You just don't have the BiS arrows yet...

When I can get those exploding arrows from the Ebonhart Golden Jack quest to work with any bow and against any target, I'll consider learning how to use bows, assuming they hit for 20000 or more fire damage.

Bows.... Yes they need improvement to their sustain. I completely agree. Burst tho.... I think that is good enough lol. I rather not take more damage from focused shots then I already am.

The change to CP adding poison to Mighty and changing Thermaturge to DOT damage buffed bow damage quite a bit. The Hawkeye change also buffed Bow damage quite a bit. Bow's should be in a great spot right now especially if you run a NB at least for PVE dps. There are some problems with the action of Arrow Spray and the range on Arrow Barrage but overall Bow's are sitting pretty well at the moment.

Assuming 100 points into mighty the change to the star means a 25% boost to Poison Arrow and morphs, given 30 or so points into Thermaturge and that is another 10% boost, then the Hawkeye buff stacked is another 15%. That is a 50% boost to Poison Injection's output and it was already a solid execute DOT. Arrow Barrage already had good numbers(great numbers if you have vMA bow), and it should get a 25% boost from same changes. Then consider that Snipe(most archers primary skill) also received 15% from Hawkeye.

Bow's are in a good place given those changes at least for PVE, if not for PVP. Scatter shot is weak but every weapon line has weak skills. I still think the bow tree does not perform well for PVP outside of ganking or providing support for a group, however we got a much needed buff with these changes.

Bows are gankalicious. Gimme Yo Stones!

I love using a bow! It's not an easy way to play for sure. I die a lot in both PVE and PVP. But I like flinging arrows!

i think i'm gonna switch to dual wield

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I love my openings with heavy attack poison injection. And being able to escape with the speed boost. And focused aim is so god damn OP that I stay away from it.

If focused aim is OP then lethal arrow is beast, wrecking blow is destroyer of planets, and don't get me even started on overload because it's on Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann* level.

*Giant robot from anime of same title big enough to use GALAXIES as throwing weapons.

Alchemist + crit cloak + 200% crit dmg = Good fight.

olsborg wrote: »

Bow does have some issues imo, its not that viable to run other then a support weapon to your 2h or dw etc. Unless you wanna be a sniper who will die as soon as people find out where you are.

Real snipers have far superior range and power to regular even military-grade firearms it's not even fun to compare.
Most sniper rifles are capable to kill target behind wall.
While from balance issues bow can't be this powerful, our "snipe" is laughable in comparison with projectile so slow (and clearly visible AND loud in case of focused aim) that it's next to impossible to hit player who is aware that you are trying to snipe him and knows how to dodge (read: anyone).

And you can snipe down in first place only totally unaware caught off-guard players in light/medium without sustain. Any PvP player (who knows basic PVP behavior) after initial hit will break and roll making himself immune for that 2 snipes that are already in the air. And if he isn't total scrub, he will find you and then kill you.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

vontariel wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Bow does have some issues imo, its not that viable to run other then a support weapon to your 2h or dw etc. Unless you wanna be a sniper who will die as soon as people find out where you are.

Real snipers have far superior range and power to regular even military-grade firearms it's not even fun to compare.
Most sniper rifles are capable to kill target behind wall.
While from balance issues bow can't be this powerful, our "snipe" is laughable in comparison with projectile so slow (and clearly visible AND loud in case of focused aim) that it's next to impossible to hit player who is aware that you are trying to snipe him and knows how to dodge (read: anyone).

And you can snipe down in first place only totally unaware caught off-guard players in light/medium without sustain. Any PvP player (who knows basic PVP behavior) after initial hit will break and roll making himself immune for that 2 snipes that are already in the air. And if he isn't total scrub, he will find you and then kill you.

Your comparing a bow to a modern sniper rifle xD

In the context of a fantasy mmorpg...

Every thought about doing something like ccing them before you snipe them?

Or hey just snipe them from 60m away and watch they waste resources blocking/dodging before there even in range of you.

Either way there more to bow than snipe.

Both, in modern and medieval setting precision ranged weapons are tools to eliminate enemy from larger than regular combat distance. Crossbows were even banned by pope to use against knights for being TOO powerful. Longbow was key to victory in many medieval battles (check battle of hastings for refference).

And as i written in previous comment: It's logical from balance point that bows CAN'T be this powerful, current bow power is far too low and it's too easy to counter it. And FYI bow range for most skills is 35m. With focused aim and cyro buffs you can reach something similar or little higher than 45m. And superior range gap can be closed in immunity granted by single dodge roll (for casters to reach their casting range, and for melee to reach charge range), and then archer is just a dead meat, because every other damage build can outdamage archer with ease.
Of course scrubs don't break stun from hide and receive additional attack or went into panic mode. But killing scrubs is non-issue with any weapon/build.

