Regen vs Cost reduction

Hauztein · April 2016

I was told that if i spam a skill during most of the combat, reduction will be preferable over regen... or, if i use some light/heavy attacks in between or play pvp, regen is preferable... is it true?

I mean for choose which CP go for 100 and which one go for 67.

lolo_01b16_ESO · April 2016

Generally spoken, if you already have high regen, put your cp into more regen, if you get most of your ressources from using skills (siphoning attacks, ele drain, spear shards, ...) go for cost reduction.

For a perfect ratio between cost reduction and regen you'll have to consider a lot of things, so you'll need a complex spreadsheet to calculate it.

Hauztein · April 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Generally spoken, if you already have high regen, put your cp into more regen, if you get most of your ressources from using skills (siphoning attacks, ele drain, spear shards, ...) go for cost reduction.

For a perfect ratio between cost reduction and regen you'll have to consider a lot of things, so you'll need a complex spreadsheet to calculate it.

very interesting... the contrary seemed obvious to me... (if i have low regen i need regen, if i have a lot of regen i need reduction...)
Are you sure about it?

lolo_01b16_ESO · April 2016

Hauztein wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Generally spoken, if you already have high regen, put your cp into more regen, if you get most of your ressources from using skills (siphoning attacks, ele drain, spear shards, ...) go for cost reduction.

For a perfect ratio between cost reduction and regen you'll have to consider a lot of things, so you'll need a complex spreadsheet to calculate it.

very interesting... the contrary seemed obvious to me... (if i have low regen i need regen, if i have a lot of regen i need reduction...)
Are you sure about it?

As I said it's just a rough estimation that helps to find a good solution if you don't want to calculate in detail.

If you don't think it's intuitive just look at the following example:
Case 1: You have 3k reg without cp.
This means 3k*1.25=3.75k with cp which allows you to cast a skill with 1875 base costs every second without loosing magicka.
If you put cp in cost reduction you can use skills that get their costs reduced to 1.5k without loosing magicka, so they need to have base costs of 1.5/0,84=1785.

Case 2: You have 1k reg and get another 1k every sec from a skill (e.g. siponing attacks)
With reg cp you have 1.25k reg meaning you can cast skills with base costs of 1625 forever.
With cost reduction cp, it's similar to case 1, you can use 1.5k every sec, so you can use skills that have base costs of 1785.

But if you don't like calculating it, I wouldn't worry too much. With 501 cp the differences are much smaller and you'll probably benefit more from spending your time on optimizing other things.

phillyboy7897 · April 2016

This is very ballpark but I am putting this number low because of that.

Unless you have over 2500 base regen it's best to get 100 magician.

If you use heavy attacks often and have high cp your sustain should be infinite either way

FriedEggSandwich · April 2016

I'm no mathmatician but I believe you want both. The more cost reduction you have the lower your regen can be, within reason. I have 1 cost reduction glyph and 50+ cp in magician for 11% more cost reduction and I'm very comfortable with 1600 magicka regen. I can streak 4-5 times in a row and stull turn around and fight. Weaving heavy attacks helps too. Just play around with them both until you can fight the way you like without running out of magicka. If you are running out of magicka increasing one or the other will help.

Edit: I don't run harness magicka so all my sustain comes from my cost reduction and regen with some heavy attacks thrown in.

Yojack · April 2016

Fairly easy to be honest. 92 points in reduction and 75 in regen to get faster node farming. I can't play without it now

Waffennacht · April 2016

100 points into reduction, is what? Around 15% (I know it doesn't go to 25%) while 100 gives 25% in regen.

Wouldn't the 10% difference make it up?

Atm each point I put into cost reduction is .1% while regen is .2/.3 per point. Isn't it more valuable per point to invest in regen?

Nestor · April 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

100 points into reduction, is what? Around 15% (I know it doesn't go to 25%) while 100 gives 25% in regen.

Its 16%, I just hit 90 last night and I am at 15% Reduction.

