Minalan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

No magicka regen while a shield casted by magicka is active. Give them block treatment and they wont be OP.

Yeah, you can do that to Ward at the same time you do it to Cloak.

Why is every sorc response 'do it to cloak or nb's this, nb's that' We are talking about sorc just the fact that nb's are a thing is not a valid defence/arguement.

It is when they're 90% of the whiners in this thread. They have an easy two button kill, and sorcs are the only class not immediately falling to their ganking feet.

Therefore. Must nerf.

Our response it to Laugh at said magicka NB, because of their ridiculous cheese. It's harder for YOU to kill us, nobody else seems to be having any issues.

Everyone else has issues, thats the problem, it's stupidly hard for a magicka build to kill a half good sorc, it makes bad players be able to pvp decent because it's so strong.

It's why those sorc vs sorc duels last forever.

Sk000tch wrote: »

Damn man I don't remember making that 3am post... fortunately it mostly makes sense.

Fights already last forever because of endless reinforcement from forward camps. It used to mean something to flag a keep. I guess that's a whole different issue, but it contributes to the current gameplay issues.

The game is more interesting with diverse builds, tanky tanks, strong support abilities, an emphasis group coordination, and positional tactics beyond balling for pushes and spreading out when bombs are incoming. Shortly after TG dropped we tried a bunch of cool *** like kiting zergs into choke points, putting a Fasalla's guile stam DK up front, throwing caltrops, springs, nova on him, shielded sorcs streaking through with VD and timed proxies. Cool ideas and fun to try, but given the current issues with mobility and mitigation, its more trouble than its worth. Its just more effective to bomb, camp, repeat. I don't even change my skill bars between group and solo anymore, because its all just the same.

I'm not saying sorc shields aren't strong, they are. I don't think people appreciate that they are using 3 of their 8 non-ult skill slots just to stay alive though, whereas other classes get away with using 2, or even 1. It leaves very little room for build diversity, and is a big part of the reason most sorcs run nearly identical builds. I bet most sorcs would be fine with removing shield stacking in exchange for a combination of passives and changes to hardened ward or a decent self-heal that resulted in comparable survivability.

All I'm saying is the these threads are pushing the game the wrong way. Less damage mitigation makes the game less interesting.

The only thing this thread is trying to push is for Magicka Sorc to be brought into line with other classes, wether that be by nerfing their defensive capabilities or buffing that of others. All this other noise people are making about Nightblades and zergs and vicious death etc is completely irrelevant to the point of this thread. All I see is a bunch of sorcs trying to derail the conversation. I am claiming sorcs are unbalanced. Will you argue against that claim? If not stop making this thread about something its not.

"Shield stacking takes up 3 skill slots" is not a very convincing argument, especially when we consider sorcs are the only class to get a utility skill bar. If you really believe other classes get by with only 2 or even 1 skill for survival, that says a lot about where your perspective.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

No magicka regen while a shield casted by magicka is active. Give them block treatment and they wont be OP.

Yeah, you can do that to Ward at the same time you do it to Cloak.

Why is every sorc response 'do it to cloak or nb's this, nb's that' We are talking about sorc just the fact that nb's are a thing is not a valid defence/arguement.

It is when they're 90% of the whiners in this thread. They have an easy two button kill, and sorcs are the only class not immediately falling to their ganking feet.

Therefore. Must nerf.

Our response it to Laugh at said magicka NB, because of their ridiculous cheese. It's harder for YOU to kill us, nobody else seems to be having any issues.

Everyone else has issues, thats the problem, it's stupidly hard for a magicka build to kill a half good sorc, it makes bad players be able to pvp decent because it's so strong.

It's why those sorc vs sorc duels last forever.

i disagree. this was true last patch, i don't know what changed but it's a hell of a lot easier to tear through shields. have no points in shattering blows btw. it's just easier.

Just get rid off actual damage & shield strength scaling with magicka / stamina.

Once you remove that balancing will become far more feasible. tons of other / different play styles / set combination would become viable.

