New DLC no new active abilites for the new Guilds?

Wifeaggro13

I think this is a horrible mistake, not giving new Guild abilities like Fighters, mages , and undaunted have. Thieves guild and Dark brotherhood should have active skill lines in them, strictly useless passives? thats not really emerging game play. This was a perfect opportunity to aid in balancing the stamina builds. ZOS do you have any plans in adding new active skill lines Via new weapons or class . I am baffled that you would go this direction with these DLC's the content in the last 2 is very poor. No new dungeons throw some passives and another completely solo zone. almost as if your trying to chase more subscribers off

Spacemonkey

Well the fact that it's passives mostly only act as perks for PvE makes it more of a <Legerdermain> skill line. Also the skills would be locked for people that don't have the DLC.

I think it's why - I also agree with it.

+ 'Balance' is a very touchy subject in the game atm. Would I love to see more active skills, sure. (allthough fixing the still broken ones would be nice first) - With the current state of the game though I'm happy they played it safe with this one. Maybe DB will have some : )

*edited format because seeing the word 'balance' typed seemed to cause -flustering-, that's right, flustering.

Wifeaggro13

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Well the fact that it's passives mostly only act as perks for PvE makes it more of a <Legerdermain> skill line. Also the skills would be locked for people that don't have the DLC.

I think it's why - I also agree with it. Balance is a very touchy subject in the game atm. Would I love to see more active skills, sure. (allthough fixing the still broken ones would be nice first) - With the current state of the game though I'm happy they played it safe with this one. Maybe DB will have some : )

its been a touchy subject for two years and i dont think they will ever fix stamina and heavy armor. Pretty sure their core design wont allow them too

KingDuncanVII

This discussion of balance is all subjective. You know why ESO will never be balanced? Because everyone has their own idea of what balance in ESO is.

Spacemonkey

Well thanks to both of you for validating my addition of Balance being touchy

I said there was probs no active abilities because it would be locked behind the DLC*

*please read in an echoing booming voice

notimetocare

Not the first to say it, but ill go more in depth. DLC should never be required for a skill line. GEar should not be locked behind DLC either, but they need to have some incentive for people to buy the DLC. Skill lines are far more important than specific sets (many that dont even get used or have good alternatives), so it is the lesser of two evils.

Wifeaggro13

notimetocare wrote: »

Not the first to say it, but ill go more in depth. DLC should never be required for a skill line. GEar should not be locked behind DLC either, but they need to have some incentive for people to buy the DLC. Skill lines are far more important than specific sets (many that dont even get used or have good alternatives), so it is the lesser of two evils.

Hold on a second here . I pay a sub monthly and in all honesty i would pay for a DLC on top of that. So we should not get meaningful content because people do not want o pay for the game to emerge and develop ? That is absloutely silly and exactly why i was really discouraged when the game went B2P

Wifeaggro13

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Well thanks to both of you for validating my addition of Balance being touchy

I said there was probs no active abilities because it would be locked behind the DLC*

*please read in an echoing booming voice

That is silly its exactly why i dont like F2P mmos or B2P . Dont cater to the ones who dont pay cater to the ones that do . smarter buisness. I think it has nothing to do whith it being locked behind a paywall . I am pretty sure it was just far to much work and would cut into them churning out these weak sauce DLC's with no meaningful emerging content. just paste up a new area which is soloable requires no mechanics or thought to the encounters and collect our 15 bucks

Callous2208

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Not the first to say it, but ill go more in depth. DLC should never be required for a skill line. GEar should not be locked behind DLC either, but they need to have some incentive for people to buy the DLC. Skill lines are far more important than specific sets (many that dont even get used or have good alternatives), so it is the lesser of two evils.