Also name me one range CC that bow user have, that will last long enough to cast snipe, for it to travel, and not be CC breaked before that time. Apart of course stealth attack stun.

vontariel wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

vontariel wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Bow does have some issues imo, its not that viable to run other then a support weapon to your 2h or dw etc. Unless you wanna be a sniper who will die as soon as people find out where you are.

Real snipers have far superior range and power to regular even military-grade firearms it's not even fun to compare.
Most sniper rifles are capable to kill target behind wall.
While from balance issues bow can't be this powerful, our "snipe" is laughable in comparison with projectile so slow (and clearly visible AND loud in case of focused aim) that it's next to impossible to hit player who is aware that you are trying to snipe him and knows how to dodge (read: anyone).

And you can snipe down in first place only totally unaware caught off-guard players in light/medium without sustain. Any PvP player (who knows basic PVP behavior) after initial hit will break and roll making himself immune for that 2 snipes that are already in the air. And if he isn't total scrub, he will find you and then kill you.

Your comparing a bow to a modern sniper rifle xD

In the context of a fantasy mmorpg...

Every thought about doing something like ccing them before you snipe them?

Or hey just snipe them from 60m away and watch they waste resources blocking/dodging before there even in range of you.

Either way there more to bow than snipe.

Both, in modern and medieval setting precision ranged weapons are tools to eliminate enemy from larger than regular combat distance. Crossbows were even banned by pope to use against knights for being TOO powerful. Longbow was key to victory in many medieval battles (check battle of hastings for refference).

And as i written in previous comment: It's logical from balance point that bows CAN'T be this powerful, current bow power is far too low and it's too easy to counter it. And FYI bow range for most skills is 35m. With focused aim and cyro buffs you can reach something similar or little higher than 45m. And superior range gap can be closed in immunity granted by single dodge roll (for casters to reach their casting range, and for melee to reach charge range), and then archer is just a dead meat, because every other damage build can outdamage archer with ease.
Of course scrubs don't break stun from hide and receive additional attack or went into panic mode. But killing scrubs is non-issue with any weapon/build.

Also name me one range CC that bow user have, that will last long enough to cast snipe, for it to travel, and not be CC breaked before that time. Apart of course stealth attack stun.

Use snipe, use fossilise.

Spam bombard, it's very effective vs magicka users.

Magnum shot + snipe.

People can break out of everything even before people cast and instant skill.

Snipe has a travel time you can cast it first then cc and it will hit. It's similar to dark flare, use flare then gap close in with the stun and the gap close + flare will hit at the same time.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

vontariel wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

vontariel wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Bow does have some issues imo, its not that viable to run other then a support weapon to your 2h or dw etc. Unless you wanna be a sniper who will die as soon as people find out where you are.

Real snipers have far superior range and power to regular even military-grade firearms it's not even fun to compare.
Most sniper rifles are capable to kill target behind wall.
While from balance issues bow can't be this powerful, our "snipe" is laughable in comparison with projectile so slow (and clearly visible AND loud in case of focused aim) that it's next to impossible to hit player who is aware that you are trying to snipe him and knows how to dodge (read: anyone).

And you can snipe down in first place only totally unaware caught off-guard players in light/medium without sustain. Any PvP player (who knows basic PVP behavior) after initial hit will break and roll making himself immune for that 2 snipes that are already in the air. And if he isn't total scrub, he will find you and then kill you.

Your comparing a bow to a modern sniper rifle xD

In the context of a fantasy mmorpg...

Every thought about doing something like ccing them before you snipe them?

Or hey just snipe them from 60m away and watch they waste resources blocking/dodging before there even in range of you.

Either way there more to bow than snipe.

Both, in modern and medieval setting precision ranged weapons are tools to eliminate enemy from larger than regular combat distance. Crossbows were even banned by pope to use against knights for being TOO powerful. Longbow was key to victory in many medieval battles (check battle of hastings for refference).

And as i written in previous comment: It's logical from balance point that bows CAN'T be this powerful, current bow power is far too low and it's too easy to counter it. And FYI bow range for most skills is 35m. With focused aim and cyro buffs you can reach something similar or little higher than 45m. And superior range gap can be closed in immunity granted by single dodge roll (for casters to reach their casting range, and for melee to reach charge range), and then archer is just a dead meat, because every other damage build can outdamage archer with ease.
Of course scrubs don't break stun from hide and receive additional attack or went into panic mode. But killing scrubs is non-issue with any weapon/build.

Also name me one range CC that bow user have, that will last long enough to cast snipe, for it to travel, and not be CC breaked before that time. Apart of course stealth attack stun.

Use snipe, use fossilise.

Spam bombard, it's very effective vs magicka users.