GET RID of this max magicka buffing equals best in game damage, heal, and shields all in one go
(and yes the same for stamina though it is far less of a problem with hardly any ability buffing that as most increase recovery there, not that that helps any with all the no recovery while doing ... anything)

If you really were serious about reducing lag / work load on those servers you would make all these buffs active only for slotting not activating (with re-balancing of values, naturally) and stop these checks for in / out of combat as you have proven that getting that right is out of your skill level, by a few parsecs.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm all these post about how damage shields aren't OP and every one just needs to "L2P".

*sips green tea*

Funny isn't it.

Just how healing yourself for 12k+, cloaking away whenever you feel like or being pretty much immune to ranged attacks aren't OP either, right?

Here we go the nerf rally and vigor post.

Nah, I don't want anything except shield stacking itself to be nerfed. Any individual shield is ok, same with the other defensive skills. The post I made was just to show them how ridiculous them wanting to just make a blanket nerf across the board for shields is.

Minalan wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Sk000tch wrote: »

Damn man I don't remember making that 3am post... fortunately it mostly makes sense.

Fights already last forever because of endless reinforcement from forward camps. It used to mean something to flag a keep. I guess that's a whole different issue, but it contributes to the current gameplay issues.

The game is more interesting with diverse builds, tanky tanks, strong support abilities, an emphasis group coordination, and positional tactics beyond balling for pushes and spreading out when bombs are incoming. Shortly after TG dropped we tried a bunch of cool *** like kiting zergs into choke points, putting a Fasalla's guile stam DK up front, throwing caltrops, springs, nova on him, shielded sorcs streaking through with VD and timed proxies. Cool ideas and fun to try, but given the current issues with mobility and mitigation, its more trouble than its worth. Its just more effective to bomb, camp, repeat. I don't even change my skill bars between group and solo anymore, because its all just the same.

I'm not saying sorc shields aren't strong, they are. I don't think people appreciate that they are using 3 of their 8 non-ult skill slots just to stay alive though, whereas other classes get away with using 2, or even 1. It leaves very little room for build diversity, and is a big part of the reason most sorcs run nearly identical builds. I bet most sorcs would be fine with removing shield stacking in exchange for a combination of passives and changes to hardened ward or a decent self-heal that resulted in comparable survivability.

All I'm saying is the these threads are pushing the game the wrong way. Less damage mitigation makes the game less interesting.

The only thing this thread is trying to push is for Magicka Sorc to be brought into line with other classes, wether that be by nerfing their defensive capabilities or buffing that of others. All this other noise people are making about Nightblades and zergs and vicious death etc is completely irrelevant to the point of this thread. All I see is a bunch of sorcs trying to derail the conversation. I am claiming sorcs are unbalanced. Will you argue against that claim? If not stop making this thread about something its not.

"Shield stacking takes up 3 skill slots" is not a very convincing argument, especially when we consider sorcs are the only class to get a utility skill bar. If you really believe other classes get by with only 2 or even 1 skill for survival, that says a lot about where your perspective.

If you're going to gut shield stacking at least one decent class heal.

Hardened Ward alone isn't a workable class defense, compared to cloak, reflect, or Templar heals.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm all these post about how damage shields aren't OP and every one just needs to "L2P".

*sips green tea*

Funny isn't it.

Just how healing yourself for 12k+, cloaking away whenever you feel like or being pretty much immune to ranged attacks aren't OP either, right?

Here we go the nerf rally and vigor post.

Nah, I don't want anything except shield stacking itself to be nerfed. Any individual shield is ok, same with the other defensive skills. The post I made was just to show them how ridiculous them wanting to just make a blanket nerf across the board for shields is.

The individual skill 'hardened Ward' isn't okay on its own. When the nerf goes through, and we keep the Cyrodiil reduced shield cap in, the skill doesn't stack up to DK reflect, Templar heals, or God-forbid NB cloak.

One wrecking blow eats into your health. It's like it's not even there. Yeah I'm sure we can stack survivability tools like every other class, but our class specific mitigation skills on TOP of that aren't nearly enough.

Maybe stacking is too much, but without stacking it's not enough.

Way to exaggerate things there.

Hardened isn't comparable to wings/cloak/templar heal? Seriously, you get a 12k shield that can't be crit and is relatively cheap to cast, how are you even comparing that to a skill that only reflects projectiles for 4s? Could you be more bias.

One wb does not eat into your hp, not unless your some random with 0 points into bastion and 20k magicka, lets be honest it's pretty easy to get at least 12k shield, it's also a lot easier to get a lot higher.

