guard system is so incredibly frustrating

UrQuan · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

AshTal wrote: »

They could make the guard experience much better than it currently is.

Also would be nice if they didn't kill us but stuck us in prison instead.

It would be cool if it worked like this:

If the guards "kill" you they have actually knocked you out, and you wake up in a cell minus all of your stolen goods and gold to pay your bounty.

If the amount of gold taken from you is enough to pay off your bounty entirely, the guard talks to you and lets you go (with a lecture in the dialogue box).

If you weren't carrying enough gold to pay off your bounty, you can wait in the cell until your bounty expires (this represents you completing your prison sentence, and progresses while you're offline in the same way that bounties go down while you're offline currently).

Alternately, you can pick the master lock on the cell door, and go through a heist-like mission to escape the prison while avoiding guards. This puts you in a trespassing area, so if you get spotted you'll get a bounty even if you escape. The prison would be instanced to you and would include both killable and unkillable guards, some with lanterns to detect stealth. There would also be other cells with locked doors (so you can unlock the doors and duck in and out of cells as needed to avoid guards), a locked room with a strongbox holding an amount of gold proportionate to how much gold they took from you (so if you get this strongbox you get back say 75% of what you lost to the guards), and a handful of hiding spots. Maybe 2 different options for an escape route from the building too - one that's through the front door, and one through a different method (maybe a window, maybe a sewer, whatever).

Of course, I'm sure people would complain about that too...

@UrQuan this is an awesome idea. I gave you an awesome for this. I'd love to have you suggest it on my Thieves Guild improvement page if you're interested: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/254456/i-rate-the-thieves-guild-dlc-very-highly-but-i-have-a-few-suggestions-for-improvement-and-growth#latesthttp://

Sure, done!

Ni7eWa7ch · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also there are now some get out of jail free cards you can use to lower your bounty these days.

1. Learn how to line of sight, it'll help you with pvp and thieving.
2. Learn the routes. Think about ingress and egress. Be aware of your surroundings, knowledge is a powerful thing.
3. Make sure to put points in Legerdemain and Thieves Guild skills if you actually intend to be a thief. It makes things easier.
4. Invisibility, Immobile and Speed potions are your friend.
5. Forward Momentum from 2 hander can help with breaking out of snares, as well as purify, purge, and a retreating maneuver. These will help you out with dealing with snares as well.
6. Use Cloak if you have it, this skill is probably one of the most useful.
7. If you use cloak or an invisibility potion, break line of sight then pop it, and jump into a barrel if you are indoors, or at the very least make enough distance that you are safe.
8. Don't expect to be a superman at theft early on, you really need to sink points into Legerdemain fast. Thieves guild adds a lot of quality of life passives.

Really it is very easy and you're just new to the system. I barely have time to play lately and in the last couple weeks I've made over 100,000 gold from thieving and some nice purple motifs, recipes, materials and armors/weapon sets.

Where do you steal purple motifs and sets ?
I only jack the lockboxes ..
As for the OP , it's not that difficult to avoid them or to flee from them but then that's just my opinion and completely respect your opinion that you don't like the justice system

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Ni7eWa7ch wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also there are now some get out of jail free cards you can use to lower your bounty these days.

1. Learn how to line of sight, it'll help you with pvp and thieving.
2. Learn the routes. Think about ingress and egress. Be aware of your surroundings, knowledge is a powerful thing.
3. Make sure to put points in Legerdemain and Thieves Guild skills if you actually intend to be a thief. It makes things easier.
4. Invisibility, Immobile and Speed potions are your friend.
5. Forward Momentum from 2 hander can help with breaking out of snares, as well as purify, purge, and a retreating maneuver. These will help you out with dealing with snares as well.
6. Use Cloak if you have it, this skill is probably one of the most useful.
7. If you use cloak or an invisibility potion, break line of sight then pop it, and jump into a barrel if you are indoors, or at the very least make enough distance that you are safe.
8. Don't expect to be a superman at theft early on, you really need to sink points into Legerdemain fast. Thieves guild adds a lot of quality of life passives.

Really it is very easy and you're just new to the system. I barely have time to play lately and in the last couple weeks I've made over 100,000 gold from thieving and some nice purple motifs, recipes, materials and armors/weapon sets.

