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Magicka Sorceror/Shield Stacking (therefore Magicka Sorc) is not balanced. Please nerf.
CyrusArya
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I am not one to call for nerfs often. In my entire time on the forums, I have made only one other similar post in regards to the single target damage on proxy det. I only make this post when I feel something is truly unbalanced and needs to be addressed, and that's how I feel about magicka sorc right now. And the reason I'm compelled to make this post at this time is because I strongly believe that outside Magicka Sorc, everything else in the game is fairly well balanced right now. I'd love to see them finally address this issue and be done with it. As always, balance concerns are mostly a matter of opinion. These are simply my opinions and anyone is welcome to argue against them. So to the point, here are the 4 major factors that make magicka sorc unbalanced:
Easy Optimization- For every other magicka class, you can either spec for high tankiness or high damage. Not both. Trade offs have to be considered and calculated decisions made. If you go max damage, you sacrifice tankiness. If you go max tankiness, you sacrifice damage. Ask any magicka DK, templar, or NB and its the same story- optimizing these builds is a matter of great theory crafting, tweaking, and balancing to find what configuration works for you personally. Magicka Sorceror is the only class where you get optimal tankiness and optimal damage with the same set up, just stack max magicka and spell damage and you get the best of both worlds. As a result, optimizing a magicka Sorc is easier, more simplistic, and more advantageous than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Easy Survivability- For every other class and playstyle, survivability means using a host of skills, techniques, and game mechanics to stay alive- many abilities, heals, shields, buffs, and actual game mechanics like blocking and dodging. Sorc survivability can literally be summed up in 3 skills: hardened ward, healing ward, harness magicka. And then if thats not enough, just streak away for long enough to reset the fight. Is it not obvious what the problem is here? To see anywhere close to the level of survivability a sorc has, any and every other class/spec has to work much harder and make much more input. Spamming shields provides wayy too much output for the input it requires. As such, damage mitigation on a sorc is much easier and more simplistic than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Perpetual Crit Immunity- Weapon/Spell Critical is a major dynamic in PvP that has offensive and defensive ramifications for every class and playstyle. Once again tho, Sorc is the one class that gets to play outside the rules and operate apart from every other class and playstyle. Can anyone justify how it is fair that one class have essentially immunity from a major game mechanic simply due to the nature of that class' defensive scheme?? How is that balanced? I'd love to run infused/divines on my stamina DK or magicka templar to pump their stats as high as possible. When I slap my PvE gear on these toons, I cant help but wonder how AWESOME it would be to have the luxury of PvPing with such high stats. But then I have to accept the reality that Impen gear offers these toons much more benefit in the grand scheme of things. Not on my sorc tho, there I get to rock infused and divines while still being just as tanky as w/o it. Once again the 'play outside the rules' class gets to have its cake and eat it too. Every other class has to heavily consider the effect of critical hits on their performance and build accordingly. Sorc does not. This is not balanced.
Unbalanced Champion System- Shattering Blows is not a nerf to sorcs, it is an overdue balancing measure that is completely irrelevant. Shattering blows should have been in the champ system from the get go considering bastion existed from the start. But here is the reality as long as CPs are capped and as long as most people have less than 1000 or so to spend. There is absolutely no incentive for non-sorcs to invest in shattering blows to counter one playstyle whereas there is all the incentive in the world for sorcs to invest in bastion to counter every single other playstyle. Not much else to say here, this is not balanced.
These are the four major complaints I have regarding balance with this class, and balance with this class is the only complaint I have with balance in general. Thats why I took the time to write this out today. Unlike many nerf posts which are driven by vandetta but lack perspective, understand that my most played character is a sorc and I am not making this thread out of hatred or bias but rather a genuine concern for balance. It will be up to ZOS to come up with a solution, and there are many possible solutions. My point is not to propose a solution or push for a specific change. My point in making this post is to remind ZOS that this class STILL is not balanced. Much of the community seems to have become complacent with Sorcs being OP, but I am not cool with that. And I'm sick of seeing 'solutions' like shield breaker that blatantly admit there is an issue, but completely fail to address that issue in any meaningful way. "We admit that shield stacking is broken, here is a set that only stamina users can use at the cost of compromising an ideal build. Good luck, have fun". Its pathetic.
No more band aid fixes, no more gimmicks. Can you guys please just address the root problems with shield stacking and how shields mechanically operate so we can bury this topic already?
@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Edited by CyrusArya on April 5, 2016 7:04PM Easy Optimization- For every other magicka class, you can either spec for high tankiness or high damage. Not both. Trade offs have to be considered and calculated decisions made. If you go max damage, you sacrifice tankiness. If you go max tankiness, you sacrifice damage. Ask any magicka DK, templar, or NB and its the same story- optimizing these builds is a matter of great theory crafting, tweaking, and balancing to find what configuration works for you personally. Magicka Sorceror is the only class where you get optimal tankiness and optimal damage with the same set up, just stack max magicka and spell damage and you get the best of both worlds. As a result, optimizing a magicka Sorc is easier, more simplistic, and more advantageous than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Easy Survivability- For every other class and playstyle, survivability means using a host of skills, techniques, and game mechanics to stay alive- many abilities, heals, shields, buffs, and actual game mechanics like blocking and dodging. Sorc survivability can literally be summed up in 3 skills: hardened ward, healing ward, harness magicka. And then if thats not enough, just streak away for long enough to reset the fight. Is it not obvious what the problem is here? To see anywhere close to the level of survivability a sorc has, any and every other class/spec has to work much harder and make much more input. Spamming shields provides wayy too much output for the input it requires. As such, damage mitigation on a sorc is much easier and more simplistic than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Perpetual Crit Immunity- Weapon/Spell Critical is a major dynamic in PvP that has offensive and defensive ramifications for every class and playstyle. Once again tho, Sorc is the one class that gets to play outside the rules and operate apart from every other class and playstyle. Can anyone justify how it is fair that one class have essentially immunity from a major game mechanic simply due to the nature of that class' defensive scheme?? How is that balanced? I'd love to run infused/divines on my stamina DK or magicka templar to pump their stats as high as possible. When I slap my PvE gear on these toons, I cant help but wonder how AWESOME it would be to have the luxury of PvPing with such high stats. But then I have to accept the reality that Impen gear offers these toons much more benefit in the grand scheme of things. Not on my sorc tho, there I get to rock infused and divines while still being just as tanky as w/o it. Once again the 'play outside the rules' class gets to have its cake and eat it too. Every other class has to heavily consider the effect of critical hits on their performance and build accordingly. Sorc does not. This is not balanced.