You know you don't stack against stamina builds right? You only have hardened ward and yet sorc still do well against them because they can go full offensive while keeping very high defence. Something other classes can no do.

Serjustwhy wrote: »

Sk000tch wrote: »

Ugh, more nerfs. NBs, Templars, radiant destruction, dodge roll, shields, now another shield thread.

Sorcs are fine. Without shields they are as squishy as magblade with no cloak. They have one class shield - hardened ward, and its already been repeatedly nerfed. For a max CP Sorc in legendary gear it provides about 10k in mitigation. Literally everyone runs harness now, which lasts longer, provides more magicka return, and is arguable more effective. Healing ward is basically just a heal, the shield only last 6-seconds. Sorcs, like DK, run it because they lack decent class specific heals (unless you give up 2 slots for twilight). And streak is so buggy its barely worth a slot right now.

PvP is garbage right now, and the reason is that damage is too high across the board (Viscous Death, CP, Proxy) while mobility and damage mitigation has been nerved to oblivion. We should not be asking for more mitigation nerfs.

Sorcs are not hard to kill. Stop trying to burst through shields, force them to CC break, knock em down then go to work.

I agree with your 3 statemnets. However the last one. Yes and no. About Sorcs are easy to kill. Yesterday in Scourge. PS4 EU. There was 1 really good Sorc 1 in Daggerfall.

I won't mention the name. But very good for an opponent. It took 8 of us AD to try and destroy this Sorc. So Hard to destroy. But it was fun to. Trying really hard. This Sorc kept on coming back. We all were having fun.

This reminds me of another red Sorc. Who used to play in Scourge. Same problem. But fun. But Sorcs are really hard to kill. With those. Whom not have the right setup or damage. But then again. They are easy to destroy with the right setup and so forth. Therefore I agree with you.

So basically it's like with just about every other class then, not OP, just need to have a good setup to fight it with.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hmm all these post about how damage shields aren't OP and every one just needs to "L2P".

*sips green tea*

Funny isn't it.

Just how healing yourself for 12k+, cloaking away whenever you feel like or being pretty much immune to ranged attacks aren't OP either, right?

Here we go the nerf rally and vigor post.

Nah, I don't want anything except shield stacking itself to be nerfed. Any individual shield is ok, same with the other defensive skills. The post I made was just to show them how ridiculous them wanting to just make a blanket nerf across the board for shields is.

Point taken and no offense just at this point when ever some one mention damage shield balancing the shield spammers retaliate with nerf vigor and rally post saying nerf shields nerf rally+vigor.

No offence taken.
Yeah, I do believe that shield stacking needs to go, but then maybe lower the debuff for shields while in cyrodiil to make more shields viable among class skills. Sorcs should have a stronger class shield as they don't have much else in terms of pure defences, but the other classes should have a decent one too.

The_Great_Maldini wrote: »
Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.

No need to change the existing mechanics. ALL CLASSES are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.

Fixed that for you.

So many juicy threads about shield stacking... Guess sorc is up on the table next for the nerf hammer. Nurf nurf baby~

coolermh wrote: »

Its funny how misinformed people are about balance in this game... Its always... this is to powerful because "I the best pvp player in the world can't beat it." Therefore it must be overpowered... and ZOS needs to nerf it. It's not just scorc shields but everything it seems like. Stop whining and get good. There is no class build in this game that doesn't have some counter to beat it.

Finally someone who gets it

As I said earlier, Sorc is not what it used to be due to heavy nerfs aimed at the class over the last year.

Shields as they are now, are balanced for the following reasons:

1. Sorc is the only class without a direct damage instant cast skill for damage. Templars have Jabs, DK have Whip, Nightblades have Veiled Strike, Sorcs have nothing. Stamina Sorcs are solely reliant on Wrecking Blow for DPS. Magic Sorc is solely reliant on Force Pulse to proc Frags and Overload.

2. Sorcs are the only class without a high dps skill that heals and does damage. Nightblades have Sap whatever, DK have Deep Breath, Templars have Sweeps, Sorcs have nothing. Surge gives 40% of damage death from a crit as a heal with a 0.25 sec cool down. A Sorc has to have a 70% crit rate for it to even remotely be a decent heal. In pvp, everyone stacks Impentrable and Resistant champ points render the Sorcs heal useless, and Blood Magic is a joke of a heal that's not even worth mentioning.

