"THE CODE"

Miszou · April 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

Not entirely true....

if ( 1 == 2 );
{
// Yep, this gets executed, even though the test is obviously false
}

wayfarerx · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

References to the "netcode" and it's alleged inefficiencies always make me cringe for numerous reasons, chief among which are the complete and utter disregard for the physical architecture of the internet when criticizing it, and the very good possibility that any "netcode" that exists is more than likely part of a 3rd party library anyway.

... and the fact that no one who writes "netcode" calls it "netcode."

SirAndy · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

References to the "netcode" and it's alleged inefficiencies always make me cringe for numerous reasons, chief among which are the complete and utter disregard for the physical architecture of the internet when criticizing it

Actually, no.

Having worked on ultra high performance and throughput network code myself for many years (including network code for online games) there is PLENTY one can say about how ESO is doing its Client/Server communication.

In fact, there were many of us who warned ZOS about some of the shortcomings during the 24/7 Psijiic Beta. I'm not sure if you were here during the PC launch bot disaster, but to some of us, that didn't come as a surprise.

SirAndy · April 2016

Recremen wrote: »

I'd argue that seeing the assembly-level instructions and piecing together meaningful insight into the software are very different things. Can you imagine trying to reverse-engineer the damage queues or whatever they're using from assembly, attaching the items there to ability names, and then trying to figure out where, if anywhere, they aren't calculating properly? Nooo thanks. I wouldn't even want to be on the development team, with access to the actual documented production code, never mind trying to do something like that.

- You're talking about debugging a specific bug

- I'm talking about learning how a program is structured and identifying shortcomings in its design

Those are two different things, one of which can be done with relative ease ...

rfennell_ESO · April 2016

scorpiodog wrote: »

I'm genuinely interested if the game code is available anywhere for review.

Not that I want to review it myself, but I see so many people referring to "the code" in their forum posts that I wonder if they have actually seen the code with comment and know how to make sense of it - or if they are just talking a bunch of BS.

I suppose people who make addons need to have some kind of access to "the code", but then again in most projects when people offer suggestions to improve "the code" they upload the code with comments so the other programmers actually know what they want, how to implement it, and a way for others to test if the idea will actually work.

So are people referring to "the code" actually talking from knowledge or just wildly speculating about something they've never seen?

Their netcode isn't robust, "the lord" spoke and it is.

Mostly, they just talk and try and convince high school age knownothings that they know something (and maybe stealing moms credit card for a sub would be wise).

Some of them do talk a good talk, but at the end it's just meaningless gibberish because they don't know anything about "the code" at all.

Xundiin · April 2016

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

As someone who has a basic knowledge of programing (had to take a couple programming courses for my IT degree) it can be pretty complex. For an example. To get one quest to work can take 100 lines of code, Each line does something different. One set could run the characters animation. Another the sound files, and another the pathing of the quest giver if it's designed to move around. A mistake in any one section can cause an error in any other if the pathing isn't set up right. And if you have certain commands to pull from a basic pool of commands, and in one of those commands has a mistake in it, then it can affect other things that you wouldn't think was tied to.

It's all in how they have the directory set up. Now I only know the basics so I don't even know if I'm getting the terminology correct since I do not write code for a living. But the best example I can use is a book, if you change a sentence on page 3 paragraph 4 and it wasn't structured properly, it can mess crap up on page 20, 30, and 66. It's why , in my opinion, it's so hard to find and track down misbehaving commands. You have to check to see what is causing the bug, trace it back to where that problem originates from then fix that line and possibly others.

Recremen · April 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I'd argue that seeing the assembly-level instructions and piecing together meaningful insight into the software are very different things. Can you imagine trying to reverse-engineer the damage queues or whatever they're using from assembly, attaching the items there to ability names, and then trying to figure out where, if anywhere, they aren't calculating properly? Nooo thanks. I wouldn't even want to be on the development team, with access to the actual documented production code, never mind trying to do something like that.

