47's thoughts on Vet Maelstrom arena. (post Morrowind thougths at the end of this old thread)

f047ys3v3n
f047ys3v3n
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I realize that clearly I am not the player I used to be as evidenced by the fact that I am unable to complete this content though at the end of 1.5 I was in the #1 group on two of the 4 trials. I was going to write my thoughts on this after a compete however, I have abandoned that idea as I am not able to do so with my Templar and do not have the time to come to master any other classes just as I did not have the time to complete maelstrom prior to the round saving mechanic. Having a kid does that, what can I say. I wouldn't trade it.

So, this is going to sound to many like an I can't complete this so nerf it whine fest. So be it. I have at least made it to boss execute phase (on 1 of at least 50 boss tries so execute is really not the problem). I also realize that development resources seem to be at an all time low so fixing this in a way that is not just a nerf would be quite difficult and probably it will at some point either be nerfed or just left in the lousy state it is in. Anyhow, here are my thoughts as brief as they can be, round by round really mostly addressing the boss rounds.

1) Vale of the Surreal - This is a warm up round. There is not much to it. If you died you are in real trouble buddy. I wouldn't bother changing it.

2) Seht's Balcony - This is basically a heals check and gives you something of an idea of the mostly unavoidability of a substantial amount of damage in VMA. I say mostly unavoidable because there is a mechanic where you can turn off the spinning blades temporarily but there is a substantial time out between available lever uses on this so you will, in all probability, just heal through the thing and pull the levers occasionally. It doesn't really feel much like a mechanic but rather feels rather cobbled together in the way that many things in VMA do. Anyhow, again, you are unlikely to die here if you have anything like the spec you will need to complete.

3) Dome of Toxic Shock - The funny thing about this is that I actually thought this arena was easier before the stranglers were "fixed." Then, and now, the arena is mostly about kill order with the stranglers first. This is the first really hard arena in VMA because it is the first where you will be constantly CC'd in addition to the obligatory rather constant incoming damage. All that said, it is the last arena you are likely to complete without a very specific strategy. Had I ever had one here it would probably be easy but strategies come from multiple fails and familiarity and I just didn't fail enough to have play by play knowledge of the thing.

4) Seht's Flywheel - Of all the arena's, this one has the poorest design. I say that because all through the regular rounds you become used to a straightforward kill order where you keep up on the little, harmless looking, dwemer things which will shield up and constantly CC and harass you if ignored and then kill the immediately dangerous things next. Then you get to the boss round and forget all that. It is not that that primary mechanic is not present anymore, it is. It is just that the bosses mechanics dictate that in order to do dps on him and not take massive damage you must stand under him half of the time. All those little guys that you need to kill spawn across a raised center from the boss during that first phase so if you want to get them you will have to ignore the boss during this primary dps time. Tempting or not, if you do so, not only would the fight take well over twice as long, but you are unlikely to keep up with the adds that spawn each phase. Since the other phase is an unavoidable high incoming damage phase, and since one of those soon to be adds is a sorc who will happily streak stun you to certain death, I would suggest you grab the dps sigil, pop a power pot, and give it your full dps burn. Your welcome. If you happen to be a developer reading this, do not pit one mechanic against another. For instance, how about during the boss shields you phase you spawn some kill you adds and during the other phase you spawn those little shield mechanic adds so the player switches from boss to little shield adds with phase and does AOE on boss and dangerous adds during the shield up phase. Just I thought. I'm happy to burn it down. Really, it's not that hard a dps check given that you can actually focus on dps during most of it instead of healing like most dps checks in VMA.

5) Rink of Frozen Blood - If you have not rage quit yet here is where it will probably happen as it did for me each time prior to being able to save progress. Your 5 rounds in and if your as weak as me you are likely starting to loose sharpness and then you get this round. The primary mechanic is simple enough. You kill the stompy trolls before they break the ice and leave you no where to stand. Depending on which round the order after that has some variance and basically comes down to the archers hit really hard, there are wrecking blow guys who do exactly what they do in PVP, and a few other ads that have CC's. Enter the boss round and more CC's. I will warn you, you may get very good at these mechanics and still die, especially if you are a Templar. Each platform must be done in turn because each spawn is dependent on boss health which also determines when platforms get broke (assuming you don't screw up and let a troll live.) Do not dps the boss to fast, it is about timing the coreagraphy not burn until the last platform where you drop trou and let it all fly. The difficulty in this well choreographed game is that many of the adds are ranged and pulling them close enough to AOE will still leave you facing away from the boss as a Templar unless you run out in the freezing water and risk an likely death if the boss fears. This backwards facing means you have some difficulty with tells from the boss or the wrecking blow guy. Beware, total there are at least 4 hard CC's with a boss fear, boss face smack, add wrecking blow, and Nereid ice thing. In the end, even with careful timing, coordination, and awareness it is a lot of CC's to avoid and requires some degree of luck because the fear can lead into any of the others resulting in your no fault untimely demise. In short, it will feel unfair because it is. My advice to the developers is to increase the size of the islands slightly or decrease the ranged adds range slightly so that they can be better positioned. The boss fear should also go as it conspires with the adds CC's to give players no fault deaths. I should also add that the Templar total dark ability does not seem to work fully on any of the adds. I wonder, does DK flappy? In any case, the Nereid fires ice bolts right though it and although the archer and mage do not damage you through it they also do not appear to take any of their own damage. I find this sort of thing a recurring annoyance as a Templar. You come out and say we don't need useful in VMA things like a class major expedition or major spell power as we apparently have all the tools we need but many of our useful tools specifically do not work, even on adds. I figured, Archer hits hard, he can bloody well kill himself. That is worth a bar slot usually used for something else. No dice.