It's for these reasons Sorcs were given a larger damage shield because they lack the healing while dps skills other classes have.

Looking at the big picture when looked at from PVE and PVP as a whole it makes sense, no other class can have its heals negated by an armor trait and now CP.

I'd be all about changing shields, soon as Sorcs get a comparable skill that heals and does DPS like the other classes that isn't based on RNG, and we get a direct damage instant cast class skill for DPS like everyone else has. Until then Sorcs are reliant on large shields and Overload because it's all they really have and even then it's mediocre

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As I said earlier, Sorc is not what it used to be due to heavy nerfs aimed at the class over the last year.

Shields as they are now, are balanced for the following reasons:

1. Sorc is the only class without a direct damage instant cast skill for damage. Templars have Jabs, DK have Whip, Nightblades have Veiled Strike, Sorcs have nothing. Stamina Sorcs are solely reliant on Wrecking Blow for DPS. Magic Sorc is solely reliant on Force Pulse to proc Frags and Overload.

2. Sorcs are the only class without a high dps skill that heals and does damage. Nightblades have Sap whatever, DK have Deep Breath, Templars have Sweeps, Sorcs have nothing. Surge gives 40% of damage death from a crit as a heal with a 0.25 sec cool down. A Sorc has to have a 70% crit rate for it to even remotely be a decent heal. In pvp, everyone stacks Impentrable and Resistant champ points render the Sorcs heal useless, and Blood Magic is a joke of a heal that's not even worth mentioning.

It's for these reasons Sorcs were given a larger damage shield because they lack the healing while dps skills other classes have.

Looking at the big picture when looked at from PVE and PVP as a whole it makes sense, no other class can have its heals negated by an armor trait and now CP.

I'd be all about changing shields, soon as Sorcs get a comparable skill that heals and does DPS like the other classes that isn't based on RNG, and we get a direct damage instant cast class skill for DPS like everyone else has. Until then Sorcs are reliant on large shields and Overload because it's all they really have and even then it's mediocre

Finally, a decent argument as opposed to some biased sorc screaming l2p.

1. This is the only solid argument in defense of shields. I've always held that the one thing that balances sorc is the fact that they are the only class that can be shut down completely. Which is because all their attacks are ranged and timed. I agree, sorcs need a good shield and nowhere did I suggest making it so sorcs don't have the best shields in the game. I completely understand why sorcs need shields. Regardless, the current situation is still over the top when it comes to mitigating magicka damage. As I've said before and I'll say again, it's far easier to apply 16k in shields with 2 button presses than it is to apply 16k of non crit damage on shields. Sorc vs any other magicka class, the non sorc has an uphill battle and has to work much harder for a win. That's imbalance. I say this having experienced that fight many times from both perspectives.

2.) Inhale is the only one of these skills that delivers relevant heals in PvP, because it heals per target hit and not damage done. Everything else only works as reliable healing in PvE, just like surge which you can get comparable heals off of while comfortably sitting inside a 25k hardened ward. Makes vMA a joke compared to other classes, but this thread isn't about PvE. Most magicka builds rely on healing ward + a class skill or two to survive, no different from sorcs. It's just, sorc makes better use of healing ward than any other class. This is because a shield stops all incoming damage no matter how much health you have left. Combine this with how strong hardened is, and it's obvious how well it synergizes with healing ward. Claiming or implying that sorcs lack the ability to heal is ludicrous. Sorcs can more safely heal up with shield stacking from low health than any other class..yea, even Templar. This is because sorc can more reliably protect healing ward, and because sorc defenses are proactive whereas every other classes primary defenses are reactive.

As long as healing ward and hardened ward stack, decent sorcs will be completely fine. And I'm totally cool with those two stacking. The main complaints are the crit immunity and the utterly broken magicka damage mitigation that shield stacking currently provides. Simply making it so harness and hardened do not stack, and adding some work around to shield crit immunity would bring sorcs into line. Like, say, a potion that allows you to crit shields while its active. Or will you argue it's justified that this one class should have far more crit immunity than any other?