- You're talking about debugging a specific bug

- I'm talking about learning how a program is structured and identifying shortcomings in its design

Those are two different things, one of which can be done with relative ease ...

Regardless of how much architectural experience someone has, I'm not going to trust them to be able to piece together an adequate critique of the program's structure based entirely on the client-side goings-on of a single instance of the game. Unless they made some really silly errors, you'd lack the test data needed to criticize the design decisions. Why would I believe that some random internet stranger knows better than the people elbow-deep in the system? You'd have to justify any change recommendations based on typical, worst-theoretical-case, and worst-observed-case data and system metrics, and nobody except those on the team have that kind of access.

Debugging a specific issue would actually be more relevant to the end user, since changing the entire system architecture, even if you were able to prove your solution was better, is a total crapshoot. Figuring out how to keep Force Shock from counting as 3 different projectiles when calculating reflects, on the other hand, would be a worthwhile thing to investigate.

SirAndy · April 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Why would I believe that some random internet stranger knows better than the people elbow-deep in the system?

Are we playing the same game?

Because to me it's obvious that the people who are "elbow-deep in the system" at ZOS are way out of their depth and have been since the very beginning.

I'm coming up on my 3 year mark playing this game and i was part of the closed 24/7 Psijic Order test group. This game is just as buggy as it was 3 years ago. Every update introduces more bugs, even some that were previously fixed are re-introduced.
Heck, even the anniversary cake is bugged!

I personally submitted hundreds of bug reports during my time in the closed beta. I've talked to some of the developers. I made many, many suggestions. I even applied for a job at ZOS because i felt i could be of use.

I do this kind of stuff for a living and have for the last 35 years, including many years in the gaming industry.

I warned them about their Client/Server implementation months before launch with detailed descriptions on how to fix some of the problems. They ignored my advice and then spent months trying to patch the bots out of the game, in turn introducing (parts of) the lag we all have come to love so much.

Egonieser · April 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Why would I believe that some random internet stranger knows better than the people elbow-deep in the system?

Are we playing the same game?

Because to me it's obvious that the people who are "elbow-deep in the system" at ZOS are way out of their depth and have been since the very beginning.

I'm coming up on my 3 year mark playing this game and i was part of the closed 24/7 Psijic Order test group. This game is just as buggy as it was 3 years ago. Every update introduces more bugs, even some that were previously fixed are re-introduced.
Heck, even the anniversary cake is bugged!

I personally submitted hundreds of bug reports during my time in the closed beta. I've talked to some of the developers. I made many, many suggestions. I even applied for a job at ZOS because i felt i could be of use.

I do this kind of stuff for a living and have for the last 35 years, including many years in the gaming industry.

I warned them about their Client/Server implementation months before launch with detailed descriptions on how to fix some of the problems. They ignored my advice and then spent months trying to patch the bots out of the game, in turn introducing (parts of) the lag we all have come to love so much.

Plus, gotta also mention that many lead professionals and some mid/low tier coders who worked on the game got booted or left the team after launch and all the way to console release. It is not some grand mystery or a coincidence that the game gradually got worse after those happenings.
People who knew the game best and actually built it from ground up have left, and the remainder of the crew probably have no idea or have to learn it all from scratch, which is why instead of it getting better - it's getting worse until the people who actually work there become experienced enough. It is most likely that the new coders have much less understanding and knowledge of the core than those who actually built it - and they keep introducing more and more issues as they work on new content without any knowledge how to fix the existing ones.

Yeah let the flame fall upon me, but it's obvious as black and white. Konkle left, Sage left, many underneath them also left, and the sad buggers that remained were way above their heads. You can argue that I may not know nothing, but you don't actually need to work for the company to understand that if someone leaves - someone else has to do it - and that someone has to be trained - until said someone is trained - he is inexperienced and will keep making mistakes - it takes time - during that time issues accumulate - and we have ESO in a state it is now.