Hold on a second here . I pay a sub monthly and in all honesty i would pay for a DLC on top of that. So we should not get meaningful content because people do not want o pay for the game to emerge and develop ? That is absloutely silly and exactly why i was really discouraged when the game went B2P

But it did go b2p. I didn't like it either but it's what I have to live with. Locking skill lines with "active" skills behind dlc would be a terrible idea, and trust me, I normally have no sympathy for those that don't purchase dlc's. The stamina love you and I are looking for is supposed to come with the DB update. This new skill line, is more along the lines of the legerdemain tree, and serves as more of a qol, immersion boosting line, for those who wanted more from thieving in this game. I have no problem with it. Any skill lines with active skills they come along, should be added to the base game for all.

catalyst10e

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Well thanks to both of you for validating my addition of Balance being touchy

I said there was probs no active abilities because it would be locked behind the DLC*

*please read in an echoing booming voice

That is silly its exactly why i dont like F2P mmos or B2P . Dont cater to the ones who dont pay cater to the ones that do . smarter buisness. I think it has nothing to do whith it being locked behind a paywall . I am pretty sure it was just far to much work and would cut into them churning out these weak sauce DLC's with no meaningful emerging content. just paste up a new area which is soloable requires no mechanics or thought to the encounters and collect our 15 bucks

The idea is to appeal to a wider audience. While YOU are a constant source of income, they have no reason to appeal to you, because as far as they are concerned they already have your money. You have used your wallet to say "This is adequate, please continue." So there's no other reason to persuade you from your money. They care about tricking convincing those who have not yet handed any other additional money over... Part of what can stop someone from handing over money is when they feel they will only be able to compete or enjoy the game every time they hand over money. For example I enjoy the PVP of this game, will I HAVE to hand over 20-30 dollars on each DLC just so I can remain competitive even tho the rest of the PVE content doesnt appeal to me? How long will the game be doing this? What would stop them from forcing me to pay for the no lag server access? So then I move on to a different game, and they lose whatever potential amount I could have given them via crown store costume, future DLC content, etc etc. It's just a fine line that needs to be walked where they dont make it look like the "true" game requires additional money, especially when so much of their competition seems to be successful at it

dodgehopper_ESO

I have a strong suspicion that there will be active skills for the Thieves Guild when they think of something or feel it is balanced enough to add to the game. The reason I believe this is that like Undaunted, Thieves Guild keeps levelling past the point of usefulness, making them 'filler' skill levels. This is just my guess on the matter, but it seems a reasonable guess.

Callous2208

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I have a strong suspicion that there will be active skills for the Thieves Guild when they think of something or feel it is balanced enough to add to the game. The reason I believe this is that like Undaunted, Thieves Guild keeps levelling past the point of usefulness, making them 'filler' skill levels. This is just my guess on the matter, but it seems a reasonable guess.

Good point and one I had not considered.

Wifeaggro13

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

catalyst10e

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

Callous2208

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

I've been subbing since launch and still don't think they should lock active skill lines behind dlc. It's just not good practice. It's hand in hand with how other mmo's lock skill lines, new races and classes, and gear behind the dlc pay wall. As I said, I have no sympathy for the guy who whines because he can't do the new dungeon or walk around in the new zone without buying dlc, but I can sympathize with a new player starting out, who can't even get a good feel for the game and all the skills/classes because they're locked behind a pay wall. This person hasn't even had time to get his feet wet in the vanilla game he just purchased and you're asking him to buy dlc to experience a core game function.

Whatzituyah

Well in my opinion active skills behind a pay wall is a big no no aswell as races being on other alliances and imperial race yet what do we have?

Wifeaggro13

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

dodgehopper_ESO

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Well in my opinion active skills behind a pay wall is a big no no aswell as races being on other alliances and imperial race yet what do we have?

The Imperial race isn't really all that amazing really. In my opinion Orc is better in just about every possible way. Sure the Orc has a little less Stamina and a little less health, but makes up for it with a slammin +weapon bonus and sprint speed/cost redux and the Robust trait which is far and above better than Red Diamond (one of the worst traits in the game). I'll grant Red Diamond was pretty awesome when I could chuck caltrops on an army and get constant self heals. You can't do that now, and so its honestly not that great. Robust is reliable and doesn't require a specific type of combat to take advantage of. So for anyone who says Imperial is amazing, go play an Orc, its probably better at least for Weapon builds.

If you want to play a mage then I would argue Altmer/Breton/Dunmer are superior.

