates these Terms of Service or is otherwise improper or illegal. You agree to notify ZeniMax immediately of any unauthorized use of Your Account, user name, or password, or any other breach of security.
This is saying you are liable if someone logs onto your account violates rules. Not sure what the exact situation with Sypher was. However, the text you provided allows a family member to logon to another family member account and play the game.
I believe the infraction was actually from streaming himself playing on someone's account, not for letting his family members play on his console accounts.I'm not as am as you drunk I think.0 -
Reb✭✭✭You purchased the game, I feel it's your right to let whoever play your game that you want to. I've never heard of this on any other game..
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
i suggest you go read the TOS on any online game you think you own ...you will find that you dont actually own much at all
you have access to the game ..you don't own any part of it0 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Instead why not just punish the very few people who do exploit this, ie:
- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
The interesting thing is many of the streamers take money then have "raffles" for in-game gold. I would like to zos to explain how that is any different from gold farming. The major issue that someone who has been clearly violating the rules on multiple times keeps getting breaks while people with less offenses don't. It displays zos' lack of integrity as individuals and as a company.
4 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Normally we do not discuss disciplinary actions taken on ESO game accounts, but in light of this particular situation’s public nature we’d like to explain a few things.
We do not allow account sharing to protect our players from the following:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
When a Terms of Service violation occurs, we do reserve the right to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. In this case, we made a one-time, final exception for those involved due to the years of contributions they have provided the ESO community and team.
Anyone whose ESO account is suspended or banned may appeal the decision via our Support Portal. We can and do give players another chance when the situation warrants it.
You should at least go for the intend of the Rule not the text.
Account sharing is to prevend 2 Users using 1 account to save money or use it to farm gold in shifts. Nothing like that is remotly happening. You should clearly state that it is perfectly fine that @Sypher is doing it on stream(and only then) for the sole purpose to play with his eu fans. Anybody that is saying oh special people are getting special treatment are silly because they do not understand the difference between intend and word for word following a rule.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
If we as players would follow every word you said and call you out on everything you would have a way harder time too.
Thats not the only way he shared his account though. What he did was against the rules, using others to level his toons. He got his slap on the wrist and all is well and im glad for it. But its never so cut and dried.
Just found out about this through Jauriel, so I'll need some catching up but here are my thoughts:
- we all signed the TOS. We have to read it and accept any punishment for offenses.
- Sypher already admitted, and based on typical law appeals practices, was given a second chance due to first time offense. 100% ok with this.
I do wish, as a gaming community, we find a better way to accept/sign TOS for games. I understand the reasoning why, and accept you have to sign something when you are granted rights to use software. But forcing TOS before install, and obscenely long TOS filled with law jargon just doesn't fit the gaming culture.
Links to TOS related topics:
1) TOS educating initiative.
https://tosdr.org/
2)negative viewpoint on TOS
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/15/i-read-all-the-small-print-on-the-internet
3)list of crazy TOS terms (shows one from Farcry)
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-ridiculous-eula-clauses-agreed/
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual6 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Instead why not just punish the very few people who do exploit this, ie:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
The interesting thing is many of the streamers take money then have "raffles" for in-game gold. I would like to zos to explain how that is any different from gold farming. The major issue that someone who has been clearly violating the rules on multiple times keeps getting breaks while people with less offenses don't. It displays zos' lack of integrity as individuals and as a company.
People arent rewarded in game money from the raffles. They are completely separate from each other.
Why you trying to link Sypher to TOS breaking activities?!3 -
mrs_gibbs✭✭✭You purchased the game, I feel it's your right to let whoever play your game that you want to. I've never heard of this on any other game..
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
i suggest you go read the TOS on any online game you think you own ...you will find that you dont actually own much at all
you have access to the game ..you don't own any part of it
I don't play any other online games so that's probably why I've never heard of it.
I still think it's a silly rule, and really doesn't have much to do with account hacking or gold farming. Which is why they say they have it. As others have said, there are many other better ways that people can exploit besides account sharing.Edited by mrs_gibbs on April 14, 2016 3:57PM0 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Instead why not just punish the very few people who do exploit this, ie:
- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
The interesting thing is many of the streamers take money then have "raffles" for in-game gold. I would like to zos to explain how that is any different from gold farming. The major issue that someone who has been clearly violating the rules on multiple times keeps getting breaks while people with less offenses don't. It displays zos' lack of integrity as individuals and as a company.
People arent rewarded in game money from the raffles. They are completely separate from each other.
Why you trying to link Sypher to TOS breaking activities?!
I never said sypher nor did I say tos don't place words in my mouth. I know what I said; I am very particular with my words.
These sites and services are not for use as corporate, business, commercial, or income seeking activities.
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/code-of-conduct4 -
x_t7ink_x✭✭✭@ZOS_AlanG Hi I have a question - Someone I know was struggling with Maelstrom arena on the last boss, he watched several videos and couldn't figure out where he was going wrong, so he 'share played' through the PSN and someone was then able to watch what was happening and give advice - He didn't play for him - is this classed as account sharing.