Before I started working for the IT company where I am employed right now - I spent 5 mandatory months (semi-paid) as a apprentice to learn the basics of how it operates, then I was employed for a trial period to see if I was fit for the job and have the knowledge and ability to learn it completely, due to the fact the company was in charge to handle sensitive data and anyone working for it had to know exactly what they were doing before I actually could work there full-time. Many companies do this regardless of one's education or university degrees - one has to know the product and systems before he can work on them. Same probably applies to ZoS employees.
Maybe if ZoS kept all the people who worked on the game and built it - we might have a functional or at least less bugged game.

(Remember, it's just my view on things - not a fact.)

Recremen · April 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Why would I believe that some random internet stranger knows better than the people elbow-deep in the system?

Are we playing the same game?

Because to me it's obvious that the people who are "elbow-deep in the system" at ZOS are way out of their depth and have been since the very beginning.

I'm coming up on my 3 year mark playing this game and i was part of the closed 24/7 Psijic Order test group. This game is just as buggy as it was 3 years ago. Every update introduces more bugs, even some that were previously fixed are re-introduced.
Heck, even the anniversary cake is bugged!

I personally submitted hundreds of bug reports during my time in the closed beta. I've talked to some of the developers. I made many, many suggestions. I even applied for a job at ZOS because i felt i could be of use.

I do this kind of stuff for a living and have for the last 35 years, including many years in the gaming industry.

I warned them about their Client/Server implementation months before launch with detailed descriptions on how to fix some of the problems. They ignored my advice and then spent months trying to patch the bots out of the game, in turn introducing (parts of) the lag we all have come to love so much.

They're also working with a very unique and new server model that you probably wouldn't have a clue about, sooooo yeah I'm going to trust the people that released a working, if buggy, game and who have actually been on the development team instead of just a player, beta or not. If you have 35 years of experience then you should probably know not to be so headstrong.

Arthmoor · April 2016

As far as content, there's a pretty high chance that most of the folks involved in creating it are doing so using something similar in function to Skyrim's CK, only... better. Content creators who make quests, NPCs, landscape, etc. are not usually given access to the game's source code. They almost never have any reason to need it.

The people who DO are working on engine code and that's where things get much harder to really know and understand. If ZoS really has let most of those original engine guy go over time, those people will be VERY hard to replace as that kind of knowledge doesn't come easy. This is where all the C++ and other stuff comes in.

Good chance that a lot of people also work on network infrastructure who have no idea how any of the other stuff works, but they know networks.

^ All based on 6 years I spent working in a corporate IT department. We didn't make games, but the folks who wrote the code were never the same ones who created the content that ran on top of it, and the content creators never needed source code access.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · April 2016

Programming Languages like C#, JavaScript, Python, or any other language isn't hard to read for a professional programmer. I learned Java first which took some time cause it was my first programming language, then moved on to C# and it was very easy. The language may be different but the syntax is pretty much the same across both languages.

So even though the original author of the code may not be around. The next guy can still read it, and make modification very easily.

It's pretty common to comment in the script for what each method does, especially when dealing with a large library of complex codes. Even my own codes I do so for brevity when I have to spend several hours on them.

Arthmoor · April 2016

They may be able to read it, but the deeper understanding of it and how it works with other parts of the code comes later. In much the same way that modders can see what you did in your mods, but understanding how it all works together would take much longer.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · April 2016

It is pretty easy to follow. Code is not some archaic encryption that you need a Rosetta stone to figure out. Computers are stupid as a rock, so code has to be very precise is what your requesting the program to do. That makes understanding it is the easy part, getting the computer (program) to cooperate with what your trying to tell it do is the hard part. Lots of Problem Solving and lots of Frustration.

That is why bugs take awhile to fix. Not because programmers can't understand the code but because finding a way to get around a bug can take some creative thinking.

Volkodav · April 2016

runagate wrote: »

Given the fact that the game is a program written in a programming language it is ipso facto a problem with code when one encounters a bug.