I played an Imperial just because I liked the style and the way it dovetails into the story. I have only one Imperial because I don't think they are as amazing as people let on.

catalyst10e

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

At present, no competitive build required more than class and champ points because they've handled adding new skills correctly. If say the thieves guild released and it had some sort of minor form of Cloak, that made you invisible yet the drawback was something like any buffs or damage brings you out of cloak, and it lasts 6 seconds. A skill like that would almost be an instant staple of EVERY pvp build, and it's locked behind a 20 dollar pay wall. So suddenly the game I love and have enjoyed playing, and occasionally gave money to good ideas is now telling me "give me 20 if you want to compete". That leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, and if that is the future the MMO is going to go in, no thanks you've lost any other potential money from me. Which is why crafted armor sets work even with DLC. I can't go to wrothgar and make it myself without the DLC, but someone else can go in my place and make it, and I pay them in-game for the work done. I still get the items needed to be competitive, but I didnt HAVE to give them money to do so, which is what keeps a playerbase around and active.

If you don't like PVP, the PVPers can do the work for you, and you have the option of just paying them in-game for the items you want. You are not forced into PVPing. It is an option for you if you dont want to pay them... it works much the same as the crafting does. It's why we now see the monster sets available for purchase. It's the correct way to handle that sort of thing without isolating or dividing the playerbase between who is willing to pay them real money and who is not.

JD2013

Because if they did, people around here would scream "pay to win."

People here get very touchy very easily.

Artis

Don't they have 4% bonus to melee damage? Which means they aren't better for archers and they aren't better for tanks?
They also aren't better if you spam a class skill as your main dps skill (say, surprise attacks or jabs).
Or am I missing something?

Wifeaggro13

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

At present, no competitive build required more than class and champ points because they've handled adding new skills correctly. If say the thieves guild released and it had some sort of minor form of Cloak, that made you invisible yet the drawback was something like any buffs or damage brings you out of cloak, and it lasts 6 seconds. A skill like that would almost be an instant staple of EVERY pvp build, and it's locked behind a 20 dollar pay wall. So suddenly the game I love and have enjoyed playing, and occasionally gave money to good ideas is now telling me "give me 20 if you want to compete". That leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, and if that is the future the MMO is going to go in, no thanks you've lost any other potential money from me. Which is why crafted armor sets work even with DLC. I can't go to wrothgar and make it myself without the DLC, but someone else can go in my place and make it, and I pay them in-game for the work done. I still get the items needed to be competitive, but I didnt HAVE to give them money to do so, which is what keeps a playerbase around and active.

If you don't like PVP, the PVPers can do the work for you, and you have the option of just paying them in-game for the items you want. You are not forced into PVPing. It is an option for you if you dont want to pay them... it works much the same as the crafting does. It's why we now see the monster sets available for purchase. It's the correct way to handle that sort of thing without isolating or dividing the playerbase between who is willing to pay them real money and who is not.

Then dont put the guilds in the new content i dont give a flying F, obviously you didnt follow the game pre launch and listen to all their interviews stating those guilds would be part of the core game . They promised these two guilds would be in with in 90 days of launch shortly after craglorn. honestly TG and DB should not be attached to a DLC. but the point is the content is bull crap ,and simply because you dont PVE is no excuse to defend the crappy regurgitated content.

catalyst10e

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

It does not matter your not subbing anyhow your not paying anything. Nor or you buying the dlc for the PVE your not giving them a dime why should they care if they lose you

Because it's their job and in their best interest to convince me to pay for something. You gave them your money already and continue to do so. They've got you. I paid them for the game which was my way of saying "I'm interested" So then they come out with items like pets and costumes (which I do buy costumes) items like motifs and xp potions. These are designed to appease not just the ones who pay them monthly (by looking like its additional content) but to also attract those who haven't yet paid them monthly, and might be a bit more casual with their play time. I've got a kid and a family, I'm not on enough to justify the 65 initial price tag and then a monthly fee, on top of all the DLC. Should I be locked out entirely thus they never even get my initial 65? Or should They entice me into tossing them some money when new costumes come out, or items that help me level faster so I can keep up even in my limited play schedule.

