"THE CODE"

scorpiodog

I'm genuinely interested if the game code is available anywhere for review.

Not that I want to review it myself, but I see so many people referring to "the code" in their forum posts that I wonder if they have actually seen the code with comment and know how to make sense of it - or if they are just talking a bunch of BS.

I suppose people who make addons need to have some kind of access to "the code", but then again in most projects when people offer suggestions to improve "the code" they upload the code with comments so the other programmers actually know what they want, how to implement it, and a way for others to test if the idea will actually work.

So are people referring to "the code" actually talking from knowledge or just wildly speculating about something they've never seen?

runagate

Given the fact that the game is a program written in a programming language it is ipso facto a problem with code when one encounters a bug.

Saltypretzels

Not sure if serious....

People who talk about "the code" are generally talking out of their butts.

wayfarerx

scorpiodog wrote: »

So are people referring to "the code" actually talking from knowledge or just wildly speculating about something they've never seen?

Unless there is a little [Z] next to their name then the bolded part above applies. There are things you can infer based on how the program runs, the patterns in its network traffic and the addon API, but the code for the game itself is proprietary and can only be viewed by ZOS employees.

Egonieser

In what regard?
Netcode? The way game itself is coded or add-on code?

Addons have nothing to do with the rest of it as they are built using API ZoS has specifically provided for them.

Regarding netcode - people assume based on comparisons to what they have built themselves (if they are programmers and system adminstrators) by analyzing how the game performs under certain scenarios (you don't actually need to see raw code to get to a conclusion because down at the base level, most MMOs and other online services are built a similar way and shows common behaviours)

Regarding game code itself, nobody knows unless they use compilers and tools ZoS uses to actually crack open the files and bypass encryptions and establish file relations, but again, people assume based on other games or programs of the same type that perform in the same or similar way.

In the end, nobody except ZoS and maybe some ingenious hackers and programmers can find out "EXACTLY" how it works, but by seeing patterns and game's behaviours under certain circumstances - common conclusions can be drawn with relative accuracy.
It's a game not rocket science or string theory. Having studied programming, system administration, database management and having hosted and coded my own private MMO and FPS servers, even I can see flaws and issues that were nearly identical to what I encountered in my own projects, so I can assume ZoS has similar server structure and thus draw my conclusions from there.

Xeven

Addon developers do not have access to the source code of eso. They have access to a LUA API which exposes certain events functions and variables.

You do not need access to the code to deduce that the code is poorly optimized, poorly implemented, or poorly thought out - just like you don't need to be a mechanic or even open the hood to realize that your car is running like s**t.

flguy147ub17_ESO

I am by no mean an expert in video game code, but i was a CIS major in college years ago which is computer programming, i switched majors with 4 classes left cause i hated it with a passion. I am sure gaming code is much different then what i use to do but games are just programs really. If i was writing a program and they were very basic in school, when the program wasnt working correctly there was something wrong with the code. So i had to go through and find the problem, it could be something as simple as change a colon to a semicolon but when it didnt work correctly then the problem was the code wasnt written correctly. Again, i have no knowledge of making video games but i have programmed a little bit in my life.

runagate

I can assure you that almost none of the people with [Z] next to their name code, have access to the code, or would know what to make of it if they did.

I've always been absolutely amazed that people seem to think that poor overworked Ms. Bruno has anything whatsoever with the design, implementation or creation of this game. Everyone with crazy, irrational rants that they demand answers to should always, always be putting @ZOS_KaiSchober in every post, as he makes all of the decisions.

Recremen

If someone is saying that there's a bug in the code because they are experiencing unexpected game issues (falling through the floor, armor clipping, can't weapon swap, etc.) then it's fine. If someone is getting very specific (lag in PvP is caused by too many costumes, removing AoE caps would reduce strain on the server) then they're entirely full of crap. Now, there is some middle ground, wherein experienced programmers can make educated guesses at the overall system architecture and such, but it's still guesswork and anyone with honest industry experience will not trot out a line as gospel truth.

Think of it like legos. If you say you've built something out of legos, nobody is going to know what pieces you used, where they went, or what the overall shape of the creation. If you say you built a castle, then those with castle-building experiences can guess that you have walls, towers, and drawbridges, but they wouldn't know exactly how they were built or even be 100% sure that you used those structures. It might be built into a mountain, for instance, or use a portcullis. So it's best to take any mention of "the code" with a heart-healthy serving of salt.

Xeven

runagate wrote: »

I can assure you that almost none of the people with [Z] next to their name code, have access to the code, or would know what to make of it if they did.

I've always been absolutely amazed that people seem to think that poor overworked Ms. Bruno has anything whatsoever with the design, implementation or creation of this game. Everyone with crazy, irrational rants that they demand answers to should always, always be putting @ZOS_KaiSchober in every post, as he makes all of the decisions.

Not sure if serious. Kai is the German Community Manager. He doesn't code or make any design decisions.

Xeven

I don't even see the code anymore. All is see is blonde, brunette, red head...

Khaos_Bane

What?

JD2013

mattymaats

Zo$ be like...

Nestor

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

Shunravi

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

I just want to see the loot tables and drop rates to confirm some of my suspicions.