6) Spiral Shadow - This is hands down the best arena in the game and the only one I can actually say I enjoyed. Both major mechanics of this round center on getting and using pillars. You kill horvars to uncover them, make sure spiders don't recover them, hide in their glow from swarms of death, and get 5 uncovered to stun everything. If you can play all these mechanics you will do well as the raw incoming damage is not as massive as most other arenas and the dps checks are not as high. It is the round with the most mechanics and it was a lot of fun I wouldn't change a thing.

7) Vault of Umbrage - A round many will take Umbrage at, lol, I couldn't resist. The main mechanic is avoiding being near mushrooms as they will poison you and make you run shielding to the green for cleanse (shield not heal as it is a massive heal debuff in case you thought breath was worth the cost.) Interestingly, unlike many other rounds, you can actually make a mistake and sometimes live. Incoming damage tends to be high and stunning adds are prevalent so bad timing on a mistake means death but really there are many other places where no mistakes period is the rule. Really I have little problem with the Vault until the end and the issue I have there is that, because mushroom spawns are random, they will sometimes spawn in a way to prevent you from having a shield castor to stand under in a safe location. If you have none you will likely die from poison during the shield phase as you can't leave the shield and will be poisoned. That is not real fair. My change to the Vault is to have the shield dispel poison as well. I should also note that in PTS Templar purify removed the poison. It was apparently OP to have our class ability do what it was intended to do so this was ended. Templars don't seem to be doing so well now do they? I'm just saying, there is a reason we are all paranoid when many of our important utility abilities are rendered useless and we are told we don't need the types of things others use all while our complete rate is on the far low side despite being one of the more common classes.

8) Igneous Cistern - This round combines a basic kill order mechanics with a break the stones un-shield and stun the boss mechanic. This is also one of the few fights that, as a Templar, you will still be able to keep your distance from nasty melee death stuff. Really, most of round 8 is more about dealing with high incoming damage and prevalent stuns if you ask me but that is true of much of VMA. Most see this round as a little of a break before the final round.

9) Theater of Despair - Ok, so instead of the final boss being it's own arena it is thrown into arena 9 which then makes it have an extra round. I'm sure this didn't matter at first but now it is a royal PITA as you must then go through all those each time you want to attempt the final boss. They are not really that hard but it is a barrier nevertheless to me each time I try the final boss as it's about another 15min. So, these first rounds have stuns and extremely high incoming deeps from the crematorium guards with the mechanics of killing summoners, avoiding white ghosts and collecting gold ones. Get it down and you will roll. The boss is another story. It is a 3 stage fight and the bottom line is that, though the mechanics are excellent, the dps check and heal check have proved my better. You start dpsing the boss, dodge the big skull, interrupt him immediately after teleport. Kill the healer, dps boss and crematorium gaurd, avoid boss explosion, dodge skull immediately after boss teleport. Finish gaurd if still up. Get boss to 70 at which point he goes upstairs. Kill healer then kill clanfear on lit pad so you can use it to go up. Up top you must dps three crystals while dodging the big skulls, avoiding meteors which will stun you so but oddly not immediately kill you given that you will be hit by another and another while perma-stunned until you die. Periodically the boss will summon a wall you must hide behind to avoid a big insta-death stomp and this wall will move rather fast and appears to get faster each time. The dps check is real as you are handling a lot of mechanics and moderate incoming unavoidable damage during this. Soon you will be unable to stay with the wall. If you survive this phase the final one is actually easier. You dps the boss while avoiding his same mechanics and any adds convenient while picking up gold ghosts. Get 3, boss stunned, and if you did enough dps you execute him on his knees. I have only reached that final stage once and was unwise to not do enough dps on the boss before the stun. If you do not you will likely be overwhelmed after that point. So, my take. It is mostly a good fight with great mechanics. In that regard the only things I would change would be to program the ghosts and boss teleports in such a way that there can never be a white ghost between you and the boss when he teleports for his attack that must be interrupted. If there is it is a no fault wipe. Beyond that I would just reduce Crematorium guard damage by about 15% and slow the wall upstairs so Templars and DK's can get to it. Using speed potions is easy to say but as this either brings major buffs offline or casts time to cast them it is lowered DPS either way and that check is for real since, as a Templar or DK, you are pretty much obligatorily playing melee to heal while doing DPS.

So that is what I have to say. Yea, I would like a few nerfs to Maelstrom some on content I have completed and some on content I have not. More importantly, I would like some specific changes here and there to unfair mechanics that cause no fault deaths that you probably only face in 1 in 4 runs let me know what you all think.

-47
Edited by f047ys3v3n on June 4, 2017 7:37AM
I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • Bofrari
    Bofrari
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    L2P issue.
  • Solariken
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    I feel you, that last round sucks balls. There is SOOO much luck involved. I play Stamplar, and I start having serious resource issues up on the platform without any bodies to Repentance. Often after breaking the three pillars I have no stam left and just get rekt.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    47 -

    How you feel is how pretty much the entire player base felt when they first tried doing this. It's not so much hard as it is unforgiving. Unforgiving means if you are off, dont quite have a strategy down, or are playing a templar without a 20K hardened ward and you are going to die. A lot. But once you get a strategy, it becomes *a lot* more manageable. Even for a templar.

    For round 4 - I dont think the designers intended for players to *have* to kill the little sentries. I only kill them if convenient.

    For round 5 - Some Nereids are mini-bosses. Total dark won't work on them.

    For round 6 - Odd you found this the best design. I think it's the worst. "Safe zone" + high damage ground AoE spawning under your feet is IMHO a terrible design. So are automatic death timers on bosses.

    For round 9 - It sounds like you are trying an advanced strategy as opposed to one that will get you a complete. You can kill the healer before the dealing with the crematorium guard, but this is more difficult. The top isn't necessarily a DPS race, you can voluntarily drop down. On stage 3, all you have to do is collect 3 ghosts and you can stun every crematorium guard that spawns; you don't have to burn the boss.

