Your coders simply aren't up to the task

notimetocare · April 2016

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

@FENGRUSH made this very clear about ZOS and how they DONT care for their customers in his last live review:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IzFS4RKA5uc

Fengrage is sickeningly self-centered. As objective as he tries to come across, it is very clear he wants his gameplay catered to. I have stopped caring for his opinion. I do however still enjoy when he streams (havent checked in a while though due to time limits)

Miszou · April 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

What?! I'm so surprised at this... and here I thought this whole time it was me not playing the game properly. You mean to tell me that crashing upon login every day for 4 weeks straight is not an intended feature? Where the hell have I been?!

Sounds to me like a client-side problem. Game is rock solid for me, on both my machines.

Garldeen · April 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

A lot of businesses get hit by DDOS attacks, supermarkets, online banks, Amazon etc. The difference here seems to be that they take action to try and stop it happening again. Here it appears that they wait it out and then ignore it until it happens again.

I host a number of websites and if my network was suffering from attacks this often then I would be looking for a new network manager or a new hosting provider. Probably both within hours of it happening for a second time in a short while

You are proceeding under the assumption that they are doing nothing, in the face of statements to the contrary.

They are either doing nothing (cannot or will not?) or whatever they have done so far hasn't worked very well. Maybe time to bring in people who know what they are doing.

Note: I do not purport to be an expert so don't ask me if I could do better. Likewise, I would not expect Z to be able to do my job

Acrolas · April 2016

Baranthus wrote: »

Many of us pay a subscription and are more than happy to do so. We realise that subscriptions help to support the development of the game.

Do they though? Some people act like the Revenue bucket pours completely and directly straight back into Research and Development. But it's never that simple, and hardly that convenient. You're extremely lucky if a fraction of a quid goes directly into "fixes," a fraction of a fraction actually going toward a problem that matters to you.

Welcome to business management, where it's easier to kill a guy than hammer down where any given dollar is at any given time.

Miszou · April 2016

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

Sallington · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

Garldeen · April 2016

Agreed. I'm no doctor but I think I could tell something was amiss if the surgeon cut my leg off instead of patching up my broken finger.

Miszou · April 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

Garldeen · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

I disagree. If you ask them to fix your car - you don't have to know what is wrong to know it is broken - and then it breaks down on the way home you are well within your rights to say hire better staff

Elsonso · April 2016

wonkydog wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

A lot of businesses get hit by DDOS attacks, supermarkets, online banks, Amazon etc. The difference here seems to be that they take action to try and stop it happening again. Here it appears that they wait it out and then ignore it until it happens again.

I host a number of websites and if my network was suffering from attacks this often then I would be looking for a new network manager or a new hosting provider. Probably both within hours of it happening for a second time in a short while

You are proceeding under the assumption that they are doing nothing, in the face of statements to the contrary.

They are either doing nothing (cannot or will not?) or whatever they have done so far hasn't worked very well. Maybe time to bring in people who know what they are doing.

Note: I do not purport to be an expert so don't ask me if I could do better. Likewise, I would not expect Z to be able to do my job

I am not an expert, either, which is why you don't see me saying they don't know what to do about DDOS attacks.

Mojmir · April 2016

wonkydog wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

I disagree. If you ask them to fix your car - you don't have to know what is wrong to know it is broken - and then it breaks down on the way home you are well within your rights to say hire better staff

Thats another thing,we have "mechanics" offering suggestions,not listening or acting on it is an issue.

Garldeen · April 2016

I'm not saying they don't know how to deal with it. My original point was that many businesses suffer DDOS attacks - I've had them on my own servers, limited, but still had them. The point I was making that most of these businesses then do something to stop it happening again in the future. When was the last time that your bank went down several times a week for DDOS, or Amazon, FFXIV, WOW or BBC News etc? These sites get many more DDOS attacks then this game does yet don't go down nearly as often.

That is my reasoning for saying that DDOS seems like an easy excuse to make for a larger problem which they cannot fix properly.

Anyway, that's me done on the topic. Time for pub quiz

JamilaRaj · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Yes. The game indeed strikes me as though they banged on the keyboard and threw the *** out of the door without any testing whatsoever. Unless, of course, ZOS in fact has QA department that tests everything, has a good laugh and then greenlights utter garbage for release anyway.

Miszou wrote: »

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process.

Rigo-what? Ah, I get it. It is irony, right? I like irony, ha ha.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · April 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

@FENGRUSH made this very clear about ZOS and how they DONT care for their customers in his last live review:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IzFS4RKA5uc

Fengrage is sickeningly self-centered. As objective as he tries to come across, it is very clear he wants his gameplay catered to. I have stopped caring for his opinion. I do however still enjoy when he streams (havent checked in a while though due to time limits)

While i do not agree with everything Fen says I thought I would point out something i thought would be obvious. We all want our gameplay catered to.

Or are you suggesting there are people going, man i really wish they would hurry up and add/fix this X content i dont even play, and just ignore this Y content that i enjoy?

Browiseth · April 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Or are you suggesting there are people going, man i really wish they would hurry up and add/fix this X content i dont even play, and just ignore this Y content that i enjoy?

Uh, actually
I'm that sort of person.

Oldmanlawlor · April 2016

But software and hardware are two completel different things...