"Ipso Facto"
I love that term. XD

WalkingLegacy · April 2016

Just buy the hero engine and there you go. You have the source code.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · April 2016

I thought they only did the prototype on Hero. They built their own engine...

Xeven · April 2016

Not entirely true....

if ( 1 == 2 );
{
// Yep, this gets executed, even though the test is obviously false
}

Lol first of all there is no semicolon outside of the brackets of a c#/c++ if statement. That wouldn't even compile. Furthermore, if there were actual code inside the brackets, it NEVER gets executed BECAUSE the statement is always false.

This is like first day first year programming stuff dude and you just failed miserably... I dont know what youre trying to prove other than you have no freekin idea what you're talking about.

Recremen · April 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Not entirely true....

if ( 1 == 2 );
{
// Yep, this gets executed, even though the test is obviously false
}

Lol first of all there is no semicolon outside of the brackets of a c#/c++ if statement. That wouldn't even compile. Furthermore, if there were actual code inside the brackets, it NEVER gets executed BECAUSE the statement is always false.

This is like first day first year programming stuff dude and you just failed miserably... I dont know what youre trying to prove other than you have no freekin idea what you're talking about.

While I can only test in Java right now (same syntax as far as I recall), I'm quite certain that this would both compile and run exactly as Miszou described. The reason should be obvious. The if statement does not use brackets properly so it instead uses the regular protocol of executing the next statement, which is simply the end statment ;. The brackets would have grouped lines together as a single item for the purpose of the if statement, but since the semicolon came before the brackets they are simply floating out there grouping things for no reason. It should still compile and run, though. And indeed, everything in the brackets should execute because of the missed punctuation.

A little pedantic, sure, but it's a real possibility.

Miszou · April 2016

Xeven wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

In certain languages you can do some pretty wild stuff with punctuation, just sayin'.

ESO is written mostly in C++

Miszou wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

Not entirely true....

if ( 1 == 2 );
{
// Yep, this gets executed, even though the test is obviously false
}

Lol first of all there is no semicolon outside of the brackets of a c#/c++ if statement. That wouldn't even compile. Furthermore, if there were actual code inside the brackets, it NEVER gets executed BECAUSE the statement is always false.

This is like first day first year programming stuff dude and you just failed miserably... I dont know what youre trying to prove other than you have no freekin idea what you're talking about.

Uh oh. You might want to check yourself. Here's a Windows C# console "app" that you might find interesting. You can compile and run it in Visual Studio Express, which is free. So no excuses.

using System;
namespace Xeven
{
  class Program
  {
    static void Main(string[] args)
    {
      if (1 == 2) ;
      {
        Console.WriteLine("Oops. Looks like Xeven is wrong.");
      }
    }
  }
}

I could give you a C or C++ version too if you like, but I really can't be bothered.

Xeven · April 2016

Pedantic, but I wouldnt put it past ZOS. Im not certain that would compile at all. If anything your IDE would catch it.

Miszou · April 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Pedantic, but I wouldnt put it past ZOS. Im not certain that would compile at all. If anything your IDE would catch it.

It issues a warning, but compiles and runs just fine.

Warning CS0642 Possible mistaken empty statement Xeven d:\OneDrive\documents\visual studio 2015\Projects\Xeven\Xeven\Program.cs 9 Active

Xeven · April 2016

Alright, if you want deliberately try to compile incorrect syntax, while ignoring IDE and compile time warnings, it's possible. Ya got me.

Asmael · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »
Xeven wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

In certain languages you can do some pretty wild stuff with punctuation, just sayin'.

ESO is written mostly in C++

Miszou wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

Not entirely true....

if ( 1 == 2 );
{
// Yep, this gets executed, even though the test is obviously false
}

Lol first of all there is no semicolon outside of the brackets of a c#/c++ if statement. That wouldn't even compile. Furthermore, if there were actual code inside the brackets, it NEVER gets executed BECAUSE the statement is always false.