Where do you steal purple motifs and sets ?
I only jack the lockboxes ..
As for the OP , it's not that difficult to avoid them or to flee from them but then that's just my opinion and completely respect your opinion that you don't like the justice system

@Ni7eWa7ch , when I'm out thieving I also take a look at any barrels, bags, etc that are around. You would be surprised some of the goodies you can get. When I'm playing as a thief my fingers are extremely sticky, and I don't just try to loot pockets and lockboxes (though lockboxes should be able to get you a motif). Speaking of which I wish an Imperial motif would drop for me again.

Ni7eWa7ch · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ni7eWa7ch wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also there are now some get out of jail free cards you can use to lower your bounty these days.

1. Learn how to line of sight, it'll help you with pvp and thieving.
2. Learn the routes. Think about ingress and egress. Be aware of your surroundings, knowledge is a powerful thing.
3. Make sure to put points in Legerdemain and Thieves Guild skills if you actually intend to be a thief. It makes things easier.
4. Invisibility, Immobile and Speed potions are your friend.
5. Forward Momentum from 2 hander can help with breaking out of snares, as well as purify, purge, and a retreating maneuver. These will help you out with dealing with snares as well.
6. Use Cloak if you have it, this skill is probably one of the most useful.
7. If you use cloak or an invisibility potion, break line of sight then pop it, and jump into a barrel if you are indoors, or at the very least make enough distance that you are safe.
8. Don't expect to be a superman at theft early on, you really need to sink points into Legerdemain fast. Thieves guild adds a lot of quality of life passives.

Really it is very easy and you're just new to the system. I barely have time to play lately and in the last couple weeks I've made over 100,000 gold from thieving and some nice purple motifs, recipes, materials and armors/weapon sets.

Where do you steal purple motifs and sets ?
I only jack the lockboxes ..
As for the OP , it's not that difficult to avoid them or to flee from them but then that's just my opinion and completely respect your opinion that you don't like the justice system

@Ni7eWa7ch , when I'm out thieving I also take a look at any barrels, bags, etc that are around. You would be surprised some of the goodies you can get. When I'm playing as a thief my fingers are extremely sticky, and I don't just try to loot pockets and lockboxes (though lockboxes should be able to get you a motif). Speaking of which I wish an Imperial motif would drop for me again.

barrels and tons & bags , hmm very insightfull i'll take a look in there
thanks for the advice

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Ni7eWa7ch wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ni7eWa7ch wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also there are now some get out of jail free cards you can use to lower your bounty these days.

1. Learn how to line of sight, it'll help you with pvp and thieving.
2. Learn the routes. Think about ingress and egress. Be aware of your surroundings, knowledge is a powerful thing.
3. Make sure to put points in Legerdemain and Thieves Guild skills if you actually intend to be a thief. It makes things easier.
4. Invisibility, Immobile and Speed potions are your friend.
5. Forward Momentum from 2 hander can help with breaking out of snares, as well as purify, purge, and a retreating maneuver. These will help you out with dealing with snares as well.
6. Use Cloak if you have it, this skill is probably one of the most useful.
7. If you use cloak or an invisibility potion, break line of sight then pop it, and jump into a barrel if you are indoors, or at the very least make enough distance that you are safe.
8. Don't expect to be a superman at theft early on, you really need to sink points into Legerdemain fast. Thieves guild adds a lot of quality of life passives.

Really it is very easy and you're just new to the system. I barely have time to play lately and in the last couple weeks I've made over 100,000 gold from thieving and some nice purple motifs, recipes, materials and armors/weapon sets.

Where do you steal purple motifs and sets ?
I only jack the lockboxes ..
As for the OP , it's not that difficult to avoid them or to flee from them but then that's just my opinion and completely respect your opinion that you don't like the justice system

@Ni7eWa7ch , when I'm out thieving I also take a look at any barrels, bags, etc that are around. You would be surprised some of the goodies you can get. When I'm playing as a thief my fingers are extremely sticky, and I don't just try to loot pockets and lockboxes (though lockboxes should be able to get you a motif). Speaking of which I wish an Imperial motif would drop for me again.

barrels and tons & bags , hmm very insightfull i'll take a look in there
thanks for the advice

You're welcome.

starkerealm · March 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

Don't do that. People are trying to help you.

