Spacemonkey wrote: »

Well the fact that it's passives mostly only act as perks for PvE makes it more of a <Legerdermain> skill line. Also the skills would be locked for people that don't have the DLC.

I think it's why - I also agree with it. Balance is a very touchy subject in the game atm. Would I love to see more active skills, sure. (allthough fixing the still broken ones would be nice first) - With the current state of the game though I'm happy they played it safe with this one. Maybe DB will have some : )

its been a touchy subject for two years and i dont think they will ever fix stamina and heavy armor. Pretty sure their core design wont allow them too

Well thanks to both of you for validating my addition of Balance being touchy

I said there was probs no active abilities because it would be locked behind the DLC*

*please read in an echoing booming voice

notimetocare wrote: »

Not the first to say it, but ill go more in depth. DLC should never be required for a skill line. GEar should not be locked behind DLC either, but they need to have some incentive for people to buy the DLC. Skill lines are far more important than specific sets (many that dont even get used or have good alternatives), so it is the lesser of two evils.

Hold on a second here . I pay a sub monthly and in all honesty i would pay for a DLC on top of that. So we should not get meaningful content because people do not want o pay for the game to emerge and develop ? That is absloutely silly and exactly why i was really discouraged when the game went B2P

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Not the first to say it, but ill go more in depth. DLC should never be required for a skill line. GEar should not be locked behind DLC either, but they need to have some incentive for people to buy the DLC. Skill lines are far more important than specific sets (many that dont even get used or have good alternatives), so it is the lesser of two evils.

Hold on a second here . I pay a sub monthly and in all honesty i would pay for a DLC on top of that. So we should not get meaningful content because people do not want o pay for the game to emerge and develop ? That is absloutely silly and exactly why i was really discouraged when the game went B2P

But it did go b2p. I didn't like it either but it's what I have to live with. Locking skill lines with "active" skills behind dlc would be a terrible idea, and trust me, I normally have no sympathy for those that don't purchase dlc's. The stamina love you and I are looking for is supposed to come with the DB update. This new skill line, is more along the lines of the legerdemain tree, and serves as more of a qol, immersion boosting line, for those who wanted more from thieving in this game. I have no problem with it. Any skill lines with active skills they come along, should be added to the base game for all.

I have a strong suspicion that there will be active skills for the Thieves Guild when they think of something or feel it is balanced enough to add to the game. The reason I believe this is that like Undaunted, Thieves Guild keeps levelling past the point of usefulness, making them 'filler' skill levels. This is just my guess on the matter, but it seems a reasonable guess.

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

I've been subbing since launch and still don't think they should lock active skill lines behind dlc. It's just not good practice. It's hand in hand with how other mmo's lock skill lines, new races and classes, and gear behind the dlc pay wall. As I said, I have no sympathy for the guy who whines because he can't do the new dungeon or walk around in the new zone without buying dlc, but I can sympathize with a new player starting out, who can't even get a good feel for the game and all the skills/classes because they're locked behind a pay wall. This person hasn't even had time to get his feet wet in the vanilla game he just purchased and you're asking him to buy dlc to experience a core game function.

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

At present, no competitive build required more than class and champ points because they've handled adding new skills correctly. If say the thieves guild released and it had some sort of minor form of Cloak, that made you invisible yet the drawback was something like any buffs or damage brings you out of cloak, and it lasts 6 seconds. A skill like that would almost be an instant staple of EVERY pvp build, and it's locked behind a 20 dollar pay wall. So suddenly the game I love and have enjoyed playing, and occasionally gave money to good ideas is now telling me "give me 20 if you want to compete". That leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, and if that is the future the MMO is going to go in, no thanks you've lost any other potential money from me. Which is why crafted armor sets work even with DLC. I can't go to wrothgar and make it myself without the DLC, but someone else can go in my place and make it, and I pay them in-game for the work done. I still get the items needed to be competitive, but I didnt HAVE to give them money to do so, which is what keeps a playerbase around and active.

If you don't like PVP, the PVPers can do the work for you, and you have the option of just paying them in-game for the items you want. You are not forced into PVPing. It is an option for you if you dont want to pay them... it works much the same as the crafting does. It's why we now see the monster sets available for purchase. It's the correct way to handle that sort of thing without isolating or dividing the playerbase between who is willing to pay them real money and who is not.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

At present, no competitive build required more than class and champ points because they've handled adding new skills correctly. If say the thieves guild released and it had some sort of minor form of Cloak, that made you invisible yet the drawback was something like any buffs or damage brings you out of cloak, and it lasts 6 seconds. A skill like that would almost be an instant staple of EVERY pvp build, and it's locked behind a 20 dollar pay wall. So suddenly the game I love and have enjoyed playing, and occasionally gave money to good ideas is now telling me "give me 20 if you want to compete". That leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, and if that is the future the MMO is going to go in, no thanks you've lost any other potential money from me. Which is why crafted armor sets work even with DLC. I can't go to wrothgar and make it myself without the DLC, but someone else can go in my place and make it, and I pay them in-game for the work done. I still get the items needed to be competitive, but I didnt HAVE to give them money to do so, which is what keeps a playerbase around and active.

If you don't like PVP, the PVPers can do the work for you, and you have the option of just paying them in-game for the items you want. You are not forced into PVPing. It is an option for you if you dont want to pay them... it works much the same as the crafting does. It's why we now see the monster sets available for purchase. It's the correct way to handle that sort of thing without isolating or dividing the playerbase between who is willing to pay them real money and who is not.

Then dont put the guilds in the new content i dont give a flying F, obviously you didnt follow the game pre launch and listen to all their interviews stating those guilds would be part of the core game . They promised these two guilds would be in with in 90 days of launch shortly after craglorn. honestly TG and DB should not be attached to a DLC. but the point is the content is bull crap ,and simply because you dont PVE is no excuse to defend the crappy regurgitated content.

Getting a little aggressive there... I did in fact follow the game since pre launch, back when they would release concept art and ask fans "is this ok? would this be good?" The better option for them would have been to give everyone access to a new skill line regardless if they bought the DLC but then that leads back to a balancing issue. I'm, not defending anything I'm explaining the business model they are using and why its not in their best interest to cater to people who already give them money.

Sorry was not meaning to be aat the ggressive. At the 24 month mark even a small start up studio like Trion managed to give as much content away in 6 months . Then Zos has charged for in two years. While balancing 16 classes and having dynamic content that makes dark anchors look like a 10 year old designed

Do you REALLY want this game to have ACTIVE abilities that are PAID FOR ?
...really?
seriously?

...god damm...
this is teh first mmorpg you play?

RebornV3x wrote: »

They would never give an active skill line out with paid DLC cause everyone would cry its P2W so it would have to be free but I would like them to balance the abilities they already have first.

Can we realistically expect that balance will ever actually be achieved?

I don't think we can.

I remember when Zen themselves said its important to add new skills to the game, to fight the grind-exhaustion, more variety, longer players play, that was the deal, but why there isnt nothing after 2 year unless that team is working on Expansion. Or if there isnt Expansions coming, then Thief DLC is officially the beginning of the end for this game.