This is like first day first year programming stuff dude and you just failed miserably... I dont know what youre trying to prove other than you have no freekin idea what you're talking about.

Uh oh. You might want to check yourself. Here's a Windows C# console "app" that you might find interesting. You can compile and run it in Visual Studio Express, which is free. So no excuses.
using System;
namespace Xeven
{
  class Program
  {
    static void Main(string[] args)
    {
      if (1 == 2) ;
      {
        Console.WriteLine("Oops. Looks like Xeven is wrong.");
      }
    }
  }
}
I could give you a C or C++ version too if you like, but I really can't be bothered.

Except that it pops a warning.

Not to mention that various code quality management tools exist, and would throw you a nice red cross with "Major" next to it. I don't know about you, but I'm not allowed to have even a single Major issue when delivering a software, which includes no empty "if" statements.

Minor issues include using tabulation instead of spaces, not following naming conventions, consistent indentation... For short: nothing that dealss with behavior. The lines you wrote are an application behavior issue.

Omg_Pwned · April 2016

Oh cmon they will never make the source public.

They would expose too much for bot creator and hackers.

LegacyDM · April 2016

Lag

Danikat · April 2016

runagate wrote: »

I can assure you that almost none of the people with [Z] next to their name code, have access to the code, or would know what to make of it if they did.

I've always been absolutely amazed that people seem to think that poor overworked Ms. Bruno has anything whatsoever with the design, implementation or creation of this game. Everyone with crazy, irrational rants that they demand answers to should always, always be putting @ZOS_KaiSchober in every post, as he makes all of the decisions.

Firstly it's like this in every company.

People who contact my husbands company expect the guys in the sales office to know which version of each microchip is inside their products, even though they only sell to people within the same industry who really should have some idea of how a company is set up and who knows what.

People who contact me at work expect me to know everything from appropriate stock levels for grazing an upland heath to the best type of statistical analysis to use when assessing the meta-population size of estuarine waders to the appropriate number of first aiders for a county fair, even though my job title is 'Volunteer Coordinator'.

Having said that however what people like Gina and Kai should be able to do is know enough about their company and their game to assess which comments, suggestions, complaints etc. are worth passing on (either individually or aggregated as a kind of 'a lot of people are talking about X' summary) and who to pass them on to. So in many cases it's far better to direct comments to them and let them pass them on to the right people than to tag someone who may have more direct involvement in development but may be working on something completely different at the moment and who (more importantly) may only visit the forum once every 2 weeks because checking it is not part of their job.

smacx250 · April 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

Actually, "punctuation errors" aren't all that uncommon, and can escape compilation. Take this simple "C" example:

if (a == b)
    c = d;
    e = f;
if (h == j)
    .
    .
    .

This is actually not a terribly uncommon type of mistake (though it can be less obvious when there are nested blocks and statements in a larger code structure - particularly ones that may span a single page). Many programmers don't like putting {} around the body of an if statement that has only a single statement. However, later on someone may need to add another statement to the "if" body, and "forget" to add in the "punctuation" of "{" and "}" to create a multi-statement body. The indentation of the "e = f" that makes it look like it may be in the "if" body means nothing to the compiler - it only serves to mislead reviewers (is it just an indent error, or is it a logic error?). The code compiles correctly, and without warnings, but almost certainly does not do what they intended.

JamilaRaj · April 2016

Judging from the state of the game, I presume The Code is something like Elder Scrolls and not even ZOS employees dare to gaze into The Code for too long, or else it could gaze into them and make them blind.

vamp_emily · April 2016

This code should fix the problem with ESO


private bool FinalRoutine()
{
    if (profile.username == "vamp.emily")
   {
         BuffStamRegen(5000);
         BuffUserShield(1000);
         BuffMagicRegen(5000);
         BuffWeaponDamage(10000);
         BuffHealth(1000000);
   }
}