Take that attitude to WoW.

To @UrQuan , @dodgehopper_ESO and others:

Don't think your advice was wasted. You've inspired me to really start stealing.

Well @IrishGirlGamer it's like I always say: if I can convince just one person to really start stealing, then I feel like I've made a difference

Well, it's like I always say, you steal a fish, you'll eat for a day, you teach a man to steal fish, and suddenly you're a bad influence... wait, I think I screwed that one up.

CaptainBeerDude · March 2016

Jail would be an interesting concept, but what if you have 8 toons with 1+ month sentences? Is your game reduced to being able to participate in excercise and meal times provided you log in at the right times?

scorpiodog · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

How about you get to kill guards but if they catch you afterwards your character goes through a murder trial, is beaten in prison daily by the murdered guards' friends, then spend life in prison getting gang *** by bosses. For an immersive experience every time you log in your character is quivering bloody mess. Or you are shown mercy and are executed in the city square and the character is dead forever, and you have to re-roll a new character from level 1?

That would be realistic. Maybe they could make it even more immersive by showing a camera shot of your severed neck as your head falls into the basket.

Nestor · March 2016

Ni7eWa7ch wrote: »

Where do you steal purple motifs and sets ?
I only jack the lockboxes ..

I don't think I have ever seen a motif in a lockbox. Only in Furniture, Chests and Urns and some Backpacks (the ones not in town) I have pulled Purple Loot from a Lockbox.

As for the Set Items, Troves are where those drop, if they are going to. Otherwise it is the Reward Containers.

Volkodav · March 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Benie wrote: »

Bossdonut wrote: »

If you can't do the time don't commit the crime.

That doesn't help anyone. ZoS wants players to enjoy their content. I feel as a player, I should be able to enjoy them my preferred way, and not their forced way.
It's like, when you were young, being told to ride a bike without training wheels (and it's your first time). And everytime you fall off and get mad, your parents tell you to "get gud". That's bad parenting.
And instead of the kid learning from their mistakes, they give up.

Umm,..I was given my first bike and learned to ride on ice an snow,without training wheels.
It wasnt bad parenting,just telling me that no one is going to help me but me,and I should learn that.I did just fine. :}
BUT,..I am with you about this in one aspect.That small comment didnt help.Having said that,they cant make the guards change for one person to another.One likes them hard to kill,.others dont want that.It would be a rough mess to try and sort out.

I would like to add to this that good parents make clear to their children, that most things in life do not come easy and you have to put in effort over quite some time to be successful with anything. Another vital fact to learn is, others are not responsible for your failures, you are. Children are quite capable of figuring out something like riding a bike by themselves - most parents of mountain bikers and crash course bikers are not good bikers themselves - their kids have learnt it on their very own.

Good parents teach their children, that they can achieve everything - if they are not just excited about it, but also put in the effort and do their very best to achieve it. The difference between an achiever and a dreamer is sustained effort put in to achieve it.

Perfect add on.Thank you,Lysette.

Volkodav · March 2016

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't want to be mean, but seriously this is a learn to play issue. It's really easy to escape guards. It's really easy to avoid guards. They were nerfed in the TG patch to make it easy for everyone. I can't believe this is an issue.

No, there are many quests in this game where there is a stationary guard placed right next to the quest giver.

Sometimes you can make this guard chase you, then as soon as they leash, quickly get on your horse, use Rapid Maneuvers and beat him back to the quest giver in time to quickly activate the dialogue and start the quest or turn it in just before the guard gets back and kills you. However, in some areas it is almost impossible, especially interior locations, because you can't open doors while in combat.

Don't you recall at one time we were encouraged that the justice system would be opening up a new form of gameplay, PVP between player guards and player criminals. There are many ESO players who racked up such high bounty at that time in order to play on the criminal side, that their character is a permanent criminal. Once you get over 30 million bounty, it's never going away. It would take 7 years or so if you just waited for it, anyways we chose the life of a criminal.