Unbalanced Champion System- Shattering Blows is not a nerf to sorcs, it is an overdue balancing measure that is completely irrelevant. Shattering blows should have been in the champ system from the get go considering bastion existed from the start. But here is the reality as long as CPs are capped and as long as most people have less than 1000 or so to spend. There is absolutely no incentive for non-sorcs to invest in shattering blows to counter one playstyle whereas there is all the incentive in the world for sorcs to invest in bastion to counter every single other playstyle. Not much else to say here, this is not balanced.
These are the four major complaints I have regarding balance with this class, and balance with this class is the only complaint I have with balance in general. Thats why I took the time to write this out today. Unlike many nerf posts which are driven by vandetta but lack perspective, understand that my most played character is a sorc and I am not making this thread out of hatred or bias but rather a genuine concern for balance. It will be up to ZOS to come up with a solution, and there are many possible solutions. My point is not to propose a solution or push for a specific change. My point in making this post is to remind ZOS that this class STILL is not balanced. Much of the community seems to have become complacent with Sorcs being OP, but I am not cool with that. And I'm sick of seeing 'solutions' like shield breaker that blatantly admit there is an issue, but completely fail to address that issue in any meaningful way. "We admit that shield stacking is broken, here is a set that only stamina users can use at the cost of compromising an ideal build. Good luck, have fun". Its pathetic.
No more band aid fixes, no more gimmicks. Can you guys please just address the root problems with shield stacking and how shields mechanically operate so we can bury this topic already?
@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
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Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.
No need to change the existing mechanics. Sorcs are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.15 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The_Great_Maldini wrote: »Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.
No need to change the existing mechanics. Sorcs are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.
Ya, except thats a non issue when when you can have shields up perpetually. That would be the issue here, its irrelevent how squishy they are w/o shields. This post wasn't motivated by players who cant properly reapply shields. It's motivated by the fact that any decent players will overperform on a sorc vs on any other class because it is not balanced.11 -
Sk000tch✭✭✭Ugh, more nerfs. NBs, Templars, radiant destruction, dodge roll, shields, now another shield thread.
Sorcs are fine. Without shields they are as squishy as magblade with no cloak. They have one class shield - hardened ward, and its already been repeatedly nerfed. For a max CP Sorc in legendary gear it provides about 10k in mitigation. Literally everyone runs harness now, which lasts longer, provides more magicka return, and is arguable more effective. Healing ward is basically just a heal, the shield only last 6-seconds. Sorcs, like DK, run it because they lack decent class specific heals (unless you give up 2 slots for twilight). And streak is so buggy its barely worth a slot right now.
PvP is garbage right now, and the reason is that damage is too high across the board (Viscous Death, CP, Proxy) while mobility and damage mitigation has been nerved to oblivion. We should not be asking for more mitigation nerfs.
Sorcs are not hard to kill. Stop trying to burst through shields, force them to CC break, knock em down then go to work.11 -
mubzander✭✭New week, new problem for people to complain about till they find something else to fixate on.1 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shield stacking isn't balanced, but the very fact that the shield-breaker set and shattering blows exist makes me suspect they won't do anything more about it. If they prevented shield stacking then wouldn't 25% more damage against one shield be a bit op? They're not gonna reverse the changes they made to the champion system or delete a set everyone bought. So unfortunately shield-stacking will probably be here to stay, unless zos suddenly get brave and listen to sense.PC | EU2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Whine whine whine
Blah blah blah
They nerfed cloak on to sorcs!
L2P for the love of god,8 -
catalyst10e✭✭✭✭
Easy Survivability- For every other class and playstyle, survivability means using a host of skills, techniques, and game mechanics to stay alive- many abilities, heals, shields, buffs, and actual game mechanics like blocking and dodging. Sorc survivability can literally be summed up in 3 skills: hardened ward, healing ward, harness magicka. And then if thats not enough, just streak away for long enough to reset the fight. Is it not obvious what the problem is here? To see anywhere close to the level of survivability a sorc has, any and every other class/spec has to work much harder and make much more input. Spamming shields provides wayy too much output for the input it requires. As such, damage mitigation on a sorc is much easier and more simplistic than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
I just want to point out a couple things here... You list: "abilities, heals, shields, buffs, and actual game mechanics like blocking and dodging." How is it Hardened ward, healing ward, and harness magicka not simply included in that list of yours under "shields"? Healing ward and Harness magicka both arent even class skills, so 2 of the 3 listed option that make sorcs so OP are open to anyone who wants to use them. This is also implying sorcs don't also use actual game mechanics. Any Sorc not taking advantage of other abilities, LoS, buffs, etc is dead in the water... which is true of any class. I could some up a magblade with 3 skills too... lotus, fear, cloak... it doesn't make them OP even tho there's people who have trouble with that specific set up.(which also resets the fight) If they were really good they'd Shadow Image back into a keep or tower, where you CAN'T get to them. Forcing a sorc to spam shields is the EASIEST way to beat them, as they're expending a lot of magicka to keep those shields up (cuz as we all know if they're down, they're dead in an instant) If and when you see them streak away it's because they need to regain resources, the same way a NB cloaks away to regain theirs. Chase them down, Javelin them, chain them back, teleport strike, streak, talons, restraining prison, volcanic rune, theres so many options to keep this from happening. It doesnt even jave to alter your build most builds already slot a skill or 2 that is useful in multiple situations but also can cripple a sorc. A hardened ward after all the shield nerfs is what? 10k? maybe close to 15? That's like a single hit from a wrecking blow... or a reflective scale on the sorcs own crystal, an empowered dark flare, 2 focus aims... the list goes on and on."Why settle for just stabbing your foes when you can roast them alive in a gout of arcane fire?"