    The most conservative way to do the boss round on a templar IMHO is:
    1. Grab power sigal. You do this because you need to get boss down to 70% fast and saving it for the end doesn't help if you're dying to the first crematorium guard.
    2. DPS boss.
    3. Interrupt channel with toppling charge.
    4. Move away (crystal will spawn) and apply harness magicka
    5. As soon as daedroth spawns, use an ultimate - meteor is up, else dawnbreaker. make sure the boss in the in AoE Get the healer in it convenient.
    6. Puncturing sweep everything and do not stop for any reason except to dodge a skull after the boss teleports (ideally the Guard should die before that). If the healer is nearby get him in the sweep spam too but make sure the boss is getting hit. The only danger here is a crystal will spawn while sweeping...just move.
    7. If done correctly, 6 should always work even with the daedroth breathing and biting. If this is proving too difficult, grab the defensive sigal.
    8. Boss should be at like 75%. Easy peasy bringing him down to 70%
    9. If the boss was at like 81%, IGNORE the healer (except to interrupt) and quickly kill the clannfear and get upstairs because a second daedroth will spawn. If it does and it breathes on you, you cant purge or cleanse that dot if u go upstairs.

    Stage 2:
    1. destroying the 3 crystals is not easy as a templar because you lack dots, have channels, and limited mobility. I can do it on my DK and my sorc. It's too much trouble on my templar so I dont even try...because it's actually safer.
    2. Since you are not in a rush, you wont be pressured into making a mistake up top and will always avoid the comets, skulls, and stay behind the wall. Less stress.
    3. Use your meteor when you get up here. It will almost be up and you'll have another ulti up when you need it.
    4. Use harness if hiding behind the wall but too far away to dps crystals. toppling is good for mobility here.
    5. I jump down (as opposed to getting thrown off and stunned) just before the third wall appears (the one that is faster than your sprint speed... the pattern is 1 skull, first wall, 2 skulls, second wall, 2 skulls - jump here). Jump down with harness on.
    6. While you falling, make out where the healing sigal is and grab it immediately. It doesn't matter if the daedroth is standing on it - grab it!
    7. You get the daedroth, the clannfear, and the healer all in your puncturing sweep spam. Get your ultimate in too (whatever is up). Never stop sweeping. Hitting all 3 plus the healing sigal is enough that they cant kill you. Your only danger is avoiding the lich crystals that spawn (I move around in a circle). Eventually all they all die. It sounds crazy but the way ESO has made templars is to completely gut their defense to the point where ironically their best means of survival is to be in the most danger spamming puncturing sweeps. It's easier killing those 3 than the DPS race up top.
    8. Go up at your leisure and finish off the crystals.

    Stage 3:
    1. People say it's easier. These people are sorcerers. As a templar you have no mobility to chase down the stupid ghosts, you dont have fossilize/agony/rune prison to completely and permanently neutralize the summoner, and half the time you interrupt the boss with toppling, you will eat a white ghost.
    2. As soon as you drop down, meteor the boss, interrupt the boss, grab gold ghost, grab speed sigal.
    3. Your priorities after are in order: interrupt boss's channel, grab gold ghost, kill summoner, DPS boss
    4. If you do this correctly, 9/10 the only way you lose if you make a correctable mistake, the other 1/10 is because the boss teleported right onto a gold ghost.
    5. The crematorium guard spawns after every 3 ghosts. This means you always stun it (ideally next to the boss but don't take an unnecessary risk), use dawnbreaker, and DPS it down before it can do anything. This makes completing this stage is actually a matter of not dying, as opposed to a DPS race. The hardest part of this stage is keeping an eye on the boss's channeled attack.
    6. If you miss a gold ghost things get complicated. One will spawn as soon as the daedroth does, if you have two locked up (and you should), just go get it for the stun. If you can't stun, bring the daedroth next to the boss because the whole more stuff you hit, the more you heal thing AND, the boss will channel an attack you have to interrupt.
    7. Also - you probably will have the defensive sigal here. Don't be shy, grab it.
    ******

    These steps are all aimed at minimizing risk as opposed to maximizing potential. Following this method, I actually die more often on the third round of Stage 9 than on the final boss.
    Edited by Joy_Division on March 13, 2016 8:23AM
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • strikeback1247
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    I play a stam dk and I actually like the stage 9 final boss. If you get really good you can actually dodge everything when killing the crystals. If I can get past that stage I have 3 things that can keep me alive for long enough to kill the boss: spectral explosion, corrosive armor and the defense rune if really necessary.

    Also, in the other stages and rounds it's sooooo satisfying to reflect a 110k+ focused aim back to an archer :D
    P.A.W.S. - Positively Against Wild Sasquatches - NO TO BIGFOOT!
  • Attackopsn
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    I've always felt that round 5 was the big rng round that had the highest chance of negatively impacting my time. I love the final fight. I believe that about 99.9% of the time the final is based on your ability to tackle the mechanics efficiently. It's the paradigm of well designed mechanics, and I wish the whole arena shared this.
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
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  • ub17_ESO
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    Just feel like adding that now that i get major mending while standing in rune stage 9 is much much easier. I easily heal through the crematorial guard fire as long as i am standing in my rune.
  • andy_s
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    Dunno if you are on PC or console, but with Update 9 templars are so much stronger: more dps, less incoming damage, bigger heals. All you need is more practice, and don't stay in your house, you need to move a lot there :smiley:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZwAOiXaWqA
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  • Molec
    Molec
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    andy.s wrote: »
    Dunno if you are on PC or console, but with Update 9 templars are so much stronger: more dps, less incoming damage, bigger heals. All you need is more practice, and don't stay in your house, you need to move a lot there :smiley:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZwAOiXaWqA
    Attackopsn wrote: »
    I've always felt that round 5 was the big rng round that had the highest chance of negatively impacting my time. I love the final fight. I believe that about 99.9% of the time the final is based on your ability to tackle the mechanics efficiently. It's the paradigm of well designed mechanics, and I wish the whole arena shared this.

