"yes we are..on pve ok...we have pots but only with haler can do dung without 2h, dual and bow,,,but on solo playing you are forced to use 2h for heal and for buff to not wasting pots nonstop on anything."

If you can't solo without potions or the heals from Rally, it's an L2P problem, not imbalance. Sorry.

So hey, let's not force anything if having differences that someone may find more appealing can be considering forcing.

Have one singular melee weapon skill tree
Have one singular ranged weapon tree.
Have weapon type be a totally inconsequential flavor decision.

While we are at it, have one singular armor tree since we wouldn't want to force tanks into heavy armor.

Have three class trees that everyone gets regardless of class. Eliminate morphs, don't want anyone forced to pick the one whose look they prefer.

I have seen the homogeneous police ruin other games... one bit by one bit the back and forth ends in "sterility" in the name of "equality"

When all choices are equal no choices matter.

Every line doesn't need a flat identical set of traits - a heal, an aoe, an execute, etc.

All IMO

Why should I even bother using my bow?

one word answer : Bombard

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It seems as if I'm hurting myself if I don't use 2H. Where else can I get Major Brutality, a heal over time followed by a larger heal at the end, empower, and a knockback all by using only 2 skills? (Rally + Wrecking Blow)

Now, from 26:37 to 27:17 in the latest ESO Live episode that aired on 3/25, we hear that 2H is getting a zerg-buster in Reverse Slice (Link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/56602018)

I'm glad that stamina builds are getting a zerg-buster option (about time), but why is it forced into the 2H tree? Proxy det doesn't force magicka builds to use a certain weapon. Now, if our best zerg-buster is going to be found in the 2H, what incentive do I have to use anything else? I really hope ZOS gives more zerg options to stamina builds than just a two-hander. Now we're looking at:

Rally + Wrecking Blow + Reverse Slice = 1) Major Brutality, 2) heal over time, 3) larger heal at end 4) empower, 5) knockback, 6) finisher, and 7) AOE zerg-buster.

Why should I even bother using my bow?

yep all the changes are always about PVP balance with this guy. The PVE game is destroyed and my greatest hope is the destroy it for you full time PVPrs too. there is a great game for you full time PVPrs its called BDO. Stam will never be fixed the game system, and core ideas are flawed

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Except for the brief time where hidden blade was pretty much loltastically OP, DW is steel tornado. You rarely see any of the other abilities used in pvp often and that's mostly because they just aren't as good as most of the 2h line.

DW needs an identity that isn't spam steel tornado.

** in pvp

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

I disagree that 2h overs more versatility. You.have tunnel vision I'm afraid.

Please describe, in detail, other weapon lines that offer more versatility than 2H. Perhaps your insight will allow me to see what I, apparently, do not.

Vangy wrote: »

Why should I even bother using my bow?

one word answer : Bombard

You know whats good.

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling said
There are many ways to be successful in this game. That said, it would still be nice to see other weapon skill lines have the kind of versatility that 2H does

Then 2 posts later also says
To be clear the argument is not that every other skill line should have what 2H has, it's that 2H has too much.

WELL...

All righty then.

I know I wont convince you no matter what snd doubt even you can convince you even when you are on opposite sides of what you want, but for me as a PVE player who runs currently one DW stsm and two 2h stam, I have notot experienced the deficiencies youvhave with DW that would "presdure me" into going all 2h. In fact, i have other DW mag chars too and mostly chose 2h as alternatives not bc i saw the need mechanically.

If anything, i prefer the DW for the ectra gear slot leading to an extracset bonus which is inbitselfbhighly efficient and customizable by character.

If SKILL WISE the dw and 2h were "equivalent" andbi chose for "efficiency" alone, i would have no, zero, nada 2h sets equipped. No sense in losing the set slot.

You're taking two different quotes, pulling them out of context, and trying to force them together.

The first quote says it would be nice to have versatility, and does not call for other weapon skill lines to be the same as 2H. Versatility could be achieved in a number of ways such as increased movement speed with a weapon equipped, further reduced costs with a weapon equipped, and access to additional passives with a weapon equipped, to name a few suggestions. All of these options would require additional work from ZOS, and although it sounds "nice," as I stated, and would increase weapon skill line versatility, the more practical option would be to nerf 2H. Which leads us to the second quote...

The second quote is in response to the hyperbolic suggestion that we might as well make all weapons have the same buffs. That's not my argument, and it never was. Please read carefully.

Also, on hyperbole...

You Might should have a chat with the OP who used the term "forcing" in his title to describe players electing to choose based on nartow efficiency only basis feeling the bedt choice atm is to run only 2h for stam wpns.