[| DC Breton Sorcerer || NA PS4 || PSN: Catalyst10e |]
[| DC Dunmer Dragon Knight |]7 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Whine whine whine
Blah blah blah
They nerfed cloak on to sorcs!
L2P for the love of god,
+1
I used to think the combination or hardened ward + harness was unbalanced in such a way that it rendered magika builds worthless against sorcs, however with magika fotm, crazy burst from det + vicious death, every class needs MORE mitigation tools, not less
ITT: Somebody survived a bomb from a detonation build so nerf them
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Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Great_Maldini wrote: »Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.
No need to change the existing mechanics. Sorcs are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.
How about magicka builds who have the biggest issue with magicka sorcs who stack harness + hardened ward + healing ward?
Shieldbreaker and that CP is not a solution if the sorc you face has a normal functioning brain.EU | PC0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »The_Great_Maldini wrote: »Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.
No need to change the existing mechanics. Sorcs are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.
How about magicka builds who have the biggest issue with magicka sorcs who stack harness + hardened ward + healing ward?
Shieldbreaker and that CP is not a solution if the sorc you face has a normal functioning brain.
Mag blade has enough burst that harness isn't relevant, same with mag sorc and magplar. Only mag DK has issues with hardened + harness, since they lack the burst to prevent harness restoring too much magika back0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@catalyst10e The point is, those 3 skills together provide far more mitigation and benefit than any other 3 skills in the game. Like I said, the output shield stacking provides compared to the player input it requires too much. It makes survival on sorc easy mode compared to every other playstyle in the game. Obviously hardened ward makes all the difference when it comes to shield stacking, it doesn't matter that the other 2 are not class skills.
Also, your perspective is completely off when it comes to numbers. Absolutely no one is is hitting 10k non crits with shields up with any one non ultimate ability. It is far easier for a sorc to reapply 10k damage shields than it is to apply 10k damage on shields. Thats the imbalance. Simply making shields critable would fix everything.
@Lexxypwns So are you implying that somehow other classes do not have to deal with this same exact meta? Cus as long as were all playing the same game, your comment is completely irrelevant. If anything, it means sorcs are even more OP in this magicka meta because harness+hardened is overkill against magicka builds, and no other class can exploit that kind of mitigation. Shield stacking doesn't make magicka damage worthless vs sorcs per se, but it is by far the strongest magicka damage mitigation that exists in the game. If you think its justified, because the meta is so burst heavy, what does that say about every other class that cannot stack 16k+ shields from 2 button presses? Your arguement is bad. This is a discussion about balance among classes, and the points you raise are irrelevant to that, because all classes play the same game.
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GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SB and Shattering blows? As if he will only come across sorcs with shields. That is silly. There are other enemies as well.0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭Master_Kas wrote: »The_Great_Maldini wrote: »Shattering Blow CP points plus Shield Breaker set.
No need to change the existing mechanics. Sorcs are as sturdy as a wet paper bag without a shield.
How about magicka builds who have the biggest issue with magicka sorcs who stack harness + hardened ward + healing ward?
Shieldbreaker and that CP is not a solution if the sorc you face has a normal functioning brain.
Mag blade has enough burst that harness isn't relevant, same with mag sorc and magplar. Only mag DK has issues with hardened + harness, since they lack the burst to prevent harness restoring too much magika back
I will admit I haven't really played more than 10 hours of the new patch, but I haven't met a mageblade on TF EU that can burst through my 10.3k hardened ward and kill me without me recasting it or healing. Defensive rune is an awesome skill for this. In my experience a magicka templar now has more chance of bursting me down. The only time I considered slotting harness again recently was when going up against a RD spamming templar who I suspect was stacking elemental expert, thaumaturge and shattering blows, and possibly multiple mundus. This particular templar was destroying me using only RD and spamming hardened ward did nothing; the skill was removing my ward in one tick. This is the exception rather than the rule though as I haven't met anyone else who can do as much damage since, which is why I suspect it was a mundus exploit.
In 99% of cases harness with hardened is still too much for a magicka build to go up against. The only argument shield stackers have is that shield stacking allows them to 1vX, so then the discussion should lead onto "is 1vX something we should be doing?".PC | EU3 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@catalyst10e The point is, those 3 skills together provide far more mitigation and benefit than any other 3 skills in the game. Like I said, the output shield stacking provides compared to the player input it requires too much. It makes survival on sorc easy mode compared to every other playstyle in the game. Obviously hardened ward makes all the difference when it comes to shield stacking, it doesn't matter that the other 2 are not class skills.
Also, your perspective is completely off when it comes to numbers. Absolutely no one is is hitting 10k non crits with shields up with any one non ultimate ability. It is far easier for a sorc to reapply 10k damage shields than it is to apply 10k damage on shields. Thats the imbalance. Simply making shields critable would fix everything.