    "Well designed mechanics" There's not much different in Stage 9 Round 6 than every other round in vMA, you still have to dodge and break stuns continuously otherwise the you end up with a ton of stacked damage which kills most. It's simply an arena of unforgiving stuns with a mediocre DPS requirement, nothing else. It's enough to drive some from the game that's for sure especially if this is the future of ESO "Challenging Content".
    Edited by Molec on March 13, 2016 12:36PM
    PC-EU 666cp+

    Molec - Dunmer Magika Sorc
    Lucius Bal - Altmer Magika DK
    Avborh - Breton Magika Templar
    Skorun - Altmer Magika NB
    Darum-Zar - Khajiit Stamina DK
    Nephi Dagon - Argonian Mag Templar
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    George Carlin — "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
  • f047ys3v3n
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    Joy, thank you for your tips, particularly regarding the third wall on the top phase. I mistakenly believed that each wall would be faster as the third wall tends to be my doom and none of the videos I had seen depicted that rather clever and counter intuitive jumping down strategy. I will incorporate this in my attempts and I have a few ideas left to try to raise my percent completes on the fist stage.

    I also read your post on the Templar thieves guild changes. I agree with most of it and find it very interesting that with a big dps increase on raid dps and a big heals increase in raid heals I find myself generally weaker in PVP and Maelstrom. The thing about that big dps boost for me (really, I am competitive with NB's now and had 20.4k on my first post patch manti-burn) is that it is dependent on keeping up 3 dots in Purifying light, Vamp bane, and wall of the elements, a force pulse weave, a DK running my major spell buff, and being able to channel my execute without interruption for healing. In short, it is totally unsuitable for any content were I must do my own buffs or have utility anywhere on my bar. Similarly, the major mending stuff, for which I must cast the skill and stand in it, is also not so much helpful in PVP or especially Maelstrom. I should note that Purifying ritual will reliably purify very little in Maelsrom and has a massive .5k healing tick. Seriously, .5k so OP, I can heal an enemy light attack with that in only 16 seconds lol. I find it very revealing on the state of the class that adding these major helpful changes was of so much lesser effect in so much content than the small puncturing sweep nerf. It shows just how totally dependent Templars have become to that skill with the incremental removal of all defense (block, blinding flashes, sun shield, irrelevance of breath compared to damage output of enemies.) The bottom line is that the class has become a one trick pony who just got a broken leg. It is not that the nerf was so huge, indeed it looked on the face much smaller than the buffs. It is just that the class is so hollowed out that really that was the only skill it was dependent on in PVP and Maelstrom.
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • DRXHarbinger
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    Last boss is easy. Gun him down to crystal phase. Block as soon as you go up. Aoe on the crystal to the right and move onto the next one. Keep going anti clockwise. It's easier for when the wall goes too fast you go against it and catch up with it. When it's done and you're back down immediately interrupt and get the ghost. Burn him a little kill the summoner, get the ghost, interrupt and kill the summoner get the final ghost and wait...burn him and kill the crem guard first give it everything as you'll have an interrupt phase pretty much at this time again. Then explode grab power and fry him and possibly the summoner. Christ I can picture every little bit in my head been there so many times. It's not even fun it's stressful and just routine stupidity. As soon as I get a precise or sharpened inferno I'm never ever doing it again.
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  • Molec
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    Last boss is easy. Gun him down to crystal phase. Block as soon as you go up. Aoe on the crystal to the right and move onto the next one. Keep going anti clockwise. It's easier for when the wall goes too fast you go against it and catch up with it. When it's done and you're back down immediately interrupt and get the ghost. Burn him a little kill the summoner, get the ghost, interrupt and kill the summoner get the final ghost and wait...burn him and kill the crem guard first give it everything as you'll have an interrupt phase pretty much at this time again. Then explode grab power and fry him and possibly the summoner. Christ I can picture every little bit in my head been there so many times. It's not even fun it's stressful and just routine stupidity. As soon as I get a precise or sharpened inferno I'm never ever doing it again.

    This couldn't be worded any better, good luck with finding that Master inferno staff.

    PC-EU 666cp+

    Molec - Dunmer Magika Sorc
    Lucius Bal - Altmer Magika DK
    Avborh - Breton Magika Templar
    Skorun - Altmer Magika NB
    Darum-Zar - Khajiit Stamina DK
    Nephi Dagon - Argonian Mag Templar
    Warden of Red Mountain - Bosmer Stamina Warden
    Warden of Dagoth-Ur - Altmer Magika Warden

    George Carlin — "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
  • magnusthorek
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    As someone almost lime you, with physical limitations, I understand your pain and feel sorry about.

    But even so, it's sad that are still childish retardeds whom only pleasure in life is to throw a L2P at others face.
    I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
    I'm quite good at genetics (as a subset of biology) because I am an expert (which I know is a tautology).
    My xenoscience studies range from urban to agrarian, I am the very model of a Scientist Salarian.
  • laksikus
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    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    Beyond that I would just reduce Crematorium guard damage by about 15% and slow the wall upstairs so Templars and DK's can get to it. Using speed potions is easy to say but as this either brings major buffs offline or casts time to cast them it is lowered DPS either way and that check is for real since, as a Templar or DK, you are pretty much obligatorily playing melee to heal while doing DPS.

    So that is what I have to say. Yea, I would like a few nerfs to Maelstrom some on content I have completed and some on content I have not. More importantly, I would like some specific changes here and there to unfair mechanics that cause no fault deaths that you probably only face in 1 in 4 runs let me know what you all think.