Although the Justice System PVP was canceled, it could still be fun and a bit more in the sandbox spirit of previous TES games if the guards were something like extremely tough bosses. For me it would be a lot more fun to take on a guard with a group of fellow criminals than to do the veteran dungeon pledge, etc. Making the guards 100% invincible feels a bit cheap, like we are being railroaded into paying off the bounty.

I don't mind the challenge of sneaking around guards to get to the respec shrine or only having access to guild bank / guild traders in Coldharbour and Cyrodiil, even getting killed occasionally during the pledge of mara, etc., but it appears to be impossible to start the crafting writ quests and certain skill point quests because the quest giver is in an interior location with multiple guards standing right next to them.

Maybe the new thieves guild passive will make it possible to talk to one of these quest givers once per day after the guard lets you go free?

Actually,once the guards kill you,your bounty goes to 0.So go to a refuge,fence your good stuff,and walk up to a guard and let him kill you.
I've done it whenever I dont want to pay the bounty.

Korah_Eaglecry · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

you say run , but then the guard just spams root on you endlessly and you eventually run out of stamina from running and rolling out of the roots, then they just root you again and you are stuck there unable to do anything while you are being killed
i just think they shouldnt even have health bars if you are going to make them unkillable, and you shouldnt have them KILL YOU for stealing stuff. they should arrest you or something, like this is the most unimmersive thing in the entire game and totally is ruining my experience with the game. like this is the new big DLC expansion, but the guards are like the most lazy worthless thing about the DLC, like it probably took them 5 minutes to make them and like it seems they put absolutely no thought into them, to make them interesting or unique or smartly designed, its like the most basic terrible thing about the game so far for me

They dont kill you unless you run or you have a high enough bounty that youre considered 'dangerous'. Not every crime is that of theft. And the mechanic for the justice system isnt complex enough to differentiate between the different crimes. Hell even GTA has this issue and their game is completely based around crime.

I do agree the Guards should be killable but I believe they should be like World Bosses or stronger. They should be a challenge and force players to choose between fighting or getting the hell out of there. They can also up the guards respawn rate so that its another determent from killing the guards. Even making the guards deaths result in a stiff bounty. No ones going to want someone within their city limits that has a habit of killing guards. But I also understand why the guards are immortal. And thats because players would definitely look for ways to exploit killing guards.

They could always cut back on the rate of roots used. As often those are spammed into oblivion by the NPCs.

UrQuan · March 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't want to be mean, but seriously this is a learn to play issue. It's really easy to escape guards. It's really easy to avoid guards. They were nerfed in the TG patch to make it easy for everyone. I can't believe this is an issue.

No, there are many quests in this game where there is a stationary guard placed right next to the quest giver.

Sometimes you can make this guard chase you, then as soon as they leash, quickly get on your horse, use Rapid Maneuvers and beat him back to the quest giver in time to quickly activate the dialogue and start the quest or turn it in just before the guard gets back and kills you. However, in some areas it is almost impossible, especially interior locations, because you can't open doors while in combat.

Don't you recall at one time we were encouraged that the justice system would be opening up a new form of gameplay, PVP between player guards and player criminals. There are many ESO players who racked up such high bounty at that time in order to play on the criminal side, that their character is a permanent criminal. Once you get over 30 million bounty, it's never going away. It would take 7 years or so if you just waited for it, anyways we chose the life of a criminal.

Although the Justice System PVP was canceled, it could still be fun and a bit more in the sandbox spirit of previous TES games if the guards were something like extremely tough bosses. For me it would be a lot more fun to take on a guard with a group of fellow criminals than to do the veteran dungeon pledge, etc. Making the guards 100% invincible feels a bit cheap, like we are being railroaded into paying off the bounty.

I don't mind the challenge of sneaking around guards to get to the respec shrine or only having access to guild bank / guild traders in Coldharbour and Cyrodiil, even getting killed occasionally during the pledge of mara, etc., but it appears to be impossible to start the crafting writ quests and certain skill point quests because the quest giver is in an interior location with multiple guards standing right next to them.

Maybe the new thieves guild passive will make it possible to talk to one of these quest givers once per day after the guard lets you go free?