Thats pretty hyperbolic if you ask me.

Wouldnt you agree?

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Also, on hyperbole...

You Might should have a chat with the OP who used the term "forcing" in his title to describe players electing to choose based on nartow efficiency only basis feeling the bedt choice atm is to run only 2h for stam wpns.

Thats pretty hyperbolic if you ask me.

Wouldnt you agree?

He is the OP. And I never answered his question about giving him detailed instructions on using dw because he is not going to listen. There are so many resources that answer his question but he comes across as a non thinker. Just tell me how to play is all I see reading his posts.

I'm asking you to defend your argument that 2H isn't the most versatile weapon skill line, with evidence. If you share evidence that contains sound logic, then it stimulates productive discussion and leads to progression of everyone's ideas. Prove me wrong with evidence. I want to be proven wrong. If you prove me wrong then I can go back to the drawing board, reevaluate my own argument, and formulate a better argument that more precisely examines weapon balance.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

]

I'm asking you to defend your argument that 2H isn't the most versatile weapon skill line, with evidence. If you share evidence that contains sound logic, then it stimulates productive discussion and leads to progression of everyone's ideas. Prove me wrong with evidence. I want to be proven wrong. If you prove me wrong then I can go back to the drawing board, reevaluate my own argument, and formulate a better argument that more precisely examines weapon balance.

Not him but for the record...

BOW has range which as far as actual versstility provide a lot of options not open to 2h in terms of effective play., even if perhaps NOT FAS in terms of number of different categories of traits. How many 2h abilites can cause damage at 22m?

DW with the ectra slot for a weapon, i can add new set piece extras like say more stamina or stamina regen or weapon damage or practically anything and even with sideboard gespar change that up on the fly ooc with no skill changes needed. I can ha:e weaponsbof differing traits if i wsnt so its not limited to one bonus.

SB: like DW extra slot but you also have there the armor traits category to play with so hey, can add another divine boosting yet another easily changeable stat.

I, for one, dont see the individual skills within 2h, bow, dw etc ad being so much lopsided in favor of 2h that the internal versstilities trump the ones ĺisted above so seriously as to be forcing, unless one is viewing from a specific pkaystyle that makes one more successful than the other.

What i see is this: the overall "balance" between choices does not depend on any one aspect - damage vs versatility vs whatever. Al the different aspects can be setup to play off each other - creating not EQUALITY but more DYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM.

Maybe the overall utility and benefit from the 2h traits is more potent than bow within 10m but adding in bow's range makes for an equilibrium where bow guys try and fight outside 10m and 2h gutsvtry and fight within.

Maybe the overall usefulness of 2h traits makes it better for folks playing a lot of 2h skills slotted, relying heavy on their 2h actives, but maybe the DW guys taking advantage of extra slots gaining bonuses to other stamina traits in their class skills boosting them and slotting more of the boosted class skills to rely on.

Etc
Etc

At times it seems like "took dw, only slot spin out of its tree and rely on its bonus and extra dlot" is somehow sern as a perjorative or proof of failure in the dw line.

What is going to matter more is the overall fit between player style, gear, class, guild and weapon skills and how well the player puts it all together into one comprehensive package he uses well.

So, even if thev2h skilks a/p WERE more versatile than dw than bow than sb, that would not be sufficientbto warrant raising the other lines versatility to match.

IF they all had equal versatility of skill a/p, that REMOVES a tool for balancing them and the fewer "dials" one has thenmore likely you are to get less diversity and more sameness.

Did you notice in any of the 2h threads folks advocating also in addition to say maving rally making 2h weapons count as 2cslits for gear? More sameness?

Ymmv

I would just like to point out that this entire argument revolves almost exclusively around 2h in PvP. I have yet to see anyone make a suggestion or an argument that affords anything to balance. Who do you know that uses Cleave in pvp? In my experience, the only time cleave is useful is at a bottleneck, which is most likely in sewers, which virtually no dedicated PvPer does.

We can sit here and argue about Rally all day long, but really the only thing it affords that you can't duplicate exactly is the heal component, and most will agree that vigor is better for this anyway. Aversion to potions is a personal problem. If someone refuses to use potions for their buffs, despite being the most efficient and flexible method of obtaining said buffs, it is not evidence that 2H is the most versatile.

Executioner.... you can justify this in a number of ways, i.e. lack of executes in class lines, the fact that other executes don't scale properly or do the wrong damage type, or the fact that an execute isn't absolutely necessary in either PvP or PvE. The number of people I kill with an execute ability in pvp amounts to less than the number of people I kill without, of this I am certain. The current stam meta for PvE is DW/bow, which affords no execute and is still currently the highest stamina-based damage potential, and the best resource management.