It probably comes down to playstyle, more that anything else. If you tend to spam skills more than you weave, you want Cost Reduction, if you weave Light/Medium Attacks in with your skills, or you move around some in between attacks like to avoid damage, then you want more regen as you give your character more time to regen.

All that being said, I seem to manage my resource pool of magic better with Cost Reduction rather than Regen. Although, when I was running 5 Piece Seducer/Torugs with Spell Cost Reduction Glyphs on my jewlery, I never ran out of magic. I mean never. And I weave attacks and run around like Benny Hill during some fights.

So, best advice, get two sets of jewelry that are all Arcane, and put a set of Spell Cost Reduction glyphs on one set, and regen boosters on the other set and swap between them and see which set give you more magic at the end of a battle.

Edziu · April 2016

for me when I has around 1k reg.
75 into reduce cost, its 13.5% from max 16%, for me its now pointless to get 25cp to max, not much bonus on this end
and minimum 73 points into reg, to minimum 20% bonus regen (max is 25%) and rest in some other perks like dodge/break free reduce etc

at cap cp btw ;P

Xvorg · April 2016

Edziu wrote: »

for me when I has around 1k reg.
75 into reduce cost, its 13.5% from max 16%, for me its now pointless to get 25cp to max, not much bonus on this end
and minimum 73 points into reg, to minimum 20% bonus regen (max is 25%) and rest in some other perks like dodge/break free reduce etc
at cap cp btw ;P

Do the cost reduction in CP works over the cost reduction provided by, for example 5 pieces LA or it works on the cost base?

Edziu · April 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

for me when I has around 1k reg.
75 into reduce cost, its 13.5% from max 16%, for me its now pointless to get 25cp to max, not much bonus on this end
and minimum 73 points into reg, to minimum 20% bonus regen (max is 25%) and rest in some other perks like dodge/break free reduce etc
at cap cp btw ;P

Do the cost reduction in CP works over the cost reduction provided by, for example 5 pieces LA or it works on the cost base?

hmm, just from my experience...for me this my combination is the best for me with low regen, because if I max to regen then I will dont get much difference with this low regen and skills still cost so much.
if I max to reduce cost skills are cheaper but not much like on this 13.5% when regen is not much but some lower
and when I have almost 50%-50% its perfectly for me, reduce cost is high, bonus regen also.
spending 100 point into single perk, reduction or regen is some pointless because to this additional 5% more reg spent 25 point...so much, same with reduce.
it work very good with 50%-50% in all situations, maxing is pointless with today cp cap, when you cant get 90points in both :P

f047ys3v3n · April 2016

Yojack wrote: »

Fairly easy to be honest. 92 points in reduction and 75 in regen to get faster node farming. I can't play without it now

This.

acw37162 · April 2016

Hauztein wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Generally spoken, if you already have high regen, put your cp into more regen, if you get most of your ressources from using skills (siphoning attacks, ele drain, spear shards, ...) go for cost reduction.

For a perfect ratio between cost reduction and regen you'll have to consider a lot of things, so you'll need a complex spreadsheet to calculate it.

very interesting... the contrary seemed obvious to me... (if i have low regen i need regen, if i have a lot of regen i need reduction...)
Are you sure about it?

20 % of 1900 regen > 20 % of 900 regen

The higher the regen number the better the value you get for each point out into regen.

If you are running a low regen build cost reduction is your friend.

There are loads of other questions;

Have you purchased the passive in alchemy to extend potion regen duration? Which potions do you run?
Do you use harness magica?
If your a Templar do you use channeled focus?
So you use elemental drain?
Do you enchant your jewlery with cost reduction, regen, or spell damage?

Just to name a few, a general rule of thumb for magica builds is max stats and cost reduction over regen but a high regen build could work very well.

Also do you run two piece kena?

GreenSoup2HoT · April 2016

I know some old guy who has a very very high education in Mathmatics (Masters Degree i believe) who plays eso and he said that if you put any more then 37 points into any cp tree you will loose more then you gain.