no competitve build has ever required more then your class Champ points, and maybe a couple weapon skills. The argument is the same when they started putting the best gear behind PVP . i do not enjoy pvp as more then a passing thing ive done maybe a handful of times yet i was forced to do it and purchase the IC so i could aquire competitive PVE gear and the emperor bonus and master weapons were all linked to this activity and purchasing the IC DLC. I have 3 kids a job that requires 50 hours a week minimum . Though i respect your opinion and situation i think it has very little to do with why they made this DLC the way it is. Simply so they can keep vomiting up this content at 15 bucks a DLC that is basically a water sandwich . and not have to put any real development into it just make a new zone add a couple of passives that don't affect anything. you get DLC's free when you subscribe by the way

At present, no competitive build required more than class and champ points because they've handled adding new skills correctly. If say the thieves guild released and it had some sort of minor form of Cloak, that made you invisible yet the drawback was something like any buffs or damage brings you out of cloak, and it lasts 6 seconds. A skill like that would almost be an instant staple of EVERY pvp build, and it's locked behind a 20 dollar pay wall. So suddenly the game I love and have enjoyed playing, and occasionally gave money to good ideas is now telling me "give me 20 if you want to compete". That leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, and if that is the future the MMO is going to go in, no thanks you've lost any other potential money from me. Which is why crafted armor sets work even with DLC. I can't go to wrothgar and make it myself without the DLC, but someone else can go in my place and make it, and I pay them in-game for the work done. I still get the items needed to be competitive, but I didnt HAVE to give them money to do so, which is what keeps a playerbase around and active.

If you don't like PVP, the PVPers can do the work for you, and you have the option of just paying them in-game for the items you want. You are not forced into PVPing. It is an option for you if you dont want to pay them... it works much the same as the crafting does. It's why we now see the monster sets available for purchase. It's the correct way to handle that sort of thing without isolating or dividing the playerbase between who is willing to pay them real money and who is not.

Then dont put the guilds in the new content i dont give a flying F, obviously you didnt follow the game pre launch and listen to all their interviews stating those guilds would be part of the core game . They promised these two guilds would be in with in 90 days of launch shortly after craglorn. honestly TG and DB should not be attached to a DLC. but the point is the content is bull crap ,and simply because you dont PVE is no excuse to defend the crappy regurgitated content.

Getting a little aggressive there... I did in fact follow the game since pre launch, back when they would release concept art and ask fans "is this ok? would this be good?" The better option for them would have been to give everyone access to a new skill line regardless if they bought the DLC but then that leads back to a balancing issue. I'm, not defending anything I'm explaining the business model they are using and why its not in their best interest to cater to people who already give them money.

Gidorick

I completely agree OP...

Wifeaggro13

Sorry was not meaning to be aat the ggressive. At the 24 month mark even a small start up studio like Trion managed to give as much content away in 6 months . Then Zos has charged for in two years. While balancing 16 classes and having dynamic content that makes dark anchors look like a 10 year old designed

runagate

Does the Thieves Guild passive that makes it harder for Guards and other NPCs to notice you also work on Cyrodiil NPCs? Could you imagine if you could come within 100 yards of a corner sorc or resource without being in combat for 10 minutes?

Lenikus

Do you REALLY want this game to have ACTIVE abilities that are PAID FOR ?
...really?
seriously?

...god damm...
this is teh first mmorpg you play?

RebornV3x

They would never give an active skill line out with paid DLC cause everyone would cry its P2W so it would have to be free but I would like them to balance the abilities they already have first.

Gidorick

RebornV3x wrote: »

They would never give an active skill line out with paid DLC cause everyone would cry its P2W so it would have to be free but I would like them to balance the abilities they already have first.

Can we realistically expect that balance will ever actually be achieved?

I don't think we can.

swirve

KingDuncanVII wrote: »

This discussion of balance is all subjective. You know why ESO will never be balanced? Because everyone has their own idea of what balance in ESO is.

Indeed. Though some imbalance is easy to see (game stats) and for the main non biased playets to agree.

Finding non biased players is harder than finding imbalances.

Sausage

I remember when Zen themselves said its important to add new skills to the game, to fight the grind-exhaustion, more variety, longer players play, that was the deal, but why there isnt nothing after 2 year unless that team is working on Expansion. Or if there isnt Expansions coming, then Thief DLC is officially the beginning of the end for this game.