Xeven

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

NewBlacksmurf

https://jobs.zenimax.com/locations/view/7

vamp_emily

Like I have said in the past, they should open source the code and put it on GitHub.



[Edited to remove naming and shaming]

SirAndy

There are plenty of ways to "know" the code without actually having access to the original "source code".

- One can capture network packets to get an idea of the type (and performance) of the network code used.
- One can infer the use (or lack thereof) of certain functions by simply looking for certain behavior in the game itself.
- One can deflate the local game repository files and look at the source of the LUA scripts used as well as other assets used by the game.
- One can deflate the local game repository files and look at the source of the shaders used.
- One can use an app to actively monitor the ESO client memory pages as the game is running, which gives you real time access to the uncompressed game (assembly) code. With the right toolset, that allows you to map the DLLs loaded and more importantly, the OS/DLL function calls made and to read the assembly code in all its glory (or lack thereof).

In short, any programmer with experience in low level (assembly) programming, using the right tools, can make many educated comments about the quality of the C/C++/C# source code without actually having to have access to it.

Of course, many of those things listed above are against the TOS you signed and can get you banned.
But that's for another discussion.

Shunravi

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

Ive been supprised... But i did say as simple as to illustrate the concept. Not that they are in any way the cause. Yea, yea, bad examples and all that.

wayfarerx

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

In certain languages you can do some pretty wild stuff with punctuation, just sayin'.

Shunravi

wayfarerx wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

I would love to look at the innards of this game. I have a fairly good idea about how game engines work, at least in theory. I have some experience in making mods for other TES games so I also have a good idea of how it all works together. What I want to know is how they can change one thing but create a issue somewhere else.

It would be nice to sit down with the editor they use for just a little while to poke around and see what's up.

It would be nice to see the gears turning. Keep in mind though, a bug in the code can be something as small as a punctuation error.

Ive heard if unrelated code interfering with each other based on the simplest seeming errors like this. Which incidentally can also be why they are so hard to track down and fix.

The code wont even compile into something executable if there is a semicolon missing. The bugs we experience are not punctuation errors.

In certain languages you can do some pretty wild stuff with punctuation, just sayin'.

Lovely logical arguments... Argued wrong...

Yolokin_Swagonborn

vamp_emily wrote: »

Like I have said in the past, they should open source the code and put it on GitHub.

this doesn't make any sense. DAE hate fengrush lolololololol.

vamp_emily

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Like I have said in the past, they should open source the code and put it on GitHub.

this doesn't make any sense. DAE hate fengrush lolololololol.

Nothing makes sense

lol, I thought it was funny I don't hate nobody just playing.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

vamp_emily wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

Like I have said in the past, they should open source the code and put it on GitHub.

this doesn't make any sense. DAE hate fengrush lolololololol.

Nothing makes sense

agreed

Oldmanlawlor

Well, it's available if you know what you're doing... But, Zenimax sure wouldn't be happy with you.z how else do you think people found out that the dark below was already on the original destiny disc?

People will data mine anything. Rumour has it, there is an entire extra state in ESOTU already on our computers that had collides me geometry, but lacks textures for now.

A fried of mine is a hardcore programmer. He makes and secures websites for companies that deal with monetary transfers for property purchase and rentals both foreign and domestic. He datamines stuff with a custom external disc reader he made himself, he shows me stuff that he is doing and I just sit beside him saying "Yes, this is dog.", it makes very little sense to me. I'm trained to make visuals for games, not code.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

@scorpiodog It's all speculative when referring to "THECODE". You could crack the client code with a 3rd party program but that is only half of "THECODE". Against terms of service too. Nobody can see the server code as that is on Zenimax's own private servers. They will never share that information.

When "THECODE" is brought up, it is to call out a particular function in the game.

Recremen

SirAndy wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to "know" the code without actually having access to the original "source code".

- One can capture network packets to get an idea of the type (and performance) of the network code used.
- One can infer the use (or lack thereof) of certain functions by simply looking for certain behavior in the game itself.
- One can deflate the local game repository files and look at the source of the LUA scripts used as well as other assets used by the game.
- One can deflate the local game repository files and look at the source of the shaders used.
- One can use an app to actively monitor the ESO client memory pages as the game is running, which gives you real time access to the uncompressed game (assembly) code. With the right toolset, that allows you to map the DLLs loaded and more importantly, the OS/DLL function calls made and to read the assembly code in all its glory (or lack thereof).

In short, any programmer with experience in low level (assembly) programming, using the right tools, can make many educated comments about the quality of the C/C++/C# source code without actually having to have access to it.

Of course, many of those things listed above are against the TOS you signed and can get you banned.
But that's for another discussion.

I'd argue that seeing the assembly-level instructions and piecing together meaningful insight into the software are very different things. Can you imagine trying to reverse-engineer the damage queues or whatever they're using from assembly, attaching the items there to ability names, and then trying to figure out where, if anywhere, they aren't calculating properly? Nooo thanks. I wouldn't even want to be on the development team, with access to the actual documented production code, never mind trying to do something like that.

Miszou

References to the "netcode" and it's alleged inefficiencies always make me cringe for numerous reasons, chief among which are the complete and utter disregard for the physical architecture of the internet when criticizing it, and the very good possibility that any "netcode" that exists is more than likely part of a 3rd party library anyway.