@Lexxypwns So are you implying that somehow other classes do not have to deal with this same exact meta? Cus as long as were all playing the same game, your comment is completely irrelevant. If anything, it means sorcs are even more OP in this magicka meta because harness+hardened is overkill against magicka builds, and no other class can exploit that kind of mitigation. Shield stacking doesn't make magicka damage worthless vs sorcs per se, but it is by far the strongest magicka damage mitigation that exists in the game. If you think its justified, because the meta is so burst heavy, what does that say about every other class that cannot stack 16k+ shields from 2 button presses? Your arguement is bad. This is a discussion about balance among classes, and the points you raise are irrelevant to that, because all classes play the same game.
Other classes have different mitigation tools. Absolutely no mitigation tools should be nerfed for any reason in the current burst meta, it will only exacerbate the problems we are currently facing. If you feel hardened ward is unbalanced, that's fine. The correct method however is to BUFF mitigation tools the other classes have, not to nerf the already inadequate defensive tools sorc has. My magblade can burst 16k of shields down in 2 GCD, even without being able to crit, other classes can do similar burst, but that's not the point. The sorc is designed to counter direct burst, the key to fighting/killing top tier sorcs is to combine pressure DPS with CC and time your burst very carefully.
My argument is flawless, thinking like yours, which is apparently typical at ZoS is the reason why we have been in a burst meta since 1.6, why mitigation tools are mostly worthless these days. If anything, sorc is actually in balance since it can put out decent pvp burst while effectively using mitigation tools. The real issue lies in the gutting of mitigation tools available to templar and dk and the stam regen while blocking nerf, effectively ruining tankiness. @Zheg can I get you in here to explain how MORE burst or LESS mitigation are both bad things all around, you're much more eloquent than I.
Edit: Also @FriedEggSandwich had you played more time in pvp since thieves guild dropped you'd know that 10.3k hardened ward isn't worth much these days. 1 det+conceal will hit you harder than that, non-crit, especially since we have stealth empower again, if you're a magika build its run harness or die these days, since there's no other effective mitigation tool to stop all this burst. If I could just block incoming damage for a second without turning my stam regen off for 2 seconds I probably wouldn't run harness, even on magika sorc, but as it is the damage it does to your stam pool is just too much to risk, especially since you absolutely have to retain stamina to CC break and block meteors
TLDR: nerfing any mitigation tool is a joke and the root of the current problem in pvp, if a mitigation tool seems to be performing well then other mitigation tools should be brought in line with it, to discourage even more burst and get back to tactical pvpEdited by Lexxypwns on April 5, 2016 10:48PM5 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I completely agree that sorcs shield stacking in this particular meta is by far the strongest method of mitigation and survival available. There are indeed issues with strictly nerfing shield stacking though.
@Lexxypwns I actually think an approach that lessons the reliance on shield stacking is ultimately better for sorcs because otherwise you will never be able to bring a stam sorc up to par (not that I'd trust wrobel to ever be able to pull this off though...). I've always been preferable to reducing the strength (hopefully done by changing them to hp based rather than lowering numbers) of sorc shields but giving them passives and/or active skills to augment the lost survivability from reduced shields (and have them actually be something useful and not tied to a stupid pet or anything). You're absolutely right in saying that you cannot just nerf the shields though, because then sorcs go from being able to survive in pvp to being easy kills. I've love to see all shields scale off of hp (putting in some caps for templars blazing shield and DK's igneous shield where appropriate), revert back to a 1.5x1x1 stat scaling for hp, and then beef up the sorc class with passives that provide mitigation. But that's just my own personal pipe dream, just like wanting to see Wrobel either have an epiphany or be replaced.
To the OP, one thing you're forgetting is that while non-sorc mitigation is paltry and uninspiring, most of the time we aren't using 3 skills to accomplish it. To shield stack like you're talking about, you're giving up more than half of a single bar to do so. While the ultimate result is a pretty strong sorc in this meta, it's an important point to remember that they give up valuable bar space to do so. I fully agree that fighting sorcs on a templar right now is dumb and we have to work far harder for a kill in that matchup than the sorc. Lexxy does have a point though in that pvp would probably be a far healthier and a far more fun experience if other classes had the proper tools with which to survive damage, and just because one has sufficient tools right now, it doesn't necessary mean it's better overall to nerf those tools in comparison to bringing other classes up in tankiness. Would you be as frustrated when fighting sorcs if your class-based mitigation tools were sufficient to grant you the freedom to pressure them in fights? Probably not.
As for mitigation in general, I rant non-stop about how Wrobel keeps driving us further and further into a dps meta that has more or less turned ESO pvp into an AoE FPS game. Providing proper and effective mitigation tools allows for the opportunity for skillful play, and easy access high burst damage just gives incentives to play your character like a suicide bomber and hope you net enough AP before you blow up to warrant the run back from the nearest forward camp. The other pitfall for a high burst meta is when you have a poorly performing game like ESO where lag and bugs significantly impact your reaction time (or what inputs the game receives even if you react in time), in many cases resulting in a frustrating premature death.
In summary, I agree sorc shield stacking is the strongest mitigation when compared to other classes, but am far preferable to seeing other classes mitigation go up rather than solve this only by bringing sorc's down. The dps meta is atrocious enough as it is, mitigation needs a renaissance
Edited by Zheg on April 5, 2016 11:25PM2 -
Sk000tch✭✭✭
Other classes have different mitigation tools. Absolutely no mitigation tools should be nerfed for any reason in the current burst meta, it will only exacerbate the problems we are currently facing. If you feel hardened ward is unbalanced, that's fine. The correct method however is to BUFF mitigation tools the other classes have, not to nerf the already inadequate defensive tools sorc has. My magblade can burst 16k of shields down in 2 GCD, even without being able to crit, other classes can do similar burst, but that's not the point. The sorc is designed to counter direct burst, the key to fighting/killing top tier sorcs is to combine pressure DPS with CC and time your burst very carefully.