    -47

    wall only gets faster if you kill crystals. if you bring them to 10-20% health all, it doesnt get faster and you can kill all without getting knocked down
  • OrphanHelgen
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    Read all of your post and 100% agree
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


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  • f047ys3v3n
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    Read all of your post and 100% agree

    Thanks, I tried to take my time to analyze carefully the specific issues that were causing things to feel unfair at times or preventing fights from feeling much like mechanics driven contests. I am glad that folks have found my thoughts on the subject insightful.
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • bedlom
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    So true, round 5 was where I gave up. I don't have enough time to play anymore to waste it on that.
    Edited by bedlom on March 17, 2016 8:23PM
  • UrQuan
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    I can't comment much on the specifics of what you're seeing in the different rounds, as I haven't actually attempted vMSA yet (I was waiting for the ability to save in between rounds, and since it was introduced I've been focusing on TG content - I plan to finally try out vMSA next week). I thought it was worth talking about this comment though:
    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    I realize that clearly I am not the player I used to be as evidenced by the fact that I am unable to complete this content though at the end of 1.5 I was in the #1 group on two of the 4 trials.
    I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you're not the player you used to be. It takes a different build and a different play style to do the toughest solo content in the game than it does to do the toughest group content in the game. Being unsuccessful at one doesn't mean that you're a worse player - it may just mean that you haven't adapted to the differences between playing in a group and playing solo.

    A player who's amazing at doing vMSA isn't necessarily a better player than a player who's amazing at doing trials but who can't complete vMSA, and the same could be said about a player who's amazing at doing trials compared to a player who's amazing at doing vMSA but who can't complete trials.
    Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC)
    Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC)
    Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP)
    Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD)
    J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD)
    Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC)
    Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP)
    Manut Redguard Temp (AD)
    Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP)
    Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD)
    Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP)
    Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC)
    Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP)
    Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC)
    Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp
    Someone stole my sweetroll
  • Xjcon
    Xjcon
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    Getting to the point of completes is only half the battle. The other half is the RNG you must over come to get the weapon you're after. I don't have a max level templar but I have 2 DK'S that I recently cleared it with. At this point you already know what to expect while in there so it becomes just a matter of executing what needs to happen.
    Briza Do'urdenx V16 Dunmer DK
    Jcon V16 Orc DK
    Vierna Do'urdenx V16 Bosmer NB
    Jarlaxle Baenrex V16 Dunmer NB
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    So, I've been messing around with a NB toon I created not to long ago. I'm not really all that good on it but I decided to give it a roll in VMA. I burned through the first 5 rounds with only 5 deaths. Wow that was easier. Healing while doing ranged dps and having major expidition 100% of the time are real game changers. It is like much of this thing was designed for NB's. I'm messing up round 6 boss fight now though which is ironic since I cruised on that on my Templar. My aoe keeps killing the little hoaravers out of position now and I must be making mistakes on what to kill first as it feels like I am putting good deeps on the boss but she is still getting to the one shot 60k spit phase and killing me each time. Apparently missing a horaver positioning is really not optional. Any advice folks?

    Hopefully I can figure this fight out and continue to cruise. I have certainly gained much insight on arena design and class balance as a result of this. Keep in mind that I do better ranged dps on my templar than on my NB, better raid heals, and am generally much more comfortable yet so far in arena the NB has been far cleaner. The arena design seems very slanted to the strengths of some classes and builds over others.
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    So, I've been messing around with a NB toon I created not to long ago. I'm not really all that good on it but I decided to give it a roll in VMA. I burned through the first 5 rounds with only 5 deaths. Wow that was easier. Healing while doing ranged dps and having major expidition 100% of the time are real game changers. It is like much of this thing was designed for NB's. I'm messing up round 6 boss fight now though which is ironic since I cruised on that on my Templar. My aoe keeps killing the little hoaravers out of position now and I must be making mistakes on what to kill first as it feels like I am putting good deeps on the boss but she is still getting to the one shot 60k spit phase and killing me each time. Apparently missing a horaver positioning is really not optional. Any advice folks?

    Hopefully I can figure this fight out and continue to cruise. I have certainly gained much insight on arena design and class balance as a result of this. Keep in mind that I do better ranged dps on my templar than on my NB, better raid heals, and am generally much more comfortable yet so far in arena the NB has been far cleaner. The arena design seems very slanted to the strengths of some classes and builds over others.

    I actually think your wrote a pretty decent guide to VMA. Haha. A templar is my last clear I need, and I need to give it a go here soon. It is funny how all classes have their strength and weaknesses on different rounds. On my sorc, round 5 is probably my least favorite. I am pretty squishy without a shield and run almost no stam, so a bad stun can get me. On my DK, I thought it was a joke. Flappy wings and a standard makes it a breeze. I thought the hardest fight (other than final boss) on a DK was number 7, but it never bothered me much on a Sorc once I figured out the mechanics. The last boss is what scared me most when I considered clearing on a toon that wasnt a Sorc or NB. I would follow @Joy_Division 's advice to the letter.

    I actually think a magic nightblade has the easiest time on non-boss rounds for the most part. Nothing beats an overload sorc for a boss fight, but that's not news to anyone. Like you pointed out, they do great ranged DPS and passively heal. You can pretty much run your normal rotation and do just fine in there. When I run on a NB, I dont use an AoE. I prefer to just single target everything. I do use refreshing path, and occasionally a veil, but I dont run Sap or Ring.

    Killing the hoarvers in the right spot is key on number 6. What I do is light attack them once so they move towards you. They are so squishy that one funnel weave will usually drop them. I then stand on top of the portal i want cleared, drop a refreshing path, wait for them to come to me, and then finish them off if the path doesnt do it for me. Seems to work. I usually try to stun the boss just before the big add spawns and do about a 60-0 burn. I will say that it blows my mind that 6 was your favorite round. I died a lot on round 6 boss before I figured it out.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    f047ys3v3n wrote: »
    So, I've been messing around with a NB toon I created not to long ago. I'm not really all that good on it but I decided to give it a roll in VMA. I burned through the first 5 rounds with only 5 deaths. Wow that was easier. Healing while doing ranged dps and having major expidition 100% of the time are real game changers. It is like much of this thing was designed for NB's. I'm messing up round 6 boss fight now though which is ironic since I cruised on that on my Templar. My aoe keeps killing the little hoaravers out of position now and I must be making mistakes on what to kill first as it feels like I am putting good deeps on the boss but she is still getting to the one shot 60k spit phase and killing me each time. Apparently missing a horaver positioning is really not optional. Any advice folks?

