Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

A very narrow perspective imho. How many people dropped $$ on crowns last week to take advantage of exp stacking? How many people just bought the TG dlc? How many people are subbing? Last I checked, we didn't just invest a small sum once two years ago. Whether or not you sub, you're still paying for broken content.

Anyway, I think you were looking for the individual that brought the mechanic thing up in the first place. I clearly stated in the post you directly quoted that the metaphor is irrelevant; the concept still applies. Although you ignored the concept altogether... I think you got distracted by all the giraffes.

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I'm no developer, so I'm not gonna presume to tell them what they need to do. But I do know, that in playing MMO's for the past 18 years, I've never seen another AAA MMO that is so bug ridden and has as many issues, for so long as ESO. That much I know. Just my opinion, and why I stopped subbing, and giving them money.

I just have to say that this is the most entertaining thread on the forum is a good long time.

I sometimes wonder if the devs there are given the usual insufficent budget, trying to right the world with no resources to do so.
I wonder if they ruefully read these threads and smile in despair at the effort they put in to do nothing more than tread water.
Hands tied behind their back.
Mouths tightly zipped.

We really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
For all we know the Devs may be begging for resources that are persistantly denied by the suits.
Made to wear a brave face and false smile as they try and muddle through with what they have.
The show must go on.
Everyone needs to put food on the table at the end of the day.

Should I admire the dignity of those working with a broken heart that do what they do inspite of everything in their way ?
Should I assume the staff are simply incompetent and dont care and love trolling the customers in a multitude of sadistic ways ?
Should I accept that everything is hunky dory apart from a tiny little problem with pvp that noone wants to play anyway ?
The truth is I dont know what to believe anymore really.
Perhaps existing customers are expendable as long as new customers keep arriving.
So retaining jaded customers is simply not important to their model.

Regardless. I think anything they do offline can be done while online.....so not much point shutting down the servers and cutting out any funding.

Networks had been under attack across the US and EU at the time of the ZOS DDOS.
If a group decides to targets ZOS hosts rather than ZOS directly, there really isnt much ZOS can do except ride out the storm.

/shrugs.
Its hard to be patient though.
At some point you simply have to write something off.
After 2 years of persistant performance degradation my patience hangs by a thread.
Throw in design changes that move further and further away from what I bought into and hoped to see expanded.
Add in game philosophy that has evolved into something I am uncomfortable with.

On the other hand 1000s are no doubt ecstatic that the part of the game they play works like a dream for the most part.
Then all the new players that see all the shiny bling on the surface, ignorant of what lies beneath.
Perhaps it is time for the old guard to move on and abandon their dream or suck it up and embrace the new ESO for what it is and will become.

I congratulate ZOS on the digital world they created anyway. No matter what. They at least deserve that.
No regrets.

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

Not long gotten in from work. Wasn't expecting this thread to have done much haha. A lot of people have taken my words out of context - "armchair developer"? Nope, not me (that would be my brother who works for TT Fusion ).
Still I'm glad people are discussing the game - such passion shows how much most of us love it, warts and all, and most importantly care about it and the future of it.
I REALLY regret the title of the thread and I would have changed it a long time ago - I certainly didn't mean to be hurtful; or anything like that, although that is how it seems to have come across - SINCERE APOLOGIES. i know that most production houses have a super-tough job to do. I fervently believe that something is definitely broken and causing the issues to continue - but that doesn't mean that they aren't working on them.

Happy hunting all

No fixes until "next major update"?

PVP'ers be like

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

I bought a toaster 3 years ago that came with a free 5 year warranty, the company I bought it from obviously has faith in their product and the manufacturing staff who assembled it, what's your point exactly james?
Are you saying we should only expect a working product from zos if we spend an excess of 20k?