My argument is flawless, thinking like yours, which is apparently typical at ZoS is the reason why we have been in a burst meta since 1.6, why mitigation tools are mostly worthless these days. If anything, sorc is actually in balance since it can put out decent pvp burst while effectively using mitigation tools. The real issue lies in the gutting of mitigation tools available to templar and dk and the stam regen while blocking nerf, effectively ruining tankiness. @Zheg can I get you in here to explain how MORE burst or LESS mitigation are both bad things all around, you're much more eloquent than I.
Edit: Also @FriedEggSandwich had you played more time in pvp since thieves guild dropped you'd know that 10.3k hardened ward isn't worth much these days. 1 det+conceal will hit you harder than that, non-crit, especially since we have stealth empower again, if you're a magika build its run harness or die these days, since there's no other effective mitigation tool to stop all this burst. If I could just block incoming damage for a second without turning my stam regen off for 2 seconds I probably wouldn't run harness, even on magika sorc, but as it is the damage it does to your stam pool is just too much to risk, especially since you absolutely have to retain stamina to CC break and block meteors
TLDR: nerfing any mitigation tool is a joke and the root of the current problem in pvp, if a mitigation tool seems to be performing well then other mitigation tools should be brought in line with it, to discourage even more burst and get back to tactical pvp
@Lexxypwns has it right.
The current balance of damage to mitigation is arguably the biggest problem in PvP now, the gutting of mobility being the other contender. The combined effect of these two changes has further strengthened raw numbers vs coordination and skill, drastically reducing the ability of small well organized groups to deal with zergs, particularly in open field or when taking objectives.
Why anyone would advocate for making this worse is beyond me.1 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember back when every nerf sorc thread was "omg bolt escape too OP, I don't know how to gap close."
Now it's "omg shields are too OP, I don't know how to CC."
Once shields are useless, then what will it be? "Omg frags are OP, I don't know how to dodge roll"?Edited by HoloYoitsu on April 6, 2016 12:22AM6 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Lexxypwns Yeah, like I said I've played about 10 hours of the latest patch. You're right that a 10.3k ward doesn't last long, but it's insta cast and spammable. Also I have 23k spell resistance and 20k physical resistance fully buffed, with 1500 crit resistance. When my ward gets broken most players can't damage my health pool enough to kill me before I recast my ward and heal up. With decent cost reduction and regen you can run rings around players with this setup, even groups of players if they're inexperienced. Try it out.PC | EU1 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
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That's the key, if they are inexperienced.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »@Lexxypwns Yeah, like I said I've played about 10 hours of the latest patch. You're right that a 10.3k ward doesn't last long, but it's insta cast and spammable. Also I have 23k spell resistance and 20k physical resistance fully buffed, with 1500 crit resistance. When my ward gets broken most players can't damage my health pool enough to kill me before I recast my ward and heal up. With decent cost reduction and regen you can run rings around players with this setup, even groups of players if they're inexperienced. Try it out.
Against players of equal skill you aren't going to run rings around them outnumbered on a sorc, unless your definition is run around LOS for 30 sec until you're back in your friendly Zerg.
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FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
That's the key, if they are inexperienced.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »@Lexxypwns Yeah, like I said I've played about 10 hours of the latest patch. You're right that a 10.3k ward doesn't last long, but it's insta cast and spammable. Also I have 23k spell resistance and 20k physical resistance fully buffed, with 1500 crit resistance. When my ward gets broken most players can't damage my health pool enough to kill me before I recast my ward and heal up. With decent cost reduction and regen you can run rings around players with this setup, even groups of players if they're inexperienced. Try it out.
Against players of equal skill you aren't going to run rings around them outnumbered on a sorc, unless your definition is run around LOS for 30 sec until you're back in your friendly Zerg.
You're not wrong. But why should sorcs be able to run rings around groups of equally skilled players and then wipe them? The logical response to being outnumbered by good players is to run, not turn around and eliminate them cos they can't touch your health pool. Sorcs entitlement to 1vX seems to be the issue here imo.
Edit: the way I see it 1vX should be against bad players. If you can 1vX players as good as you or better then we have imbalance. Who disagrees?Edited by FriedEggSandwich on April 6, 2016 12:54AMPC | EU2 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You realize that the continued call for nerfs on sorc's isn't a design problem with the class, right? Its a flaw in the whole game and those are what need to be fixed, unless people don't mind a continuous stream of 're balance'. Can a stamina build just stack weapon damage and get their sustain from cp, providing the build with insane damage and stamina based heals? Yes? Because that is how the game is set up. You don't build a leveled house on an skewed foundation, you need to fix the core problems first, and sorc's already have a spell that punishes continued use, throw more at them and people will still complain. Fix the main problems first.
Also, when mentioning which skills the class uses to stay alive, re-read that section and tell me why I mentioned this.0 -
NativeJoe✭✭✭✭✭I am not one to call for nerfs often. In my entire time on the forums, I have made only one other similar post in regards to the single target damage on proxy det. I only make this post when I feel something is truly unbalanced and needs to be addressed, and that's how I feel about magicka sorc right now. And the reason I'm compelled to make this post at this time is because I strongly believe that outside Magicka Sorc, everything else in the game is fairly well balanced right now. I'd love to see them finally address this issue and be done with it. As always, balance concerns are mostly a matter of opinion. These are simply my opinions and anyone is welcome to argue against them. So to the point, here are the 4 major factors that make magicka sorc unbalanced:
Easy Optimization- For every other magicka class, you can either spec for high tankiness or high damage. Not both. Trade offs have to be considered and calculated decisions made. If you go max damage, you sacrifice tankiness. If you go max tankiness, you sacrifice damage. Ask any magicka DK, templar, or NB and its the same story- optimizing these builds is a matter of great theory crafting, tweaking, and balancing to find what configuration works for you personally. Magicka Sorceror is the only class where you get optimal tankiness and optimal damage with the same set up, just stack max magicka and spell damage and you get the best of both worlds. As a result, optimizing a magicka Sorc is easier, more simplistic, and more advantageous than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Easy Survivability- For every other class and playstyle, survivability means using a host of skills, techniques, and game mechanics to stay alive- many abilities, heals, shields, buffs, and actual game mechanics like blocking and dodging. Sorc survivability can literally be summed up in 3 skills: hardened ward, healing ward, harness magicka. And then if thats not enough, just streak away for long enough to reset the fight. Is it not obvious what the problem is here? To see anywhere close to the level of survivability a sorc has, any and every other class/spec has to work much harder and make much more input. Spamming shields provides wayy too much output for the input it requires. As such, damage mitigation on a sorc is much easier and more simplistic than on any other class or playstyle. This is not balanced.