Actually,once the guards kill you,your bounty goes to 0.So go to a refuge,fence your good stuff,and walk up to a guard and let him kill you.
I've done it whenever I dont want to pay the bounty.

Um, your bounty only goes to zero when the guards kill you if they took enough gold from you to pay it off. So if you're carrying enough gold to pay off your bounty, they take it from you and your bounty goes to zero. If you're not carrying enough gold to pay it off, they take whatever you are carrying and you'll still have a bounty (although it will be lower by the amount of gold that they took from you). So you're not saving any gold at all by letting guards kill you.

Volkodav · March 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I don't want to be mean, but seriously this is a learn to play issue. It's really easy to escape guards. It's really easy to avoid guards. They were nerfed in the TG patch to make it easy for everyone. I can't believe this is an issue.

No, there are many quests in this game where there is a stationary guard placed right next to the quest giver.

Sometimes you can make this guard chase you, then as soon as they leash, quickly get on your horse, use Rapid Maneuvers and beat him back to the quest giver in time to quickly activate the dialogue and start the quest or turn it in just before the guard gets back and kills you. However, in some areas it is almost impossible, especially interior locations, because you can't open doors while in combat.

Don't you recall at one time we were encouraged that the justice system would be opening up a new form of gameplay, PVP between player guards and player criminals. There are many ESO players who racked up such high bounty at that time in order to play on the criminal side, that their character is a permanent criminal. Once you get over 30 million bounty, it's never going away. It would take 7 years or so if you just waited for it, anyways we chose the life of a criminal.

Although the Justice System PVP was canceled, it could still be fun and a bit more in the sandbox spirit of previous TES games if the guards were something like extremely tough bosses. For me it would be a lot more fun to take on a guard with a group of fellow criminals than to do the veteran dungeon pledge, etc. Making the guards 100% invincible feels a bit cheap, like we are being railroaded into paying off the bounty.

I don't mind the challenge of sneaking around guards to get to the respec shrine or only having access to guild bank / guild traders in Coldharbour and Cyrodiil, even getting killed occasionally during the pledge of mara, etc., but it appears to be impossible to start the crafting writ quests and certain skill point quests because the quest giver is in an interior location with multiple guards standing right next to them.

Maybe the new thieves guild passive will make it possible to talk to one of these quest givers once per day after the guard lets you go free?

Actually,once the guards kill you,your bounty goes to 0.So go to a refuge,fence your good stuff,and walk up to a guard and let him kill you.
I've done it whenever I dont want to pay the bounty.

Um, your bounty only goes to zero when the guards kill you if they took enough gold from you to pay it off. So if you're carrying enough gold to pay off your bounty, they take it from you and your bounty goes to zero. If you're not carrying enough gold to pay it off, they take whatever you are carrying and you'll still have a bounty (although it will be lower by the amount of gold that they took from you). So you're not saving any gold at all by letting guards kill you.

Really? I did not know that. Ooo.That has to be rough on those with seriously high bounties.I'm glad I never get over 6 or 7 hundred gold.

kratier · May 2016

just got back into this game and came here to bump this, because your guard system is still completely infuriating and terrible in every way. i hope you intend to improve the justice system for dark brotherhood, and not just put it in the back burner along with the 500 other game breaking issues your game currently has.

shayne.bakerb14a_ESO · May 2016

I'm placing a bump as well, I can't believe there are so many annoying comment posters here with the Dark Souls "git gud" mentality. No one is asking to be able to kill them, no one is asking to be invulnerable to them, the main issue (mine included) is with the constant spam of rooting. I was stuck in the Mage's Guild and rooted until death, mind you I was pulled out of the door I had just exited hastily, thanks to a random guard spawn on the ground floor. Seriously this current "Justice" system is a pure lazily made pathetic waste of time.

When you have to use indomitable skills and the like to escape a standard guard, then the game immersion has failed. Personally I would have rather Zenimax didn't even bother and had just kept all steal-able items as level set pieces and unable to be interacted with. There's just no point to try to be a thief when the system hates you almost as much as Destiny hates social players.

rootimus · May 2016

I'm all for the justice system being more of a challenge, but un-killable guards are just lazy design.