How do you define account sharing, is there a be all and end all paragraph on the matter or is it a ban and review upon appeal case by case basis?
Thanks in advanceEdited by x_t7ink_x on April 14, 2016 3:58PMPS4 EU AD
Vet 16 DK High Elf Tank
Vet 16 Templar High Elf
Vet 2 Sorc High Elf
Vet 1 Mageblade Breton
Baby Stamplar Redguard
Baby Stamblade R.I.P.
'If your looking for Whit, I'd say you're half way there''
Raiders of the Lost Maw GM - http://raidersofthelostmaw.wix.com/home
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/253838968292827/
Community Page owner 1.2k members - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElderScrollsOnlinePS4EU/0 -
ThePMSBeast✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Changing your video card shouldnt have any effect on that account verification email. It just looks at your IP. I comepletly rebuilt my pc even reinstalled windows and it still didnt ask me to verify. Only when I tried to login from a different area did it send it. Like when I was visiting a friend and used his wifi to play.
This does happen and not with just TESO but also Steam. I put in a loaner video card when mine died and was waiting on a replacement. I was asked to verify the device i was on with ESO as did steam. Once my card came in i put that in and yup, re-verify once again lol . I could see a new OS or something like that but yeah, changing video cards does prompt it." I know from righteous, I know from sin. I got two sides, and they both friends "1 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpStump wrote: »Why would anyone share their account? My son came over and wanted to show me something in game, he logged into his game, not mine. I don't want ANYONE touching my game. I don't get it.
GrumpStump
Except I don't think that is considered "Account Sharing". You have your own account, he has his own account. The only thing you are doing is providing your computer so that he can logon to HIS account. Now if you provided him with your account name/password so that he could logon to your account from his location, I think that's what they consider "Account Sharing". I'm not an expert on the definitions here, but I that's what I believe they mean.
0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Instead why not just punish the very few people who do exploit this, ie:- Gold Farmers/Sellers
- Account Hacking
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
The interesting thing is many of the streamers take money then have "raffles" for in-game gold. I would like to zos to explain how that is any different from gold farming. The major issue that someone who has been clearly violating the rules on multiple times keeps getting breaks while people with less offenses don't. It displays zos' lack of integrity as individuals and as a company.
People arent rewarded in game money from the raffles. They are completely separate from each other.
Why you trying to link Sypher to TOS breaking activities?!
I never said sypher nor did I say tos don't place words in my mouth. I know what I said; I am very particular with my words.
These sites and services are not for use as corporate, business, commercial, or income seeking activities.
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/code-of-conduct
It goes far deeper then that.
Read up on Copyright Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
All these streamers are literally walking lawsuits waiting to happen. Unless you have a letter in writing from the game publisher granting you a license to stream that content, you are violating Copyright Law and can be sued at any time. Its really crazy the liability they have opened themselves up to.
who knows, "shrugs" ZOS's legal team could be waiting till the game is finished, then file lawsuits against all the streamers to extract money from them on the grounds of Copyright...why not...the law says they have exclusive rights to that content including profiting off it...it would be well within their rights to...
if your a streamer i would suggest talking to a Copyright Attorney...if you don't have written permission its almost a forgone conclusion your violating Copyright and are liable if you were to be sued...i'd do everything i could to avoid potential litigation...Edited by RinaldoGandolphi on April 14, 2016 4:13PMRinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak6 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭You purchased the game, I feel it's your right to let whoever play your game that you want to. I've never heard of this on any other game..
Don't punish everyone because there are a few baddies.
i suggest you go read the TOS on any online game you think you own ...you will find that you dont actually own much at all
you have access to the game ..you don't own any part of it
TOS do not supercede the law...
Europe has good anti software TOS laws.
I hope USA follows suit.2 -
ThePMSBeast✭✭I think the major issue here is the severity of the punishment for breaking TOS. If you let say your child play ESO then it is considered sharing yes, but a permanent ban on that situation is ridiculous. If they were letting others power level their characters or any other illegal act while sharing the account then i say a long suspension and or Ban.
The punishment needs to fit the crime and there should be stages to an eventual ban. If i let a small child run around a starter area on my vet character owning mobs for her sheer enjoyment and i got perma banned for something stupid like that, i would be more then enraged.
Again, crime fits the punishment ..or you are going to have some very very upset players because they will feel they are punched in the face for something that might need a stern look lol" I know from righteous, I know from sin. I got two sides, and they both friends "2 -
ThePMSBeast✭✭GrumpStump wrote: »Why would anyone share their account? My son came over and wanted to show me something in game, he logged into his game, not mine. I don't want ANYONE touching my game. I don't get it.
GrumpStump
Except I don't think that is considered "Account Sharing". You have your own account, he has his own account. The only thing you are doing is providing your computer so that he can logon to HIS account. Now if you provided him with your account name/password so that he could logon to your account from his location, I think that's what they consider "Account Sharing". I'm not an expert on the definitions here, but I that's what I believe they mean.