Perpetual Crit Immunity- Weapon/Spell Critical is a major dynamic in PvP that has offensive and defensive ramifications for every class and playstyle. Once again tho, Sorc is the one class that gets to play outside the rules and operate apart from every other class and playstyle. Can anyone justify how it is fair that one class have essentially immunity from a major game mechanic simply due to the nature of that class' defensive scheme?? How is that balanced? I'd love to run infused/divines on my stamina DK or magicka templar to pump their stats as high as possible. When I slap my PvE gear on these toons, I cant help but wonder how AWESOME it would be to have the luxury of PvPing with such high stats. But then I have to accept the reality that Impen gear offers these toons much more benefit in the grand scheme of things. Not on my sorc tho, there I get to rock infused and divines while still being just as tanky as w/o it. Once again the 'play outside the rules' class gets to have its cake and eat it too. Every other class has to heavily consider the effect of critical hits on their performance and build accordingly. Sorc does not. This is not balanced.
Unbalanced Champion System- Shattering Blows is not a nerf to sorcs, it is an overdue balancing measure that is completely irrelevant. Shattering blows should have been in the champ system from the get go considering bastion existed from the start. But here is the reality as long as CPs are capped and as long as most people have less than 1000 or so to spend. There is absolutely no incentive for non-sorcs to invest in shattering blows to counter one playstyle whereas there is all the incentive in the world for sorcs to invest in bastion to counter every single other playstyle. Not much else to say here, this is not balanced.
These are the four major complaints I have regarding balance with this class, and balance with this class is the only complaint I have with balance in general. Thats why I took the time to write this out today. Unlike many nerf posts which are driven by vandetta but lack perspective, understand that my most played character is a sorc and I am not making this thread out of hatred or bias but rather a genuine concern for balance. It will be up to ZOS to come up with a solution, and there are many possible solutions. My point is not to propose a solution or push for a specific change. My point in making this post is to remind ZOS that this class STILL is not balanced. Much of the community seems to have become complacent with Sorcs being OP, but I am not cool with that. And I'm sick of seeing 'solutions' like shield breaker that blatantly admit there is an issue, but completely fail to address that issue in any meaningful way. "We admit that shield stacking is broken, here is a set that only stamina users can use at the cost of compromising an ideal build. Good luck, have fun". Its pathetic.
No more band aid fixes, no more gimmicks. Can you guys please just address the root problems with shield stacking and how shields mechanically operate so we can bury this topic already?
@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
You don't know what your talking about.
Optimization:You can't stack to 57k magicka and have great shields and high damage. it is a trade, often time you end up under the optimum amount of magicka chasing that elusive spell power number. and that can kill you in any sustained fight. And every dk, templar, and nb I know goes all points into magicka just like me. because They have other methods of mitigating damage and healing themselves up.
Survivability: not Every sorc plays this way, and if s/he is playing this defensivly, I don't think they're going to kill you. I know it's fustratiing fighting someone that u can't nail down and kill whenever you want, but I feel similar when it comes down to NB stealth, templar perma blockers, DK Regen builds, and the tones of people spamming gap closers and bombard... it's a playstyle.
perpetual crit immunity: can you not use a shield? there are 10 other shields besides ward that can give you the very same benefit. hell there is even enchantments o.o
CP: And the fact thermaturge boosts your wrecking blow damage...and just about every other type of damage doesn't bother you? why because it's not to your benefit to have it balanced?
If you don't like the way your playing your sorc with 3 shields. try a pet build, try a winterborn and ice staff, try phoenix set and vicious death, TRY ANY NUMBER OF OTHER COMBOS.... before you take down the viability of the entire class and end sorc tanking, pet builds,etc
There are sets to counter shield stackers, there are enchantments, there are stun locks, and there are plenty of burst builds/dot builds that can take down a shield...even one as high as 75k in pvp.
Stop this ridiculousness. Sorcs shields have been repeatedly nerfed. and now a single ward can't even block a full wrecking blow. where as historically it's been 1 strong attack to 1 shield. Enough is enough, if your being killed by sorcs ruthlessly more than any other class, POST PROOF.
IF anything, On the 100% legit side, the strength of ward needs to be slightly increased so it can maintain the 1 strong attack to 1 shield ratio, and so other 1 shield builds are still viable.