    Hopefully I can figure this fight out and continue to cruise. I have certainly gained much insight on arena design and class balance as a result of this. Keep in mind that I do better ranged dps on my templar than on my NB, better raid heals, and am generally much more comfortable yet so far in arena the NB has been far cleaner. The arena design seems very slanted to the strengths of some classes and builds over others.

    I actually think your wrote a pretty decent guide to VMA. Haha. A templar is my last clear I need, and I need to give it a go here soon. It is funny how all classes have their strength and weaknesses on different rounds. On my sorc, round 5 is probably my least favorite. I am pretty squishy without a shield and run almost no stam, so a bad stun can get me. On my DK, I thought it was a joke. Flappy wings and a standard makes it a breeze. I thought the hardest fight (other than final boss) on a DK was number 7, but it never bothered me much on a Sorc once I figured out the mechanics. The last boss is what scared me most when I considered clearing on a toon that wasnt a Sorc or NB. I would follow @Joy_Division 's advice to the letter.

    I actually think a magic nightblade has the easiest time on non-boss rounds for the most part. Nothing beats an overload sorc for a boss fight, but that's not news to anyone. Like you pointed out, they do great ranged DPS and passively heal. You can pretty much run your normal rotation and do just fine in there. When I run on a NB, I dont use an AoE. I prefer to just single target everything. I do use refreshing path, and occasionally a veil, but I dont run Sap or Ring.

    Killing the hoarvers in the right spot is key on number 6. What I do is light attack them once so they move towards you. They are so squishy that one funnel weave will usually drop them. I then stand on top of the portal i want cleared, drop a refreshing path, wait for them to come to me, and then finish them off if the path doesnt do it for me. Seems to work. I usually try to stun the boss just before the big add spawns and do about a 60-0 burn. I will say that it blows my mind that 6 was your favorite round. I died a lot on round 6 boss before I figured it out.

    Edit: FYI, 50 attempts on the last boss for a clear is nothing. I would take the over on 100 tries for most people to clear the first time if I was a betting man. Now, I am upset if I dont one-shot him. As said above, it is just unforgiving. Once you figure it out, it gets better. Also, ignore the healer in phase one until after I get the boss to 70%. I then kill it right before I go upstairs.
  • dsalter
    dsalter
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    you are a sick and twisted being if you could tolorate putting yourself through vet maelstrom arena... can Merunes Dagon have your autograph?
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    I did rounds 6, 7 and 8 today on my magic blade during baby nap time. I Staged the round 6 pillars nicely for the final boss fight and after watching a few more videos had the kill order better so I one shot that as well as arena 7's boss which, I knew well from my Templar. On arena 8 boss I made a mistake and it took 2 goes. I actually died a good bit on rounds 3 and 4 of a couple of the arenas as these are very dependent on knowing what spawns were and being right on that. I really didn't and wasn't as I have not seen each many times and the almost perfectly symmetrical nature of the arenas combined with my circle strafe behavior makes learning spawn locations hard.

    7 is probably the only arena so far that I found easier on my templar than the magica blade as the templar can have it's primary puncturing sweeps ability on the resto staff bar with healing ward so when you get the poison and healing debuff you survive more often. How do stam toons deal with this? They don't really have any universal shields and I don't imagine they can heal to keep up. Even when you don't screw up and eat poison I think the archers still heal debuff you. It is definitely a shields over heals round. I bet the sorcs ROFL it.

    Anyhow, if I finish pledges tonight, have a good internet connection, and still feel frisky I'll give the last arena a shot. I know the first two phases of the boss round like the back of my hand from failing on my templar and I feel the NB meshes well with the required mechanics. I'm sure the third phase will take a few tries but I feel good. Anyway, I'll finish up my thoughts and conclusions when I finish up the arena. Probably talk a little about drop rates and average expected farming time on VMA as well after I run the calculations on that.
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • JadeNaria
    JadeNaria
    ✭✭✭
    JDC1985 wrote: »
    L2P issue.

    Their text was very informative, smarter than your comment. Stopping being a follower with this whole "L2P" trend and get a personality of your own. You added nothing constructive here but the fact you have a Learn2BeOriginal issue.

    For being a thirty year old person you sure are immature.


    On topic, OP I agree with everything you said. I am one if those people who hasn't beat it. I have the right gear, cps and mind set for it but sometimes it's just too overwhelming.

    Round four is where I am stuck. I get so impatient there. All in all, your post was like a guide and helpful thank you ! Next time I go in I will be referring back to your post.
    Trueflame or Haderus NA PC AD
    Talia Shade VR10 Stamina Nightblade
    Divinity Day VR16 Magicka Sorc
    Amaria Day VR16 Magicka DK
    Kali Day Level 28 Magicka Templar - Playing the most now
    Oblivion's Orphans Trading Guild - GM
    Mizery Records Raiding Guild- Member
    Resilient PVP Guild - Member


    SAVE ESO PVP, WE MATTER.
    #FIXPVP

  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    So, I completed on my NB last night. I think the final round took me about 10 deaths and I had one or two on some combination of rounds 4 and 5. Anyhow, the plan I had to kite the crematorium guards with major expedition and blur active was a total fail. The guard proved to be hella fast and I don't think blur does a darn thing on his conal AOE. Dodge chance probably doesn't effect a channeled conal aoe. I next tried adding annulment because so many people were so inexplicably happy with that on this fight. On a nb with 40k max magic and about 2,600 spell damage that magica only shield is 12k. I might add you are taking physical damage from the guard to the tune of about 14k as well as the sheildable flame damage. My take, it was a waste of time.

