"Forcing" Stamina Players to Use 2H?

GrumpyDuckling

It seems as if I'm hurting myself if I don't use 2H. Where else can I get Major Brutality, a heal over time followed by a larger heal at the end, empower, and a knockback all by using only 2 skills? (Rally + Wrecking Blow)

Now, from 26:37 to 27:17 in the latest ESO Live episode that aired on 3/25, we hear that 2H is getting a zerg-buster in Reverse Slice (Link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/56602018)

I'm glad that stamina builds are getting a zerg-buster option (about time), but why is it forced into the 2H tree? Proxy det doesn't force magicka builds to use a certain weapon. Now, if our best zerg-buster is going to be found in the 2H, what incentive do I have to use anything else? I really hope ZOS gives more zerg options to stamina builds than just a two-hander. Now we're looking at:

Rally + Wrecking Blow + Reverse Slice = 1) Major Brutality, 2) heal over time, 3) larger heal at end 4) empower, 5) knockback, 6) finisher, and 7) AOE zerg-buster.

Why should I even bother using my bow?

Silver_Strider

Yeah, ZOS is determined to limit stamina builds to death, including our weapon choice.

That said, bow still has some uses. Focus aim can still one shot people and is a great opener, poison injection is still a good DoT execute (which is even better now that mighty affects it) and Volley and its morphs are still pretty good in stationary conflicts or blocking breaches in PvP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This has been an issue for quite some time. I really want to play DW/Bow on my NB, but unless I am in a group with very good healers, its not a viable option. I like the bow for fighting around keeps, otherwise I go DW/2H. What concerns me more about 2H is the state of Crit Rush. I finally got a good maelstrom 2H over the weekend, go into cyrodiil excited as can be, and crit rush just makes my character twitch back and forth. I bet it hits really hard, but I will never know. Going back to a magic build I guess....

Mojmir

Zos logic- dual wield for magic users
2 hander for stamina users

SHADOW2KK

I am a stam build on one of my nbs, and barely use 2H, do not need too, I use Vigour, and either tri stat Weapon Pots, and or Flying Blade, which gives you extra weapon damage.

And it works fine for me.

kadar

I don't really understand your question.

Do you want to Steel Tornado with your 2H equipped? Do you want to Reverb Bash with your Dual Daggers? Every weapon tree should each have an Execute, Major Brutality, Major Savagery, an AOE, and a Heal?

How is diversity between weapon trees a bad thing?

GrumpyDuckling

The_Outsider wrote: »

I don't really understand your question.

Do you want to Steel Tornado with your 2H equipped? Do you want to Reverb Bash with your Dual Daggers? Every weapon tree should each have an Execute, Major Brutality, Major Savagery, an AOE, and a Heal?

How is diversity between weapon trees a bad thing?

I'm all for diversity. But 2H tree just feels so much stronger than the other weapon trees. That's the point. The question was to ZOS and other players. Does it seem like ZOS is "forcing" us to use 2H by making it the most diverse/strongest weapon skill line in the game?

Shaloran

I lucked out in this regard because I prefer to use two handed anyway, but I really don't think it's overpowered compared to DW. I use both. On my nightblade I DW and can kill swiftly and efficiently before going to the shadows, and on my DK I don't get kills as quickly, but I have more survivability and tankiness for the skills you mentioned. It seems fine to me.

STEVIL

Is this primarily directed towards PVP? I ask bc I havent noticed it sd an isdue in PVE.

If it is primarily focused in PVP play, why not post the thread in that forum section?

Assuming it is PVE focused as well...

Have you factored in that the 2h line offers one less slot than DW or Shield?
That mesns in terms of set bonuses, 4pc vs 3pc vs 5 pc etc, the 2h gets one extra less? One more Hundings or Night mothers bonus.

My dual wield has 5pc brisrheart, 5 pc night mother and bc she has two wespons can add a third set 2pcs. My 2h char, cannot do this. She ends up with basicalky a normal wespon for all intents and purposes.

So, if 2H wrre "equal" to the others but the DW and Shields got the extra 121 spell dmg or 5% higher crit would that be good enuf.

I have used 2h, dw, shield all on stamina buildsvand ehile i found shields not fitting my style, both DW and 2h remain prominent and quite successful.