Just because Your at the party and drink to much , puke, and have to go to the hospital...doesn't mean the substance has to be made illegal, and all your friends have to stop drinking. See what im saying? just because your a shield stacker and play defensively, and take everything to the extreme there... doesn't mean we need to nerf the class for everyone else that is just using 1 shield and is playing offensively.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248915/sorcs-need-a-shield-buff/p1 if you want to read deeper into the many points made in this thread.Edited by NativeJoe on April 6, 2016 1:19AM650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
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RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sorc's are not what they used to be...they are just viable now and thats it...if you even have 2 decent players hammering on you, all you cna do is cast sheilds and die...even Sypher has trouble and dies to 2 decent players on his Sorc...those that keep pressure on him results in him being dead in outnumbered PVP
A few patches ago, yeah Sorcs were in a good spot...now not so much. Magic Sorc is probably the best 1v1 class, but 1v1 don't happen often in Cyrodiil anymore, i'd be more then happy to revist it if we had arenas though as in that case i think Sorc would be a little too good their and NB would be too good too and have to be adjusted a bit.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
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RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
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Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Sorc's are not what they used to be...they are just viable now and thats it...if you even have 2 decent players hammering on you, all you cna do is cast sheilds and die...even Sypher has trouble and dies to 2 decent players on his Sorc...those that keep pressure on him results in him being dead in outnumbered PVP
A few patches ago, yeah Sorcs were in a good spot...now not so much. Magic Sorc is probably the best 1v1 class, but 1v1 don't happen often in Cyrodiil anymore, i'd be more then happy to revist it if we had arenas though as in that case i think Sorc would be a little too good their and NB would be too good too and have to be adjusted a bit.
Can't be the best 1v1 Class when your hardest hitting ability is hard countered by reflect and against stamina builds your vaunted "shield stack" is just hardened ward and the very expensive and only useful when low health healing ward.2 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@catalyst10e The point is, those 3 skills together provide far more mitigation and benefit than any other 3 skills in the game. Like I said, the output shield stacking provides compared to the player input it requires too much. It makes survival on sorc easy mode compared to every other playstyle in the game. Obviously hardened ward makes all the difference when it comes to shield stacking, it doesn't matter that the other 2 are not class skills.
Also, your perspective is completely off when it comes to numbers. Absolutely no one is is hitting 10k non crits with shields up with any one non ultimate ability. It is far easier for a sorc to reapply 10k damage shields than it is to apply 10k damage on shields. Thats the imbalance. Simply making shields critable would fix everything.
@Lexxypwns So are you implying that somehow other classes do not have to deal with this same exact meta? Cus as long as were all playing the same game, your comment is completely irrelevant. If anything, it means sorcs are even more OP in this magicka meta because harness+hardened is overkill against magicka builds, and no other class can exploit that kind of mitigation. Shield stacking doesn't make magicka damage worthless vs sorcs per se, but it is by far the strongest magicka damage mitigation that exists in the game. If you think its justified, because the meta is so burst heavy, what does that say about every other class that cannot stack 16k+ shields from 2 button presses? Your arguement is bad. This is a discussion about balance among classes, and the points you raise are irrelevant to that, because all classes play the same game.
Other classes have different mitigation tools. Absolutely no mitigation tools should be nerfed for any reason in the current burst meta, it will only exacerbate the problems we are currently facing. If you feel hardened ward is unbalanced, that's fine. The correct method however is to BUFF mitigation tools the other classes have, not to nerf the already inadequate defensive tools sorc has. My magblade can burst 16k of shields down in 2 GCD, even without being able to crit, other classes can do similar burst, but that's not the point. The sorc is designed to counter direct burst, the key to fighting/killing top tier sorcs is to combine pressure DPS with CC and time your burst very carefully.
My argument is flawless, thinking like yours, which is apparently typical at ZoS is the reason why we have been in a burst meta since 1.6, why mitigation tools are mostly worthless these days. If anything, sorc is actually in balance since it can put out decent pvp burst while effectively using mitigation tools. The real issue lies in the gutting of mitigation tools available to templar and dk and the stam regen while blocking nerf, effectively ruining tankiness. @Zheg can I get you in here to explain how MORE burst or LESS mitigation are both bad things all around, you're much more eloquent than I.
Edit: Also @FriedEggSandwich had you played more time in pvp since thieves guild dropped you'd know that 10.3k hardened ward isn't worth much these days. 1 det+conceal will hit you harder than that, non-crit, especially since we have stealth empower again, if you're a magika build its run harness or die these days, since there's no other effective mitigation tool to stop all this burst. If I could just block incoming damage for a second without turning my stam regen off for 2 seconds I probably wouldn't run harness, even on magika sorc, but as it is the damage it does to your stam pool is just too much to risk, especially since you absolutely have to retain stamina to CC break and block meteors
TLDR: nerfing any mitigation tool is a joke and the root of the current problem in pvp, if a mitigation tool seems to be performing well then other mitigation tools should be brought in line with it, to discourage even more burst and get back to tactical pvp
I know how to kill top tier sorcs, the point of this thread isn't that I'm having trouble with killing sorcs or that they are unkillable. My issue is, by nature of the imbalance I've described and the fact that sorcs defensive capabilities far over perform that of anyone else's, a top tier sorc will have an edge and easier time playing at that top tier level than an equally skilled player on any other class.
I know I say nerf in the title, but I don't necessarily want a direct nerf, more like a relative nerf. What I want to see is other classes defensive capabilities brought up to par so that every class has to work equally hard to get kills against each other. With the way sorcs are right now, this is not the case in most match ups. I hope that more clearly defines my position.
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Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@catalyst10e The point is, those 3 skills together provide far more mitigation and benefit than any other 3 skills in the game. Like I said, the output shield stacking provides compared to the player input it requires too much. It makes survival on sorc easy mode compared to every other playstyle in the game. Obviously hardened ward makes all the difference when it comes to shield stacking, it doesn't matter that the other 2 are not class skills.
Also, your perspective is completely off when it comes to numbers. Absolutely no one is is hitting 10k non crits with shields up with any one non ultimate ability. It is far easier for a sorc to reapply 10k damage shields than it is to apply 10k damage on shields. Thats the imbalance. Simply making shields critable would fix everything.