    Finally, I decided that philosophically I was looking at all this the wrong way. The crematorium guards are simply not meant to be tackled like an add with more dps, more heals, proper kill order, interrupts, or kiting. It is a tank like challenge to be mitigated. Basically, you probably have 3 of these at your disposal with your ultimate, the healing sigil, and the shield sigil. If you are a super badass, like the guys in the youtube videos, you will only kill one crematorium guard, the first one. If you are a more normal player you will kill a max of three. These being, the first one, one when you drop down during crystal phase before the third wall, and one in the last phase who hopefully will be stunned on top the boss while you kill him. I would use the healing sigal first, the defense for the harder second one and on the third, just aoe it with the boss with your ultimate on his head. If you want to do the fight without sigils, well, you have to be a monster dps badass and probably also have to be a magica sorc or NB. With my NB, I didn't have to kill the third because, deeps that fool boss on his knees, but I still had to do the other two. With my templar I expect I will have to kill three and do two gold ghost rotations on round 3.

    Overall, what I learned doing, and eventually completing, VMA on my NB after not quite getting it done on my templar changed only a few of my thoughts on the arenas:

    6: Spiral Shadow - I see the issue people are having this the boss one shot mechanic. I think they put it in there to require you to use all 5 pillar stun mechanic but in practice it actually makes the fight a pretty steep dps race that is totally intolerant of more tanky builds or even much AOE as it is hard to do aoe and not kill the little horvers out of position (yea, I know you can throw the goo pile if that happens). It still felt pretty cheap when that boss would 66k spit on me and I don't find that a good solution.

    7: Vault of Umbrage - Many people find this the second hardest arena. I think that the biggest reason for this is not actually the broken mechanic of poison under the healer shield occasionally but rather the heal debuff. On my NB this was a problem as most of the time you are healing on a destro bar having no class shield. Many times I had to switch bars to AOE with a resto staff bar with healing ward even though I would rather have been single targeting. I am not sure how stam toons do this as they don't have a universal shield. I really am not in a position to make any definitive judgment as I haven't run it on a stam toon but suffice it to say you have to be really careful when you debuff heals by such a large percentage as it is easy to make things sheild only when you have not really equipped everybody with good shield options the same way as most have good heals options. In fact, you have one class that is pretty much sheild when all others are heals.

    9: Theater of Despair - So I have a little more toleration of the Crematorium guards damage output now that I philosophically view them differently. However, most players will have to kill 3 and can be expected to have an ultimate up for only two provided they don't use it on a crystal. That basically requires the use of sigils. Perhaps a better punishment for dropping down on crystal phase would be an Ogrim with the spectral Clanfear and healer instead of the Crematorium guard. This would make the use of sigils a bit less mandatory for most players than it currently is while still subjecting them to the might of full power Crematorium guards. Having an ultimate up for mitigation of the first and third is Crematorium guard is no problem. I think the second might be dicey. I also have more toleration of speed of the walls in the crystal phase knowing that it doesn't need to be done all at once before the fast wall comes.

    Lastly, we need to talk about drop rates. I got a ring of the hunt for my complete by the way. Wow, what a bad set in magnitude (5 piece bonus of 1k stam and 2k health with cooldown), concept (stam with pets when sorc pets scale off magic) and placement (reward for hardcore content.) Before you do farming of anything in ESO you need to calculate whether it is worth it to you. This involves enjoyment of the content, usefulness or sale value of the gear, ETA (Expected Time to Aquisition,) and how long you think it will be until the gear is retired or nerfed. In VMA you have solo content that is very challenging so you really can't chat with your buddies while doing it. I, and most find it too stressful and antisocial to be enjoyable. You feel very accomplished when you do it the first time and the title is great so I recommend it but it would not be fun to grind. The gear can be excellent. Per piece, VMA weapons are easily the most powerful PVE gear ever made but none of it, not even the crap you often get instead of weapons, is salable and the dungeon is rather costly in repairs and potions to run. Lastly you have the ETA. I have heard anywhere from 25% to 75% on drop rates though the guys I know who have run it most think 50% or a little lower for the chance of getting a weapon. There are 12 weapons and 3 traits each. Honestly, most people think that the usually undesirable defending trait drops the most but we will pretend, for the calculations, all is even though I know from the head farming numbers I did that ZOS does often disproportionately give less desirable outcomes. If you are a PVE magica dps, as I usually am, you probably want a flame staff in sharpened or precise. Assuming a 50% weapon drop rate and an even chance for each trait (these are best case scenarios) you are looking at a 1/36 or around 2.8% chance on any given complete to get one of these staffs. This is also assuming you are to slow in your run or need several days for your run and can't get the automatic weekly weapon for making the leaderboard. That 1/36 chance translates into a mean number of runs or ETA of 26 completes to get one of your desired weapons. This means half players will have it by then not all. 6% of players will do 100 runs with no luck. Imagine that. If this was a dungeon head farm those would be great numbers. You could probably farm the head in about 2 nights with some hardcore buddies with 10min speed runs. Since this is an arena, no speed run skipping, and a long and stressful one at that, I really don't see being able to hit it more than once a day making ETA almost a month in real time with little else done in game. I'm not about to bite on doing something this stressful, antisocial, and not fun for a month in game. This is especially true since the last, and most uncertain, part of the calculation does not bode well. VMA weapons are many times more powerful than many sets that have been nerfed for being OP in the past. They also come from content already 6mos old. Perhaps it is because I was burnt so bad on my Infallible Aether and Vicious Ophidian gear in the past but I am gun shy now I will tell you what. I think the point at which I would bite would probably be a drop rate of 2 weapons per run guaranteed. For now, I will try to get the title on my Templar and not grind either because that tasty carrot is on a string man.