I mean like, can an aircraft mechanic be expected to write the autopilot code?

UltimaJoe777 · April 2016

There will always be server issues, and they constantly work to fix them. Unfortunately EU Servers have their fair share of issues not so uncommonly. Has nothing to do with the coding team, it's just server issues...

KallistaBlackheart · April 2016

Saltypretzels wrote: »

another arm-chair developer, nothing to see here

yep.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · April 2016

Browiseth wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Or are you suggesting there are people going, man i really wish they would hurry up and add/fix this X content i dont even play, and just ignore this Y content that i enjoy?

Uh, actually
I'm that sort of person.

Of course you are.

Browiseth · April 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Or are you suggesting there are people going, man i really wish they would hurry up and add/fix this X content i dont even play, and just ignore this Y content that i enjoy?

Uh, actually
I'm that sort of person.

Of course you are.

Sorry, I need to double check...is that sarcasm is just a weird response?

Asherons_Call · April 2016

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

@FENGRUSH made this very clear about ZOS and how they DONT care for their customers in his last live review:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IzFS4RKA5uc

Fengrush said this fengrush said that I wonder what fengrush is wearing today I wonder if fengrush would let me move in to his apartment

wayfarerx · April 2016

Asherons_Call wrote: »

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

@FENGRUSH made this very clear about ZOS and how they DONT care for their customers in his last live review:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IzFS4RKA5uc

Fengrush said this fengrush said that I wonder what fengrush is wearing today I wonder if fengrush would let me move in to his apartment

Do you think fengrush likes me, or does he like me like me?

Elsonso · April 2016

wonkydog wrote: »

I disagree. If you ask them to fix your car - you don't have to know what is wrong to know it is broken - and then it breaks down on the way home you are well within your rights to say hire better staff

If people treated their car mechanic like the forum is treating ZOS, they would be doing a lot of walking.

This is mostly because the mechanic would hand them their keys and tell them to get lost.

Zerok · April 2016

Hmm.

I used to post a lot on the Paradox Development Studios (PDS) forums and some players were basically saying the same thing, that PDS had the worst programmers ever.

In other words, your claim is as empty as PDS' players claims, because everything is subjective.

Lysette · April 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

I disagree. If you ask them to fix your car - you don't have to know what is wrong to know it is broken - and then it breaks down on the way home you are well within your rights to say hire better staff

If people treated their car mechanic like the forum is treating ZOS, they would be doing a lot of walking.

This is mostly because the mechanic would hand them their keys and tell them to get lost.

Not after the contract is made - I would rent a car and the mechanic would have to pay for it until my car is repaired properly and on top of it some compensation for my hassle with it and my lawyers as well. This is how this would work out.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · April 2016

Browiseth wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Or are you suggesting there are people going, man i really wish they would hurry up and add/fix this X content i dont even play, and just ignore this Y content that i enjoy?

Uh, actually
I'm that sort of person.

Of course you are.

Sorry, I need to double check...is that sarcasm is just a weird response?

Sarcasm. So if they spent the next year adding nothing at all you are interested in, you would just keep playing along?

I guess my next question is, if you dont care if games do or add things you are interested in how do you decide which games you play? Randomly pull them out of a hat? And when do you quit games? If you are ok with nothing you are interested in ever being added why arent you still playing the first game you ever played?

Autolycus · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

Lysette · April 2016

It might not even be the tech guys, who are to blame here, but the management, which thinks, the game works well enough for the masses and most will not experience these bugs or if they do, they won't complain but just live with it. So there is no real intention to fix stuff, but just go with it. What is not easy to be fixed, will just not be fixed, even they might make a workaround attempt. If it works, fine, if not, screw it. New players outweight those leaving and so they see no urgent need to fix stuff. So basically using the Eisenhower principle - not urgent, not important - forget about it - I guess, that is what the management is thinking.

Uriel_Nocturne · April 2016

Read the entire thread.

So much anger, so many impossible leaps of logic, so much outright misinformation... if I were a developer at Zeni, I'd avoid this unmitigated *** thread as well. It's quite apparent that almost none of you know how an online business runs (or any business for that matter, in any industry).

But, thanks for the humor though. I really needed it with the way my day is going so far.

Xjcon · April 2016

Egonieser wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

The only reason they can do it is because there are no laws yet about this kind of crap, if it were another type of product everyone would be getting full refunds and then they would care enough not to let it get this bad.

There are in the UK now, and very recently passed (half a year ago iirc)
If ZoS was a UK company, they would get shut down or in some very major lawsuits ATM and forced (by law) to either issue refunds or fix the crap.
Corporate American ToS wouldn't work over here as there was a law specifically brought in place for DRM and digital goods in general so they can't do this crap over here and users are entitled to full refund or call the company out. Also ToS can't be made disregarding consumer rights, but instead have to follow government guidelines, instead of all this "We can do anything at any time without anybody's consent or permission and you as the user have no right to question us." Which is basically what most US based Publishers/Developers have in their ToS as there's no government law preventing it.

We as the consumers have purchased the right to play and access these services - so they as the service providers are obliged the services are running and smooth, or your money back. This should be brought in everywhere in the world considering we live in a digital age now - you would see that content and game quality would significantly improve as it would be required so by law.

Yea... just what we need....more government stepping in on things..... Its worked so well in everything else they have regulated so far....