@Lexxypwns So are you implying that somehow other classes do not have to deal with this same exact meta? Cus as long as were all playing the same game, your comment is completely irrelevant. If anything, it means sorcs are even more OP in this magicka meta because harness+hardened is overkill against magicka builds, and no other class can exploit that kind of mitigation. Shield stacking doesn't make magicka damage worthless vs sorcs per se, but it is by far the strongest magicka damage mitigation that exists in the game. If you think its justified, because the meta is so burst heavy, what does that say about every other class that cannot stack 16k+ shields from 2 button presses? Your arguement is bad. This is a discussion about balance among classes, and the points you raise are irrelevant to that, because all classes play the same game.
Other classes have different mitigation tools. Absolutely no mitigation tools should be nerfed for any reason in the current burst meta, it will only exacerbate the problems we are currently facing. If you feel hardened ward is unbalanced, that's fine. The correct method however is to BUFF mitigation tools the other classes have, not to nerf the already inadequate defensive tools sorc has. My magblade can burst 16k of shields down in 2 GCD, even without being able to crit, other classes can do similar burst, but that's not the point. The sorc is designed to counter direct burst, the key to fighting/killing top tier sorcs is to combine pressure DPS with CC and time your burst very carefully.
My argument is flawless, thinking like yours, which is apparently typical at ZoS is the reason why we have been in a burst meta since 1.6, why mitigation tools are mostly worthless these days. If anything, sorc is actually in balance since it can put out decent pvp burst while effectively using mitigation tools. The real issue lies in the gutting of mitigation tools available to templar and dk and the stam regen while blocking nerf, effectively ruining tankiness. @Zheg can I get you in here to explain how MORE burst or LESS mitigation are both bad things all around, you're much more eloquent than I.
Edit: Also @FriedEggSandwich had you played more time in pvp since thieves guild dropped you'd know that 10.3k hardened ward isn't worth much these days. 1 det+conceal will hit you harder than that, non-crit, especially since we have stealth empower again, if you're a magika build its run harness or die these days, since there's no other effective mitigation tool to stop all this burst. If I could just block incoming damage for a second without turning my stam regen off for 2 seconds I probably wouldn't run harness, even on magika sorc, but as it is the damage it does to your stam pool is just too much to risk, especially since you absolutely have to retain stamina to CC break and block meteors
TLDR: nerfing any mitigation tool is a joke and the root of the current problem in pvp, if a mitigation tool seems to be performing well then other mitigation tools should be brought in line with it, to discourage even more burst and get back to tactical pvp
I know how to kill top tier sorcs, the point of this thread isn't that I'm having trouble with killing sorcs or that they are unkillable. My issue is, by nature of the imbalance I've described and the fact that sorcs defensive capabilities far over perform that of anyone else's, a top tier sorc will have an edge and easier time playing at that top tier level than an equally skilled player on any other class.
I know I say nerf in the title, but I don't necessarily want a direct nerf, more like a relative nerf. What I want to see is other classes defensive capabilities brought up to par so that every class has to work equally hard to get kills against each other. With the way sorcs are right now, this is not the case in most match ups. I hope that more clearly defines my position.
Sorc's defensive capabilities barely perform, if you think they're over performing you're nuts. The problem is no other class has mitigation tools that perform to anywhere near an acceptable level. If what you say you want in this post is what you actually want, then calling for a sorc nerf is not the correct way to go about it.
I'm glad we can agree, at least, that most mitigation tools are woefully inadequate and should be performing some greater function than they present do.Edited by Lexxypwns on April 6, 2016 1:58AM1 -
Shield breaker was a terrible idea to begin with. It was a lazy attempt at a fix that was given to stam builds which didnt need even it to deal with sorcerors. The problem is that stacking hardened ward with annulment is too powerful against other magicka builds. The fact that shields give crit immunity and benefit from damage reduction CPs is already bad design, the ability to have both harness magicka and hardened ward active at the same time for so long since 1.6 is just gross neglect for having any sort of balance in PVP.
The easiest fix would be to make the two spells exclusive to one another or remove magicka damage absorption from hardened ward. A real fix would be a retooling of the shield mechanic in general. Crit immunity is ridiculous and has no place in this game when there is a crit mitigation stat, and even so it should only be featured on healing ward since its reactive not preventative, and only when on top of the stack.1 -
Sk000tch✭✭✭I know how to kill top tier sorcs, the point of this thread isn't that I'm having trouble with killing sorcs or that they are unkillable. My issue is, by nature of the imbalance I've described and the fact that sorcs defensive capabilities far over perform that of anyone else's, a top tier sorc will have an edge and easier time playing at that top tier level than an equally skilled player on any other class.
I know I say nerf in the title, but I don't necessarily want a direct nerf, more like a relative nerf. What I want to see is other classes defensive capabilities brought up to par so that every class has to work equally hard to get kills against each other. With the way sorcs are right now, this is not the case in most match ups. I hope that more clearly defines my position.
As does everyone on the forums, yet your words indicate otherwise.
As @Lexxypwns, @zheg, myself and others have tried to explain, you're wrong. Unless you want Cyrodil to more zerg v. zerg aoe spam, you should be asking for additional mitigation tools not less.
I don't think it's possible to explain more clearly than others have already done. We should be advocating for additional mitigation tools for all classes not less. When you weaken the tools available to avoid damage, whether shields, resistances, heals, or mobility, and combine that with the existence of aoe caps, what determines who wins a given engagement depends increasing upon pure numbers. Since the number of people you can hit with any given ability is limited by caps, when you remove mitigation tools then the only variable remaining is the number of abilities cast - or the size of your zerg.
If that's the game you want, then keep asking for mitigation nerfs. You and whoever is left playing can run around In viscous death with 800 regen burst builds with timed proxies and meteor/dawnbreaker... Just don't stack on crown, else one magblade is going to bomb all 50 of you with that same lame combo.Edited by Sk000tch on April 6, 2016 2:57AM1