YMMV esp if your focus is PVP.

bowmanz607

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It seems as if I'm hurting myself if I don't use 2H. Where else can I get Major Brutality, a heal over time followed by a larger heal at the end, empower, and a knockback all by using only 2 skills? (Rally + Wrecking Blow)

Now, from 26:37 to 27:17 in the latest ESO Live episode that aired on 3/25, we hear that 2H is getting a zerg-buster in Reverse Slice (Link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/56602018)

I'm glad that stamina builds are getting a zerg-buster option (about time), but why is it forced into the 2H tree? Proxy det doesn't force magicka builds to use a certain weapon. Now, if our best zerg-buster is going to be found in the 2H, what incentive do I have to use anything else? I really hope ZOS gives more zerg options to stamina builds than just a two-hander. Now we're looking at:

Rally + Wrecking Blow + Reverse Slice = 1) Major Brutality, 2) heal over time, 3) larger heal at end 4) empower, 5) knockback, 6) finisher, and 7) AOE zerg-buster.

Why should I even bother using my bow?

i would agree that skill lines need to be adjusted and that is happening in DB.

also, they did not say that 2h was getting a "zerg buster" but a group execute. You go on to mention that it is great for stam builds to get this, but why in 2h? Did you forget about the group execute steel tornado??

all that said, each tree offers diffent things. For instace, dw may have less utility, but it has a group execute, higher dps, an extra piece, hot, major brutaity, exdition, reduced damage from aoe, etc. Bow, offers range, aoe, execute, major expedition. basically, it is important to realize the strength of the other lines and not just point out their short comings.

again i point you to my first sentence though.

GreenSoup2HoT

Every nightblade in their heart wants to be a duel dagger wielding assassin. We all know its true.

Kinda sucks how duel wield is all utility abilitys. A DoT, Flurry well... no comment, great aoe, aoe mitigation, ranged damage for a weapon class that does not need it.

Duel Wield needs an overhaul.

kadar

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I don't really understand your question.

Do you want to Steel Tornado with your 2H equipped? Do you want to Reverb Bash with your Dual Daggers? Every weapon tree should each have an Execute, Major Brutality, Major Savagery, an AOE, and a Heal?

How is diversity between weapon trees a bad thing?

I'm all for diversity. But 2H tree just feels so much stronger than the other weapon trees. That's the point. The question was to ZOS and other players. Does it seem like ZOS is "forcing" us to use 2H by making it the most diverse/strongest weapon skill line in the game?

Ah ok, that makes more sense. The answer is going to depend on whether you mean in PvP, PvE, or both.

In PVE, the heal from Rally is irrelevant. There are other ways to get Major Brutality reliably for PVE. And WB is an OK single target damage source (It's CC also being mostly irrelevant). I run Bow/DW in PVE and can pull very high DPS even optimized more toward PVP.

In PVP, there's much more to be said. This topic probably belongs in a PVP thread, because it sounds like you're mostly leaning that way. If you're soloing/burst focused/non-bow ganker, it's hard to not use 2H, imo. I'm a NB, so I could get away without it (I surprise attack, not WB), but I like the healing combo of Rally + Vigor too much to give up 2H. I just run a couple different builds for what I'm doing in Cryodiil. I occasionally drop my 2H for DW when running in a large group for example.

EDIT: TLDR: I find that DW is the strongest Weapon line for AOE, Bow is the strongest weapon line for Ranged/Utility, Sword/Board is the strongest for mitigation/dueling, and 2H is the strongest single target.

GrumpyDuckling

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It seems as if I'm hurting myself if I don't use 2H. Where else can I get Major Brutality, a heal over time followed by a larger heal at the end, empower, and a knockback all by using only 2 skills? (Rally + Wrecking Blow)

Now, from 26:37 to 27:17 in the latest ESO Live episode that aired on 3/25, we hear that 2H is getting a zerg-buster in Reverse Slice (Link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/56602018)

I'm glad that stamina builds are getting a zerg-buster option (about time), but why is it forced into the 2H tree? Proxy det doesn't force magicka builds to use a certain weapon. Now, if our best zerg-buster is going to be found in the 2H, what incentive do I have to use anything else? I really hope ZOS gives more zerg options to stamina builds than just a two-hander. Now we're looking at:

Rally + Wrecking Blow + Reverse Slice = 1) Major Brutality, 2) heal over time, 3) larger heal at end 4) empower, 5) knockback, 6) finisher, and 7) AOE zerg-buster.

Why should I even bother using my bow?

i would agree that skill lines need to be adjusted and that is happening in DB.

also, they did not say that 2h was getting a "zerg buster" but a group execute. You go on to mention that it is great for stam builds to get this, but why in 2h? Did you forget about the group execute steel tornado??

all that said, each tree offers diffent things. For instace, dw may have less utility, but it has a group execute, higher dps, an extra piece, hot, major brutaity, exdition, reduced damage from aoe, etc. Bow, offers range, aoe, execute, major expedition. basically, it is important to realize the strength of the other lines and not just point out their short comings.

again i point you to my first sentence though.

You're right that the other weapon skill lines have strengths and I absolutely wouldn't suggest otherwise. It's hard for me, though, to justify using other weapons in PVP because of the way the game plays (large groups vs large groups).

The bow is my favorite weapon and it can be fun to snipe from a distance during a large battle and offers more mobility. However, I'm typically not going to use it if I hop into the middle of a large group fight, nor would I prefer to use it in a 1v1 because 2H is just much more efficient to use. The bow kinda gets stuck in this really niche use area, for me. Even though I want to use the bow I'm a stronger and more "effective" player with 2H because 2H offers more versatility.

D0ntevenL1ft

Why does magicka simply get to apply their zerg buster 8 seconds in advance and spam another skill during, but stam has to spam their zerg buster? Balance right?

GeorgeBlack

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

bowmanz607

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It seems as if I'm hurting myself if I don't use 2H. Where else can I get Major Brutality, a heal over time followed by a larger heal at the end, empower, and a knockback all by using only 2 skills? (Rally + Wrecking Blow)

Now, from 26:37 to 27:17 in the latest ESO Live episode that aired on 3/25, we hear that 2H is getting a zerg-buster in Reverse Slice (Link: https://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/56602018)

I'm glad that stamina builds are getting a zerg-buster option (about time), but why is it forced into the 2H tree? Proxy det doesn't force magicka builds to use a certain weapon. Now, if our best zerg-buster is going to be found in the 2H, what incentive do I have to use anything else? I really hope ZOS gives more zerg options to stamina builds than just a two-hander. Now we're looking at:

Rally + Wrecking Blow + Reverse Slice = 1) Major Brutality, 2) heal over time, 3) larger heal at end 4) empower, 5) knockback, 6) finisher, and 7) AOE zerg-buster.

Why should I even bother using my bow?

i would agree that skill lines need to be adjusted and that is happening in DB.

also, they did not say that 2h was getting a "zerg buster" but a group execute. You go on to mention that it is great for stam builds to get this, but why in 2h? Did you forget about the group execute steel tornado??

all that said, each tree offers diffent things. For instace, dw may have less utility, but it has a group execute, higher dps, an extra piece, hot, major brutaity, exdition, reduced damage from aoe, etc. Bow, offers range, aoe, execute, major expedition. basically, it is important to realize the strength of the other lines and not just point out their short comings.

again i point you to my first sentence though.

You're right that the other weapon skill lines have strengths and I absolutely wouldn't suggest otherwise. It's hard for me, though, to justify using other weapons in PVP because of the way the game plays (large groups vs large groups).

The bow is my favorite weapon and it can be fun to snipe from a distance during a large battle and offers more mobility. However, I'm typically not going to use it if I hop into the middle of a large group fight, nor would I prefer to use it in a 1v1 because 2H is just much more efficient to use. The bow kinda gets stuck in this really niche use area, for me. Even though I want to use the bow I'm a stronger and more "effective" player with 2H because 2H offers more versatility.

Your underlying point hit the nail on the head. The game play as changed so much since the introduction 9f the skill lines, which makes a redesign necessary and renders 2h the go to.

On another note, I think bow is pretty solid for aoe. Bombard is great for large groups. Throw in volley and caltrops and you got some nice damage. Also, poison injection is arguably the best dot in game. Which is great for single target. Basically, I think the skills for bow are solid in both group and single situations. The issue I have with bow is that the line is much more predicated on distance to achieve solid damage. Although in theory this makes sense, practically it does not translate outside of ganging and keeps. It is very easy to close the gap on a bow user which renders it inefficient in many scenarios. This is not the fault of the skills in the line, but how the line operates as a whole. The new passive helps, but requires a "gimic" so to speak to utilize which translates into a bandaid fix for me. Imo, bow skills are fine, the way the line operates needs to be looked at.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Every nightblade in their heart wants to be a duel dagger wielding assassin. We all know its true.

Kinda sucks how duel wield is all utility abilitys. A DoT, Flurry well... no comment, great aoe, aoe mitigation, ranged damage for a weapon class that does not need it.

Duel Wield needs an overhaul.

I don't think it needs an overhaul, but it does need to be looked at. It has a cheap and powerful dot. It has hot. It has single target dps which although is not great for pvp, is great for pve dps., the ranged ability is a very strong single target which gives a buff plus gets the benefit of dw passive which translates into an ability that does great damage, from a safe distance, while operating in some regards as an execute. Not to mention, major expedotion, reduced damage, and best aoe in game. Imo, it does not need an overhaul. Skills do need to be tweaked though. For instance, whirlwind and a bread an butter melee dps for pvp.

bowmanz607

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

I disagree with removing hidden blade. It allows for build diversity. If you run front and back bar without range, dw allows for range. Additionally, I don't like moving it to fighters guild. What do you replace there? Also, fighter already has a ranged Stam ability. Plus, keeping it in dw means you can proc dw passives.

I also disagree with cloak. You can't just take a class defining ability and give it to everyone.

AddictionX

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

I disagree with removing hidden blade. It allows for build diversity. If you run front and back bar without range, dw allows for range. Additionally, I don't like moving it to fighters guild. What do you replace there? Also, fighter already has a ranged Stam ability. Plus, keeping it in dw means you can proc dw passives.

I also disagree with cloak. You can't just take a class defining ability and give it to everyone.

Why not?

GeorgeBlack

Why not?
About cloak I didn't say anythimg btw

kadar

AddictionX wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

I disagree with removing hidden blade. It allows for build diversity. If you run front and back bar without range, dw allows for range. Additionally, I don't like moving it to fighters guild. What do you replace there? Also, fighter already has a ranged Stam ability. Plus, keeping it in dw means you can proc dw passives.

I also disagree with cloak. You can't just take a class defining ability and give it to everyone.

Why not?

Why not give Shadow Cloak to everyone? Is that really what you're asking?

EDIT: Is he talking about Blade Cloak?

masterbroodub17_ESO

Oh god this. The entire point of this system is supposed to be to allow freedom to build to your playstyle. Right now it's 2H or gtfo. It's just too damn good.

bowmanz607

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Why not?
About cloak I didn't say anythimg btw

when you said cloak in number 5 i assumed you were talking about adding nb cloak to dw. based on a later comment i believe my assumption was wrong. Clarify for me please.

AddictionX wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

I disagree with removing hidden blade. It allows for build diversity. If you run front and back bar without range, dw allows for range. Additionally, I don't like moving it to fighters guild. What do you replace there? Also, fighter already has a ranged Stam ability. Plus, keeping it in dw means you can proc dw passives.

I also disagree with cloak. You can't just take a class defining ability and give it to everyone.

Why not?

why not to what? i explained my thoughts behind hidden blade. as for the cloak statement i believ my assumption to what the post was talking about is off. until i get clarification i will wait to comment further.

GeorgeBlack

There is nothing more to it imo. The post says what it says. I want to improve DW. I want freedom to costumize, not to be forced to use 2H. I can't share your opinion.

Shaloran

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

There is nothing more to it imo. The post says what it says. I want to improve DW. I want freedom to costumize, not to be forced to use 2H. I can't share your opinion.

You aren't "forced" to do anything. Min/Maxing has always contradicted our choices. I don't want to be an Imperial either, I'd rather go Nord, but for the sake of Min/Maxing, I have to choose what I believe is the more optimal tank. If you don't want to min/max, use whatever you want and make it work. If not, just deal because that's what min/Maxing is, restrictive.

acw37162

In all honesty my prediction is;

They will end up nerfing 2H to make the other weapon sets more attractive by making 2H less attractive.

Move rally to fighters guild remove the major brutality buff increase the heal.

Give all classes abilities that activate majors sorcery and major brutality.

Give DW a stamina regen passive.

Make the stamina morph of whirlwind do more damage to large groups, stamina Zerg buster.

Make shrouded dagger morph and boomerang morph allowing to you activate multiple thrown daggers.

Remove major brutality from dagger throw as every class has access in skill line.

Make rapid strikes a front conal AOE, see jabs.

Give 2H a AoE ability where rally used to be, make it based on weapon type give it a soft CC effect.

Lastly not related to just stamina; all weapons that take up two equipment slots 2H, bows, and staff count as a two piece item and can grant two piece set bonuses.

Lylith

The_Outsider wrote: »

AddictionX wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Increase TWIN SLASHES dmg by a lot. Remove Dot* Add Major Brut 10 seconds.
2)Make FLURRYs first hit deal the bulk DMG, not the last so that everyone can avoid it
3)Tornado can remain as is (let's not create another OP skill line)
4)HIDDEN BLADE dmg decreace. Add DoT. Remove Maj Brut. Or remove the whole skill. This is dual wield, not ranged attacks. Or move it to Fighters Guild for those that want it.
5)CLOAK... your thoughts

I disagree with removing hidden blade. It allows for build diversity. If you run front and back bar without range, dw allows for range. Additionally, I don't like moving it to fighters guild. What do you replace there? Also, fighter already has a ranged Stam ability. Plus, keeping it in dw means you can proc dw passives.

I also disagree with cloak. You can't just take a class defining ability and give it to everyone.

Why not?

Why not give Shadow Cloak to everyone? Is that really what you're asking?

EDIT: Is he talking about Blade Cloak?

yes.

imapogostick

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This has been an issue for quite some time. I really want to play DW/Bow on my NB, but unless I am in a group with very good healers, its not a viable option. I like the bow for fighting around keeps, otherwise I go DW/2H. What concerns me more about 2H is the state of Crit Rush. I finally got a good maelstrom 2H over the weekend, go into cyrodiil excited as can be, and crit rush just makes my character twitch back and forth. I bet it hits really hard, but I will never know. Going back to a magic build I guess....

What about using vigor instead? And class self heals or buffs with magic

Edziu

Shaloran wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

There is nothing more to it imo. The post says what it says. I want to improve DW. I want freedom to costumize, not to be forced to use 2H. I can't share your opinion.

You aren't "forced" to do anything. Min/Maxing has always contradicted our choices. I don't want to be an Imperial either, I'd rather go Nord, but for the sake of Min/Maxing, I have to choose what I believe is the more optimal tank. If you don't want to min/max, use whatever you want and make it work. If not, just deal because that's what min/Maxing is, restrictive.

yes we are..on pve ok...we have pots but only with haler can do dung without 2h, dual and bow,,,but on solo playing you are forced to use 2h for heal and for buff to not wasting pots nonstop on anything.

on pvp you are forced to use 2h to get heal and also to weapon dmg buff, yes, you can meet some players using bow and dual on pvp...but they must using other good pots and be very very good players, not normal common person who playing in eso much to like do fast maelstorm arene with no death...normal players, so most players are forced to use 2h on stam build, because like this post:

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh god this. The entire point of this system is supposed to be to allow freedom to build to your playstyle. Right now it's 2H or gtfo. It's just too damn good.

2h or gtfo...and that is all for most players

STEVIL

Re: this
yes we are..on pve ok...we have pots but only with haler can do dung without 2h, dual and bow,,,but on solo playing you are forced to use 2h for heal and for buff to not wasting pots nonstop on anything

Sorry but I play pve solo, have a stam temp 2h, a stam NB 2h and a stam NB dw and I gotta say the most self-healing of the three is the nb.it's usually done thru reapers mark and kills and they usually come from dw rapid strikes which boosts from might and thau. He does a lot of damage, killing level eq foes faster usually than the others.

It is not imo or I'm "needed" or "necessary" to have a heal in the weapon tree to be effective. The state dw is quite effective and the extra slot set bonus helps.

Ymmv.

clayandaudrey_ESO

I have been dw/bow since beta. I do not feel forced to use 2h and never have used it. My performance in pve/pvp is excellent. If you feel forced to use it I think you need to study your character a little. Think you will find that following the streamers isn't always the best.

Shaloran

^^ This game is easy lmao... There's no need to follow anything someone else does. Do as you please. You shouldn't whine on the forums just because what you like isn't what's the most popular concensus. I've seen people do great with sword and board, it just comes down to what you do as a player to maximize your efficiency and that isn't always 2h for everyone.