Honestly, I find the stamina-based weapon skills to be very close to balanced as they are. A few minor changes would make them a lot more versatile, and thus more useful in pvp. But I would not sit here and pretend that 2H is hands-down the best weapon choice. Frankly, I think that 2H skills need a buff to damage, because not only are they sub-par in damage potential to DW and bow in a pve setting, but the primary damage skill in this weapon line is extremely easy to avoid. Couple this with the fact that you have to be melee to use it (which is inherently a higher risk than bow or DW, where you have the option of being ranged) and the fact that it hits for the same (or less) damage, and I see pretty strong evidence that 2H is actually the ugly duck of the stamina weapon trio.

Cathexis wrote: »

Game has been about forcing players to use things since it went F2P

B2p*

Cathexis wrote: »

Game has been about forcing players to use things since it went F2P

Then don't play? These are the types of negative and unproductive posts that A) Don't belong here, and B ) Are ignorant and unsupported.

@GrumpyDuckling

My friend, each weapon tree has a vast repertoire of strengths and weaknesses which you seem to not be getting. Let me list some that I feel are important. (TLDR incoming.)

1. 2H : Our favourite go-to for PvP Dps.

The good: It comes with a gap closer, a heavy hitter with CC + self empower AND a heal over time that grants a sizeable heal if recasted after some time. It even has a single target execute. (soon to be aoe execute). 17% bonus damage to low health targets just for slotting executioner. Yes the 2H tree is amazing for the most part.

The bad: No aoe, even if executioner gets an aoe morph, this weapon tree is not going to be any good for aoe DPS. At best, you can leech kills of those proxy mag builds. Also, Wb is impossible to land in a 1v1 against someone competent. Ive had a colonel stam dk jump on my sorc and spend 5 mins trying to hit me with WB. He eventually sheathed his weapon, /clapped and left. I couldnt kill him either since my sorc was still v14 at that time and he had wings. Wb is UNRELIABLE, and easily avoided by good players. Also, 2H dosent even come close to DW for PvE dps. On top of this, u lose 1 set piece by going 2H. It can make a big difference.

DW : Bad in PVP mostly, but the top pick for PVE stam meelee DPS.

The good: Maelstrom daggers are made for the DK. Even if your not a DK, you can get major brutality off potions (cheap ones), and the DW comes with twin sword and blunt passive which can skyrocket your crit using daggers in PVE. Most top tier stam builds run DW/BOW while getting major brut from pots. It simply puts out the best DPS and provides the strongest stam AOE with an inbuilt execute that starts at 50%!!!!!, executioner starts at a much much lower percentage. (Think 25-30%). The other thing to note, is that DW provides flying blade, which is an excellent filler for those situations when PVE bosses start dropping big red AOES and you cant really meelee dps them during that time.

The bad: In PvP, DW is bad for the most part. It has however, found its use in certain set ups; bats + nado, corrosive armor + nado etc. As a semi-efficient zerg buster. In 1v1, flurry is just bad. People gonna CC, move making most of ur hits miss. It dosent help that the strongest hit from flurry is the final one, which is probably never going to land on anyone....

BOW : The unsung hero of the stam tool kit.

The good: Caltrops + bombard.... Get a few people in ur 12 man group running this and with proper positioning (and a good lead), you can LOCK DOWN huge groups of people. Get ur proxy bomber men to close in on enemy groups for the kill. Apart from that, we have snipe. This baby hits upwards of 10k (sometimes even 15k+) if the target isnt in full impen running a pvp worthy build. Snipe>stampede>WB>leap or Snipe>snipe>LA+poison injec or Snipe>Snipe>ambush>execute... The one hit wonder's wet dream is the BOW. The true strength of the bow is in its burst, and utility. On top of this, bow makes for an amazing back bar weapon for PVE dps. Most top tier builds run rearming trap, scorched earth, poison injection and caltrops on bow bar. Insane DPS boost in PVE.

The bad: super bad sustained DPS in both PVP and PVE as a main hand weapon. Nuff said. Simply not viable.

All of these weapons listed have their place in builds. With only a few skills and 2 morphs each per skill, it is impossible to balance weapons such that they are all useful in ALL situations. It simply wont work that way without introducing new skills or risk losing any sense of uniqueness in each of these weapons. What we need to recognise and acknowledge is that all these weapons are lethal when used by knowledgeable players in the correct situations.

I am willing to listen, however, if you have any ideas on how to make these weapons viable in both PVP and PVE while retaining their unique flavor. It seems, most people want a heal, an aoe, a hard hitting single target and some form of cc + major buff to be available for every single weapon line. It just dosent work that way imo.