He called it "the law of diminishing returns" (this is with cp cap in mind, this will most likely change once cp cap is raised). I personally believed him when he talked about why. I wont really get into it since its pretty technical.

So i would take this into consideration when getting the most out of your cp.

Some cp tree's are better then others but when discussing cost reduction vs regen this may be a good idea.

ToRelax · April 2016

It's not that complicated, but the answer will be different depending on your build, playstyle and CP.
If magicka regen is responsible for most or all magicka returns, wether you use regen or cost reduction glyphs, then either will in practice provide you with a static amount of magicka per second over a certain time, as in no diminishing returns.
If you have full CP, then it will almost certainly be a good idea do put 100 CP into magicka regen, making regen glyphs a whole lot more competitive with cost reduction. Without CP, it's really a no brainer to use cost reduction.

Now, any skills or other effects that return magicka, or decrease regen by a percentage will make cost reduction more useful relatively, while those that increase regen by a percentage will help more with magicka regen glyphs. Things that increase magicka regen by a static amount, like the Lich Set for example, don't have to be considered here.

Then, percentaged cost reduction would play a role. But curse me, I don't remember how it interacted with flat cost reduction. : D

Further you need to have an idea of how long you will have to sustain while spamming skills as fast as possible in combat, and how much time you might have to regain resources inbetween such periods. This is also the one reason I can think of that makes a mix of the two gypes of glyphs a viable alternative, as it may be advantageous to sustain that little bit longer the one cost reduction glyph gives you, but 3 are overkill so you rather go for 2 regen glyphs that help you regain resources faster when you don't have to spam skills as much (obviously cost reduction is worthless at that point - the regen glyphs help more overall as they also work while you use skills, I should say).

Lastly, the speed at wich you use your skills matters as well, obviously.

But, mostly I just commented to say - no, there is not a certain ratio of static regen and cost reduction that is best. They are not multiplicative in any way. Take a rectangle for instance, we all know the area will be largest for a square for any given sum of the sides - however, for this discussion we are only interested in the sum of the sides in the first place.

Asayre · April 2016

@Hauztein, you had two very similar threads on this same topic and I answered in the other one. I guess I'll just quote myself from your other topic since still appears to be some confusion over whether Arcanist or Magician is preferred.

For most classes in PvE, you'll want to go 100 into Magician and 67 into Arcanist. This does not change much for different races. I've a spreadsheet to demonstrate this but it is not very straightforward and given the amount of confusion my spreadsheet on Mage CP has generated I'm not going to advertise about the Thief CP spreadsheet here. Also the 100 into Magician and 67 into Arcanist doesn't really change for most endgame PvE builds so there is not too much point in using it.

This time I'll make a more obvious link to the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yp90QzJnsL5PNqSgKqDGv9IpYzJajG_tnlslFNPOf9g/edit#gid=727214851

Please view the accompanying post with regards to the spreadsheet
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/page/22/#post-642870

Hauztein · April 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Hauztein, you had two very similar threads on this same topic and I answered in the other one. I guess I'll just quote myself from your other topic since still appears to be some confusion over whether Arcanist or Magician is preferred.

For most classes in PvE, you'll want to go 100 into Magician and 67 into Arcanist. This does not change much for different races. I've a spreadsheet to demonstrate this but it is not very straightforward and given the amount of confusion my spreadsheet on Mage CP has generated I'm not going to advertise about the Thief CP spreadsheet here. Also the 100 into Magician and 67 into Arcanist doesn't really change for most endgame PvE builds so there is not too much point in using it.

This time I'll make a more obvious link to the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yp90QzJnsL5PNqSgKqDGv9IpYzJajG_tnlslFNPOf9g/edit#gid=727214851

Please view the accompanying post with regards to the spreadsheet
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/page/22/#post-642870

Thanks for your answers... i posted this twice since the first time i didnt explain that i dont use staffs and i mostly spam skills, so i thought that this can change the answers. Many answers was from the regular mag nb with destro staff weaving perspective.