I have my own account and my daughter who plays as well has her own account. She has logged into my computer to play her game on HER account and so that is not considered sharing an account because she was not on mine, but her own. They can't tell you that you can't use one computer for multiple accounts ..that would be...dumb lmao.
so no, using the same comp but different accounts is fine, they just don't want you letting someone other then yourself using your account.
" I know from righteous, I know from sin. I got two sides, and they both friends "0 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The company ZOS and the company @Sypher have a mutual interest in the well-being of each other. While this may not have been of any influence on ZOS' decision, one has to admit that it's not hard to imagine that it has indeed had an influence.1 -
TheValkyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Why is anyone sharing a F2P game?
Edit: rhetorical, obviously since it just doesn't make sense.
People will sometimes share their account info so another individual or entity can power level their characters. This was the case. It can be attributed to the straight up lazy characterization of not wanting to level up his own characters.
Edited by TheValkyn on April 14, 2016 5:12PM2 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭Hi everyone, please remember to keep any discussion civil and constructive. It's fine to critique, debate, and disagree - but it's important to be respectful of each other, and the forum rules.
Generally speaking, it is acceptable to ask questions about the TOS and the forum rules. However, the query can't be tied explicitly or implicitly to a specific incident. This thread was locked for the latter, and we were also getting a large number of threads explicitly discussing the ban at the time.So... this thread got re-opened? Does this mean that it is OK to ask questions about what is and isn't allowed under the Terms of Service and the rationale behind them? Because that's what was going on here when the thread got locked.
AFAIK *this* thread was never locked (could have happened overnight as I did sleep for a few hours, LoL). A similar one was, for naming names and details in an incident. I started this to be a general discussion of the issue, not single out individuals (user or ZOS employee). Of course, I can't control the comments of others.
Edited by ContraTempo on April 14, 2016 5:32PMContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master0 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Wait.It seems ridiculous that a husband and wife, or siblings couldn't each make characters on the same account. I had no idea this was against the rules, and I know people who do this.
So, a married couple - for whom community property rules ostensibly apply - can't use the same ESO account? I mean they own everything jointly.
This makes no sense to me whatsoever...8 -
myrrrorb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »
Wait.It seems ridiculous that a husband and wife, or siblings couldn't each make characters on the same account. I had no idea this was against the rules, and I know people who do this.
So, a married couple - for whom community property rules ostensibly apply - can't use the same ESO account? I mean they own everything jointly.
This makes no sense to me whatsoever...
That's a good point never thought of it that way. What about minors living in the same household?4 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭I really do not know what is this all about... I mean it's obvious that allowing other persons to log into my own account while I'm already logged in (if it's technically possible of course) just to be able to play together is against the rules as it is in other games. But if this whole 'account sharing' means also the situation where supposedly e.g. one man allows his wife to make a character on his account to play when he's NOT playing (the game is installed only on one computer, he's at work and his wife wants to play on his account with her character), I feel like his rights as a consumer, who OWNS the game and it's his property, are violated. It sounds to me like inadmissible limitation of exercise of property rights. Who the heck defines to whom each account belongs and who is sharing an account (in given example above, the man or his wife)?!
Good point. And I have considered letting someone I would like to game with try it out by playing one of my alts on my computer (with me watching). Obviously this is someone I trust a lot. But now it seems that would be a serious violation that could cost me my account. I seriously doubt she will purchase the game just to give it a try, but I think if she tried it she would get hooked and I would have a play partner.
I do wish we could do this sort of thing (the innocent and limited applications of account sharing) without upsetting ZoS's apple cart. Maybe there is a better way to spot the bad and allow the good. It's something to think about.ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They can not tell if wifey is playing alt #2 on the same computer or console that you use.
Only if played on the same account on a different device.
Client doesn't take fingerprints.
Not yet! lol
Conflict there would be you fighting her for playtime!
Edited by TequilaFire on April 14, 2016 5:24PM4 -
Sypher✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Why is anyone sharing a F2P game?
Edit: rhetorical, obviously since it just doesn't make sense.
People will sometimes share their account info so another individual or entity can power level their characters. This was the case. It can be attributed to the straight up lazy characterization of not wanting to level up his own characters.
You have been after me for 2 years now. I respect your determination to try to end me.
Letting my brothers have my ps4 to play ESO on my character is a bit of a stretch to compare it with "power leveling" services companies offer in return for $.
Again, I respect your determination to hunt me down.Edited by Sypher on April 14, 2016 5:25PMDC Dragonknight 'Sypher - AD Nightblade Sypher Ali - AD Sorcerer Sypher Sensei - EP Sorcerer Sypharian - DC Templar Ali Sypher
Youtube: www.youtube.com/SypherPK
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/SypherPK7 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »
So, a married couple - for whom community property rules ostensibly apply - can't use the same ESO account? I mean they own everything jointly.
This makes no sense to me whatsoever...
As an alt-o-holic married to another alt-o-holic, we each have and jealously guard our two subbed accounts....Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis4