Simple Fix for Argonians

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

Not a day goes by that I dont see a thread about Argonian passives. I am not an expert on lore by any means, but when I think Argonian, I think good swimmers and shadowscale. We can all agree that swimming is meaningless in this game, so to have it as one of three main racial passives is not beneficial to anyone. I think the focus should be on the shadowscale aspect.

From the ES Wiki:

"Shadowscales are Argonians, born under the sign of The Shadow in Black Marsh. They are trained from childhood in the art of stealth and combat. Shadowscales serve their province as assassins. They have historically been used by the King of Argonia as a means to end conflicts and wars without major bloodshed, and to gather information on potential foes."

We already have two stealthy stamina races, Khajiit and Bosmer. I think the Argonian should be the magic counter part. It would make them instantly viable and remain consistent with lore.

I propose passives as follows:

1. Same stealth boost as Khajiit and Bosmer.
2. A boost to Spell Crit.
3. A boost to magic, either regen or max magic. Regen might make more sense because boosting both spell crit and max magic, might be a little OP depending on the numbers.

Sounds like a Shadowscale to me.

Xvorg · March 2016

hmmm, waht about an extra 5% dmg on ranged skills?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

That would be a pretty powerful bonus for sure, and I think every sorc and siphonblade would re-roll argonian really fast. I am not trying to make them the best Min/max class, I just want them to have a viable niche to fill. Honestly this might be OP, and not sure it fits with the shadowscale lore.

But there are no bad ideas in brainstorming.

imapogostick · March 2016

I like the magic regeneration imo. they can't regen enough magic or stamina without drinks to stay in a fight long enough. So I have to substitute 10k health and magic so I can hit 1k on my magic regen to even have enough to fight they can keep their passive now just add magic regeneration in I doubt anyone would be crying about the swim passive still being there. I say khajitt should get night eye too. Wish they would put spears back in too haven't had one since morrowind3

Silver_Strider · March 2016

While I wouldn't typically focus Argonians as solely Magic Users and would prefer a hybrid approach similar to Dark Elves, I won't deny that I could live with this.

Farorin · March 2016

I would be okay with this, the stealth bonus is the thing I would be most okay with considering they have always been a stealth leaning race it seems.

GrumpyDuckling · March 2016

I get the Shadowscale argument as a reasoning for stealth, but not all Argonians are born under the sign of the shadow. I think a more efficient stealth-based argument from TES lore is that Argonians excel at ambush attacks. The ambush argument represents more Argonians than the Shadowscale argument.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

I agree that nothing about shadowscale means they must be magic. I do think it screams stealth. Since we already have 2 stealthy stam races, a magic version made sense in my mind and seemed largely consistent with lore. As for the Ambush attacks, I worry that would be a little too narrow of an approach. If you applied to all gap closers, it might make sense, but I am not sure we want to encourage more Ambush, crit rush, whatever, spam, especially considering these skills are rather broken at the moment. haha

Xvorg · March 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

That would be a pretty powerful bonus for sure, and I think every sorc and siphonblade would re-roll argonian really fast. I am not trying to make them the best Min/max class, I just want them to have a viable niche to fill. Honestly this might be OP, and not sure it fits with the shadowscale lore.

But there are no bad ideas in brainstorming.

I see it more on the guerrilla side of the argonians. It is an interesting trade because siphons, SB/2H/ rely on CQC, so a bonus on ranged attacks could be helpful just in the case of Destro staff and bow (and in occasions in resto).

But you are right a 5% is too much. What about a 2 or 3%?

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · March 2016

Tbh only female argonians were ever any good at magic and males were better as melee fighters, so having argonians only get magic bonuses wouldn't really fit the race. It needs to be a split between magic and stamina like dark elves get. I could see that being the replacement to amphibious and then giving a healing dealt rather then healing recieved for quick to mend so argonian "tanks" are still viable.

As for a range bonus that really makes no sense considering they were never any good with bows and always had bonuses to melee skills. It would be silly for argonians to get range bonus, but not woodelfs.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · March 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

Yeah for sure argonians should not be tanks with the low endurance stat they always had in the older games it makes no sense. The problem is though that people have already made tanks with their argonians and would get really upset if they got their borderline tanking skills taken away.

imapogostick · March 2016

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

Yeah for sure argonians should not be tanks with the low endurance stat they always had in the older games it makes no sense. The problem is though that people have already made tanks with their argonians and would get really upset if they got their borderline tanking skills taken away.

Yeah I would prolly be a little upset myself since tank is basically the only good role argonian fits. So I've had to redo several characters to finally find a good point for argonian.which would be a magic dk mostly tank. Also I feel magic would benefit them the most like previous person said we got stam nbs and to even use argonian and get the racial passives for nb you would have to be magic. Dk magic argonian seems to be the better option as well as a magic templar and sorcerer. I still don't get why ppl play a stamina sorc. But w.e but what I don't get is the poor ep who are stuck with 3 tanks basically and no healers. Best healer is I would assume dark elf.who's also prolly their best dk, and sorcerer.might as well just throw nb in there too.lucky for me my argonians are dc.got that good healer over there...

Artis · March 2016

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wreuntzylla · March 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I get the Shadowscale argument as a reasoning for stealth, but not all Argonians are born under the sign of the shadow. I think a more efficient stealth-based argument from TES lore is that Argonians excel at ambush attacks. The ambush argument represents more Argonians than the Shadowscale argument.

It wasn't ambush attacks that led the daedra to close the Black Marsh oblivion portals...

Argonians are simply pound for pound better fighters, mages, etc. The passives fail to reflect the lore.

CarltonBanks · March 2016

Stealth while being in a body of water would be nice, dare to dream

Xvorg · March 2016

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

You know that those "awesome" tanky passives are nerfed a 50% in Cyrodiil due to battle spirit, right?

So, do Altmers or bretons passives suffer from jumping into PvP? Or do you try to say that an entire race should aim for PvE?

Autolycus · March 2016

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wow, you are both very defensive and frankly rude. For the record, I don't play an argonian. I have a low level alt, but have no interest in leveling the character because the passives arent very good. I was simply pointing out that I see a lot of threads complaining about Argonians (there were 3 on the first 2 pages of the forums when I posted this). I thought I would propose a reasonable solution that was both consistent with lore and fit reasonably well with races we already have. I am not complaining about or demanding anything. I am not asking for nerfs. I am simply trying to spitball some ideas to bring Argonians on par with everyone else, because like it or not, they are the weakest race in Tamriel (followed pretty closely by Nords). That is what forums are for. So please take your negativity elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

Autolycus · March 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wow, you are both very defensive and frankly rude. For the record, I don't play an argonian. I have a low level alt, but have no interest in leveling the character because the passives arent very good. I was simply pointing out that I see a lot of threads complaining about Argonians (there were 3 on the first 2 pages of the forums when I posted this). I thought I would propose a reasonable solution that was both consistent with lore and fit reasonably well with races we already have. I am not complaining about or demanding anything. I am not asking for nerfs. I am simply trying to spitball some ideas to bring Argonians on par with everyone else, because like it or not, they are the weakest race in Tamriel (followed pretty closely by Nords). That is what forums are far. So please take your negativity elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

You're operating under the assumption that forums convey facts. Forums usually do not convey facts, rather they mostly convey opinions, and are sometimes supported with data. Every thread I see bashing Argonians because of them being allegedly "useless" is one less reason to be polite. I'm sorry that offended you, but I'm not criticizing your suggestion. Rather, I am criticizing your approach, because you are furthering the nonsense that is Argonian chatter on this forumspace. I get that you are proposing a simple idea that would fit with lore, and for what it's worth, I don't think it's a bad suggestion. But I simply would not agree with changing it, because they're fine the way they are. You don't need to be a magicka race to get 40k magicka. You don't need a mitigation passive to make a good tank.

The fact of the matter is that Argonians can be in ESO whatever ZOS wants them to be. Don't take my aversion to your suggestions personally, because it's not that I believe they wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a strong magicka race. In ESO, they are not a magicka race, and that's just how it is. We have a good balance between the passives as it is right now. People just bash Argonian passives because 1. they simply would like it to be differently, as a matter of preference, and 2. they don't know how (or haven't actually tried) to utilize them effectively.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wow, you are both very defensive and frankly rude. For the record, I don't play an argonian. I have a low level alt, but have no interest in leveling the character because the passives arent very good. I was simply pointing out that I see a lot of threads complaining about Argonians (there were 3 on the first 2 pages of the forums when I posted this). I thought I would propose a reasonable solution that was both consistent with lore and fit reasonably well with races we already have. I am not complaining about or demanding anything. I am not asking for nerfs. I am simply trying to spitball some ideas to bring Argonians on par with everyone else, because like it or not, they are the weakest race in Tamriel (followed pretty closely by Nords). That is what forums are far. So please take your negativity elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

You're operating under the assumption that forums convey facts. Forums usually do not convey facts, rather they mostly convey opinions, and are sometimes supported with data. Every thread I see bashing Argonians because of them being allegedly "useless" is one less reason to be polite. I'm sorry that offended you, but I'm not criticizing your suggestion. Rather, I am criticizing your approach, because you are furthering the nonsense that is Argonian chatter on this forumspace. I get that you are proposing a simple idea that would fit with lore, and for what it's worth, I don't think it's a bad suggestion. But I simply would not agree with changing it, because they're fine the way they are. You don't need to be a magicka race to get 40k magicka. You don't need a mitigation passive to make a good tank.

The fact of the matter is that Argonians can be in ESO whatever ZOS wants them to be. Don't take my aversion to your suggestions personally, because it's not that I believe they wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a strong magicka race. In ESO, they are not a magicka race, and that's just how it is. We have a good balance between the passives as it is right now. People just bash Argonian passives because 1. they simply would like it to be differently, as a matter of preference, and 2. they don't know how (or haven't actually tried) to utilize them effectively.

I get it, believe me I do. I am so sick of Nerf threads that it makes me want to pull my hair out and never look at these forums again. That being said, it's a sad state when you can't even make a reasonable suggestion without having people jump down your throat. I agree that ZOS can do pretty much whatever they want, and I generally think they do far more good things than bad (I am still playing), but I do think Lore is important because it is an ES game after all. Argonians like any race can be viable in any roll if built correctly, but there is always a better option. I just wish they had their niche like the rest of the races. This proposal might give them one.

Autolycus · March 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wow, you are both very defensive and frankly rude. For the record, I don't play an argonian. I have a low level alt, but have no interest in leveling the character because the passives arent very good. I was simply pointing out that I see a lot of threads complaining about Argonians (there were 3 on the first 2 pages of the forums when I posted this). I thought I would propose a reasonable solution that was both consistent with lore and fit reasonably well with races we already have. I am not complaining about or demanding anything. I am not asking for nerfs. I am simply trying to spitball some ideas to bring Argonians on par with everyone else, because like it or not, they are the weakest race in Tamriel (followed pretty closely by Nords). That is what forums are far. So please take your negativity elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

You're operating under the assumption that forums convey facts. Forums usually do not convey facts, rather they mostly convey opinions, and are sometimes supported with data. Every thread I see bashing Argonians because of them being allegedly "useless" is one less reason to be polite. I'm sorry that offended you, but I'm not criticizing your suggestion. Rather, I am criticizing your approach, because you are furthering the nonsense that is Argonian chatter on this forumspace. I get that you are proposing a simple idea that would fit with lore, and for what it's worth, I don't think it's a bad suggestion. But I simply would not agree with changing it, because they're fine the way they are. You don't need to be a magicka race to get 40k magicka. You don't need a mitigation passive to make a good tank.

The fact of the matter is that Argonians can be in ESO whatever ZOS wants them to be. Don't take my aversion to your suggestions personally, because it's not that I believe they wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a strong magicka race. In ESO, they are not a magicka race, and that's just how it is. We have a good balance between the passives as it is right now. People just bash Argonian passives because 1. they simply would like it to be differently, as a matter of preference, and 2. they don't know how (or haven't actually tried) to utilize them effectively.

I get it, believe me I do. I am so sick of Nerf threads that it makes me want to pull my hair out and never look at these forums again. That being said, it's a sad state when you can't even make a reasonable suggestion without having people jump down your throat. I agree that ZOS can do pretty much whatever they want, and I generally think they do far more good things than bad (I am still playing), but I do think Lore is important because it is an ES game after all. Argonians like any race can be viable in any roll if built correctly, but there is always a better option. I just wish they had their niche like the rest of the races. This proposal might give them one.

Yes, that's true. In hindsight, I could have been far less abrasive and confrontational about it, despite my own views on the matter. For what it's worth now, I think your suggestion is interesting, and could add a bit of unique flavor to the race that would sit more comfortably with the masses.

The only thing I would add there that might be considered a rebuttal would be that Argonians already fill a niche role, it just happens to be widely underused and undervalued. That doesn't mean that Argonians, as a race, can't be more or less useful, or that this is the best or worst setup for them. It does mean though, that if yet another change is made, then those of who have been playing one for X months/years will have to change again to accommodate it.

Anyway, sorry for being a turd nugget on your thread. I should have been more respectful of your suggestion, considering it's not like the other rage threads.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

One of my guilds hosted a fishing tournament in Cyro about year back. It was way more fun than I thought it would be. The Argonians destroyed the competition with their swim speed to get to the next spot. Haha

Xvorg · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

One of the few things I disagree with you is about argonians in PvP (because the extra healing in PVE is amazing). I undesrtand your point regarding healing, in raw numbers 6% is not a huge difference from 12%

The point lies around the health bar. I think you do agree that health in this game only serves to one purpose: keep you on playing and notghing else. It's garbage. While stamina and magicka not only affect your ability to do things (such as casting jesus beam or WB), they also affect your performance. The more stam or mag you have, the stronger you are.

So, if you build an altmer NB around the siphoning line and include something like inner light from mages guild, and the undaunted mettle passive you will have a toon with:

10% extra magicka for being a tall hipster
8% extra magicka for sucking other's life
5% extra magicka for studying with Vanus Galerion
6% extra magicka for playing dungeons and dragons

total a 29% extra magicka. And that's a lot. If you are able to reach 20K magicka in a non magicka race, then an altmer with those same skills will have almos 6k extra magicka just for being him. And we haven't even touched enchantments, or sets. At 30K base, the altmer is getting 10k for free.

And I'm ok with that.

What I'm not ok is with the bonus to the garbage. 9% extra health seems to be important but for what? The only skills that could be useful with a high healtth pool in all the game are:

1- Blazing shield (shield+dmg) - Templar (and this is the coolest one)
2- Ferocious leap shield (shield) - DK
3- Dragon Blood (heal) - DK
4- Magma shell dmg cap(3% mitigation) - DK
5- Battle roar passive (heal) - DK
6- Blood magic passive (heal) - Sorc
7- Unstable clanfear (heal) - Sorc
8- Killers blade (heal) - NB
9- Mark Target, both morphs (heal) - NB
10- Leeching strikes (heal) - NB
11- Absorve magic (heal) - S/B
12- Blood Altar (only as sinergy/heal) UD
13- Consumming soul trap (heal) SM
14- Drain essence (only 10% of missing health/heal) Vamp
15- Cleanse (only if you have an effect/Heal) Support

Of those skill, only one is a dmg skill that costs magicka (blazing shield). The shield from dragon leap and mitigation from magma armor seem OK, but both belong to a different class and both are utis, so you cannot used both at the same time. The rests are heals that cost, most of the time, magicka to be casted.

If you go with meta, you should favor magicka or stamina, but you will end up being weaker than min-maxers (ok, you are the exception that confirms the rule). If you go on your nature and max health, then you will have to sit in middle of a fight using light(er)/heavy attacks than a min-maxer. And you will end up cced and dead. No matter how much health you got, you will die the same than the rest (unless you have a blazing shield active, case in which you will die to snipes and meteors). Then you becoime from a player to a stone. Should we play PvP like a stone?

The point is, will you enjoy the PvP better than a min-maxer? I think no. Should you go to PvE? It is a good option, but not a solution.

Zenimax could keep the passive just the way it is, but to do that should implement another use for health (somebody once mentioned res regen depending on health and that's an idea). Also, they could make at least 2 or 3 more skills like dragon leap, blazing shield or magma armor which depends on the health pool and that are no heals (the game is plenty of heals based on spell dmg/magicka and wpn dmg/stamina).

The other solution should be a rework on racials which are in-line with the rest of the game.

For me, it's clear...

I'll wait for a change
like a stone
I'll wait for a change
Alone
Alone...

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I get the Shadowscale argument as a reasoning for stealth, but not all Argonians are born under the sign of the shadow. I think a more efficient stealth-based argument from TES lore is that Argonians excel at ambush attacks. The ambush argument represents more Argonians than the Shadowscale argument.

I agree here. I do think a representation of the argonian race as being excellent at guerrilla warfare is warranted in their attributes however. Perhaps something like Stamina Regen % and Magicka Regeneration %. Really I think the race as a whole should be about regeneration not about maximum statistics. I also think poison/disease resist should not be forgotten, nor should swim speed. Stealth is also very thematic.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

Yeah for sure argonians should not be tanks with the low endurance stat they always had in the older games it makes no sense. The problem is though that people have already made tanks with their argonians and would get really upset if they got their borderline tanking skills taken away.

This is why I present the idea of giving Argonians a Magicka/Stamina Regeneration, and keeping a bonus from Health Regeneration is likewise logical. Giving Argonians better regeneration suits the notion of a creature that is good at running, good at fighting with staying power, but not necessarily the aggressive berserker quality you see with Orcs. Additionally, Regeneration is universally useful, whether you are a tank, a dps, a healer. This is one of the things that makes Bosmer universally useful despite only a stamina bonus and stealth passive. The extremely high stamina regeneration can make a big difference in survivability.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

imapogostick wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

Yeah for sure argonians should not be tanks with the low endurance stat they always had in the older games it makes no sense. The problem is though that people have already made tanks with their argonians and would get really upset if they got their borderline tanking skills taken away.

Yeah I would prolly be a little upset myself since tank is basically the only good role argonian fits. So I've had to redo several characters to finally find a good point for argonian.which would be a magic dk mostly tank. Also I feel magic would benefit them the most like previous person said we got stam nbs and to even use argonian and get the racial passives for nb you would have to be magic. Dk magic argonian seems to be the better option as well as a magic templar and sorcerer. I still don't get why ppl play a stamina sorc. But w.e but what I don't get is the poor ep who are stuck with 3 tanks basically and no healers. Best healer is I would assume dark elf.who's also prolly their best dk, and sorcerer.might as well just throw nb in there too.lucky for me my argonians are dc.got that good healer over there...

Dunmer are not a tank race. I would suggest that Dunmer favor Magic builds, but can be better than average Stamina builds. Dunmer also make excellent hybrids, if hybrids were any good. Beyond that I agree with you that it is clear in the current stage of the game Nord and Argonian are tank races, and really not much else. AD is Stamina/Stealth Damage (Bosmer/Khajiit) and Magic Damage (Altmer). DC is Stamina Damage (Redguard, Orc), Tank (Orc/Redguard), Magic damage/tank (Breton).

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

You know that those "awesome" tanky passives are nerfed a 50% in Cyrodiil due to battle spirit, right?

So, do Altmers or bretons passives suffer from jumping into PvP? Or do you try to say that an entire race should aim for PvE?

Imperials deal with the problem as well (Red Diamond). I'd like to point out that I agree with you on this matter entirely. Battle Spirit is bad on a multitude of levels and treats the DK and Templar classes unfairly in a most blatant way. Rather than simply balancing the skills individually they made sweeping changes that don't work. Another fine example of this is the way they've treated Blocking.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oh boy, another QQ thread about Argonians.

Argonians are, in the Elder Scrolls Online, how ZOS intended them to be played. They have no obligation to make Argonians identical to the way they have been in prior ES games, so get over it.

Either you like playing an Argonian, so you play one, or you recognize their inherent advantages as a tank class, so you play one. If one of these two things is not true, then you don't play one. Quit whining just because they didn't do it the way you want to see it done.

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

Wow, you are both very defensive and frankly rude. For the record, I don't play an argonian. I have a low level alt, but have no interest in leveling the character because the passives arent very good. I was simply pointing out that I see a lot of threads complaining about Argonians (there were 3 on the first 2 pages of the forums when I posted this). I thought I would propose a reasonable solution that was both consistent with lore and fit reasonably well with races we already have. I am not complaining about or demanding anything. I am not asking for nerfs. I am simply trying to spitball some ideas to bring Argonians on par with everyone else, because like it or not, they are the weakest race in Tamriel (followed pretty closely by Nords). That is what forums are far. So please take your negativity elsewhere if you have nothing to contribute.

You're operating under the assumption that forums convey facts. Forums usually do not convey facts, rather they mostly convey opinions, and are sometimes supported with data. Every thread I see bashing Argonians because of them being allegedly "useless" is one less reason to be polite. I'm sorry that offended you, but I'm not criticizing your suggestion. Rather, I am criticizing your approach, because you are furthering the nonsense that is Argonian chatter on this forumspace. I get that you are proposing a simple idea that would fit with lore, and for what it's worth, I don't think it's a bad suggestion. But I simply would not agree with changing it, because they're fine the way they are. You don't need to be a magicka race to get 40k magicka. You don't need a mitigation passive to make a good tank.

The fact of the matter is that Argonians can be in ESO whatever ZOS wants them to be. Don't take my aversion to your suggestions personally, because it's not that I believe they wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a strong magicka race. In ESO, they are not a magicka race, and that's just how it is. We have a good balance between the passives as it is right now. People just bash Argonian passives because 1. they simply would like it to be differently, as a matter of preference, and 2. they don't know how (or haven't actually tried) to utilize them effectively.

Actually their changes to Argonians some time back (I want to say it was 1.5 or 1.6) fundamentally changed the efficacy of my Argonian Nightblade. I've since modified things but in all seriousness the game changed on us, and many of us were not fully convinced of the way argonians were treated from a lore perspective either. I still love my Argonian character and there is no way I would delete him, but I think there is room for people to argue and debate the topic. I don't see it as whining, I see it as people giving customer feedback. Potions are still a big part of what I do with my Argonian, and I'm not going to say that its not useful that I can pop an Immovable+Spd potion, get healed, and pop cloak to jet to safety and get my armor boost from shadow passives. I make it work and I have to say if I captured video of some of my narrow escapes it would look pretty badass. There are escapes I've done with my Argonian that I don't think I could do with another character so easily, except perhaps Khajiit/Bosmer (who get a superior detection range). It has been my position all along though that Argonians should get something which treats them as stealthier than Orcs, Humans, etc. I would even be happy with them not getting a critical bonus to attacks from stealth, but I do feel they should be more stealthy than your average human/mer. This has been my position all along on the theme of the race. My other position has been that it is silly that Orcs/Nords/Khajiit get better healing factor (robust trait) than Argonians.

Autolycus · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yeah, I realize the lore does not suggest 100% magic necessarily. I am not opposed to their buffs looking more like Dark Elves. That being said, I think the assassin model for an argonian does make a lot of sense. We dont have a magic based assassin race at the moment, but we do have 2 stam versions. That's why I think it makes sense both with lore to some degree, and with the races we already have. Nobody is complaining about Khajiit or Bosmer, and a magic counterpart makes sense. Argonian seem like a logical race, and they need overhauled one way or another. Ultimately, the goal is to be at least consistent with lore, make them viable, and make them somewhat unique.

My big problem with the healing idea is that I just dont think "tank" when I think argonian, nor do I think healer for that matter. I also question the melee buff for 2 reasons. One, we already have that with Orcs, and I dont picture Argonians as the brawlers that orcs are and should be. Assassins get up close and personal, but they arent exactly in your face. I think someone that would slit your throat in your sleep and disappear before anyone knew what happened. To me, that would take, high stealth, high crit, and some extra resources.

Yeah for sure argonians should not be tanks with the low endurance stat they always had in the older games it makes no sense. The problem is though that people have already made tanks with their argonians and would get really upset if they got their borderline tanking skills taken away.

This is why I present the idea of giving Argonians a Magicka/Stamina Regeneration, and keeping a bonus from Health Regeneration is likewise logical. Giving Argonians better regeneration suits the notion of a creature that is good at running, good at fighting with staying power, but not necessarily the aggressive berserker quality you see with Orcs. Additionally, Regeneration is universally useful, whether you are a tank, a dps, a healer. This is one of the things that makes Bosmer universally useful despite only a stamina bonus and stealth passive. The extremely high stamina regeneration can make a big difference in survivability.

I like where your heads are at, but I'd suggest that recoveries would not offer the substantial benefit you are hoping for. In most cases, recovery is just as much a dump stat as health is. By this I mean that you need the bare minimum to keep going. High recoveries represent a cost that is associated with no real reward. There's more to it than simply calling it a dump stat, I get that, but it remains true in both pvp and pve that once a certain point is reached, pretty much every ounce of extra recovery is a wasted point. It's not like max magicka/stam where the more you sink in, the more powerful you are, in addition to having a larger resource pool.

Healers have the highest standards for recovery, but both tanks and dps are usually better off going into max stats or raw weapon/spell damage. I've been tanking for quite some time now (since PC launch), and as this game has changed since I first began, recoveries have become far less important. Some of the best tanks I know have <1k in any of the three recoveries, and this is accounting for permablock tanks. It's more complex than this, but generally speaking, recoveries are not a priority stat.

I want to leave something more constructive here, since I already stained the OP's thread with negativity earlier. I really like the idea of something that supports the guerilla warfare aspect of Argonian lore. Something like this really adds flavor to the race, and I think would make for some interesting builds. The biggest drawback I foresee with this is balance, particularly in pvp (where the meta is super damage and gankers are everywhere). This would do virtually nothing from a pve perspective in endgame content. It would be fun for leveling and exploring, but there is really nowhere in trials where stealth attacks are even possible, especially in vMA (where you can't stealth at all).

Xvorg · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Right now argonians are fine. Stop whining please, or -please god no - zos will listen and create monsters ala imperials.
Argonians already have awesome tanky passives. But you don't care about balance, you care for your character to be buffed, right?

Otherwise you'd create a topic asking to nerf altmer or bring breton cost reduction on par with altmer magicka regen (just go and check how many CP you need to get the amount each of these races has to see how unfair it is lol) or equalize redguard and bosmer passive magicka regen, but no - you just want your argonian buffed. Not cool. These threads were interesting a year ago, now it's just annoying, so please stop.

You know that those "awesome" tanky passives are nerfed a 50% in Cyrodiil due to battle spirit, right?

So, do Altmers or bretons passives suffer from jumping into PvP? Or do you try to say that an entire race should aim for PvE?

Imperials deal with the problem as well (Red Diamond). I'd like to point out that I agree with you on this matter entirely. Battle Spirit is bad on a multitude of levels and treats the DK and Templar classes unfairly in a most blatant way. Rather than simply balancing the skills individually they made sweeping changes that don't work. Another fine example of this is the way they've treated Blocking.

What if we negate the battle spirit 50% healing cap on argonians and imperials?