    To leave on a positive note for now. I feel very accomplished having done this and accosted poor Health Insurance on the rock in Rawl to crow about it. Lol, he probably doesn't even remember me and he has the Flawless Conquerer title so I'm not sure he even remembers how happy he was after his first complete. It was 2am though and I just had to tell somebody I vaguely remembered running with. I probably should have at least given the guy a few Frothgars for the trouble.

    Thanks to Joy for the tips as well as SHarmony, Alcast, and Deltia for the videos.
    Edited by f047ys3v3n on April 13, 2016 6:30PM
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
  • Docmandu
    Docmandu
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    Finally sat down last weekend to do it on my stamplar. Stage 7 was annoying due to the random spawns, with more times than I care to admit , a stupid shroom next to the bubble mage.. I didn't have issues with a healing debuff, heck didn't even know there is one. Didn't have much probs with the archers either (using shield sigil).

    It's quite frustrating at times (for first timers).. especially the bugs. Heck in Stage 8 I had that channeled flame guy in the boss round, I charge to him and my character actually charges to nowhere near the mob, but still hit it.. so I move to where the mob actually was standing and couldn't hit it! So moved back to where I gap closed to and while punching in the air was actually hitting the mob that was standing couple of meters away... fun stuff.

    Stage 9 final round, the crema guard gave me troubles.. circle kiting sometimes worked, sometimes didn't, which would melt me most of the times... dunno if it was lag or me screwing up... anyway called it a day after a few tries.. probably will be a while before I try again.. can't say I really enjoy doing it, but being able to finish it might give some satisfaction.. so who knows.


    Stages 6 & 7 gave me the most problems. Stage 8 at first until I figured out to ignore the adds during the boss and focus on evading the boss' attacks, then it was easy (when mobs didn't bug out).
    Stage 9 well didn't complete it, but upto the final round, it wasn't that much different to all the other stuff.
  • ZoM_Head
    ZoM_Head
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    4) Seht's Flywheel : Last boss when he starts throwing fire aoes, despite you being clearly 5-10 meters out of the AOE, you still take full damage and get hit by every single aoe he casts....

    That is what pisses me off ^^
    mDKs still need a lot of love!
  • Shader_Shibes
    Shader_Shibes
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    ZoM_Head wrote: »
    4) Seht's Flywheel : Last boss when he starts throwing fire aoes, despite you being clearly 5-10 meters out of the AOE, you still take full damage and get hit by every single aoe he casts....

    That is what pisses me off ^^

    Kinda like any ground aoe in the game then, but yeah, annoying.
  • EsoRecon
    EsoRecon
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    I am on a sorc, ya I don't care, I don't like hardcore pve. I like pvp so I wanted the easiest class to do this on. And all I can say is just keep trying. I can remember when I was stuck on stage 1 of vMA. The last boss of stage 9 took me a while too. If you keep trying eventually something will click and everytime from then on is a cakewalk.

    Also make sure your gear is good. If your stats are sub par as mine were for a long time, it will significantly hinder you. At least this is what I have found. Good Luck!



    Maelstrom Sucks
    Edited by EsoRecon on April 13, 2016 12:28PM
    Xbox One [ NA ]
    Gamertag - Zyzz II Legacy
    Stam Sorc & Stam NB PvP
    (I'm Just Here To 1vX)
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    So, I got board in the week before dark brotherhood because nobody was doing anything and I was sick to death of running my head into that second VMOL boss which we now do very mechanically well but still can't get done because 4 adds is really a bit much. I wandered into VMA to see how it would go now that I have been pretty much exclusively playing the NB a while and have gotten very good. It went generally a lot better with my big deeps and remembering the boss mechanics well and I pretty much just died to the late non-boss rounds which are basically about memorizing spawn locations and pre-damaging the correct enemies. This continues to get under my skin. I do not like that the most important thing in this content is to memorize a bunch of spawn locations in basically circular arenas that I never cease to get turned around in. It is an annoyance I had to a lesser extend in VDSA and I just don't find it fun.

    Anyhow, I saved the last arena for post patch because I wanted to get a drop. That last arena actually felt harder. I am not sure if the monsters were buffed or myself debuffed. I think that it is probably mostly a case of the removal of NB double crit heals taking my heals down by a very large percent. I had added CP into blessed at the expense of DPS anticipating this but the removal of double crits was a much bigger nerf than I gave it credit for as the issue I was having was simple being burnt down by all the incoming damage. I shouldn't complain, I am sure Sorcs are feeling it much more than me with both a heals nerf to crit surge which is now probably worthless because cool-downs make everything worthless and also a shield nerf. I actually started to use a shield in absorb magica with it's change to a general shield. I really had no choice, whereas I didn't need it before, I sure did now.

    Running the arena again didn't really change my mind much. I got a crappy tanking ring of glory that I will tell you where to shove so obviously I found the experience unrewarding. I still found the same mechanics conspiratorial in unfair ways. I had 3 consecutive tries in the boss round of arena 7 have the little shield guys spawn on mushrooms which popped resulting in wipes. I also had a case in a preliminary round of arena 9 where I picked up the shield sigil. and was consecutively stunned, and talloned in red for almost 20 seconds before finally dying because with a shield sigil and NB HOT's ticking all the time it takes a long time to die even when you are endlessly CC locked. This was actually amusing as it illustrated the absurd level of unfairness that can result when you just throw a bunch of enemies with CC's into an arena with a player who cannot get CC immunity and leave it to the fates to decide when each enemy fires a CC.

    For what it is worth VMA probably represents a genuinely good attempt at making challenging solo content in an MMO but that dosen't keep it from being biased to a few specific builds, unfair in it's CC's and random conspiracies of enemy mechanics at many times, very long, not particularly fun, way to dependent on spawn memorization and pre-damage in preliminary rounds, and ultimately quite unrewarding as far as drops go.
    I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.
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