Magnum shot + snipe.

People can break out of everything even before people cast and instant skill.

Snipe has a travel time you can cast it first then cc and it will hit. It's similar to dark flare, use flare then gap close in with the stun and the gap close + flare will hit at the same time.

Fossilize is DK specific so not every archer has access to it. Also it has short range, and coming short range is counter-productive for bow since we are cutting our own damage and put ourselves in risk position.
Spam bombard...bombard has *** damage, and after first one you'd have CC immunity. Also bombard has relatively short range so if i even see someone doing it is free frag anyway (in 1v1 or small combat scenario), because archer is open for opponent's heavy hitters such as overload/wrecking blow/RD/other. Also after first one rollout for immunity or even ignore it and dish tons of damage. Spam bombard. You don't play as archer, do you?

Magnum shot + snipe. Best advice ever. How it's supposed to work? I have to be really close (melee range) to cast magnum shot. Even if my enemy isnt cc immune, in first place, he will be after first magnum, charge me or simply walk into me, and spam kill me with animation cancelled wrecking blow even before i finish casting that snipe. I'm now sure you don't ever tried that idea. There's a reason why scatter shot is considered as one of worst (or THE worst) skills in game.

What you wrote can work against mobs in PvE, or total newbies not even against decent (not even considering good, great or elite) players.
Spam bombard is only valid tactic in zerg wars when lag is so high (500ms+) that noone can do anything reaction-based.

ADarklore wrote: »

Keep in mind that Eric Wroebel said that Bows shouldn't be able to do the same damage as melee weapons because bow users remain at range and out of danger, that's the trade-off. You want to stay safe, then you have to live with doing less damage... and I agree, even as a Bow user. So no, a Bow shouldn't be 'as viable' as other weapons because of this very fact... a Bow is intended to be used at range, and if you're trying to play a 'melee archer' then you're playing it wrong and will fail. Of course situations in the game don't always lend itself well to remaining at range, which is why we must also slot a decent melee weapon. Let's be realistic, even in our own history, most archers either had plenty of ground troops keeping them safe OR they also carried melee weapons for close combat if it came to that. Look at the Ninja, they carried a bow AND swords. So if you want to be a Bow-only player, then you should consider running only in groups... otherwise, look to carry a bow and a secondary melee weapon for close combat.

Also keep in mind that with the next major update, Stamina is going to receive a balance pass... this update was for Magicka, next is for Stamina. I agree with this decision because, as we've seen in the past, ZOS doesn't do well focusing on too many things at one time... so allowing the combat team to focus on one thing at a time is a very good idea. Players seem to think that ZOS has a huge team of developers, but the reality doesn't match their belief... it would surprise me if there were more than three or four members on the combat development team.

That principle might have been true in early stage of game. Much have changed since that.
Also it's general principle in game design for ranged DPS to be either lower, or much more fragile than their melee counterparts.

There is a reason why terms such a glass cannon, fragile speedster, mighty glacier, stone wall, squishy wizard (black, red, white), bruisier, hybrid (jack-of-all) exists and are often brought in balance discussions.
Range is weakness for melee and vice-versa.

Archer is typical glass cannon - big damage numbers, but very fragile. It's main (and often only) defence is superior range or limited escape tools like snares, or jump-out.
Rogue is typical fragile speedster. Superior mobility is main offence and defence tool (esp. with stealths, vanish, displacements, teleports), and paired with good CC and DMG, are more than enough to close the gap to glass cannon and break it. Usually have greatest burst damage in while setting.
In perfect balanced environment victory goes to one who could make tactical advantage via positioning or careful skill timing, but it would be usually DPS race to see which one breaks first.
2hand user is generally something like mighty glacier or bruisier. Both archetypes have big survivability paired with decent punch (but inferior to a glass cannon/fragile speedster). They usually around either crippling (bruisier) or overpowering (glacier) their opponents. Speed/positioning is their weak element.
Stonewall is typical tank, and it doesnt need further description.

This type of balance (or rather rock-paper-scissors + skill) are nearly always used in competetive PvP games, especially Moba and MMO. And i can spend rest of the day writing how this design is used just in Lol/Dota, and how ESO would benefit from it.

However best DPS atm are magicka casters and by quite big margin, which have IN SAME TIME much better survi options than stamina based (ranged or melee) DPS.
Main problem is that they're trying to balance game but very drastic changes instead of small incremental steps. That's why they can't manage to balance it as a whole. And focusing on one part of game to balance at same time is very bad practice, and creates environment when half potential builds are useless for balancing period. There is no guarantee that in DB there will be balance. It'd be more likely that there will be just power shift to stamina and other FoTM build.

I won't reffer much to your ninja example, because it's less from historical point, and more from pop-culture one. Ninjas were assassins, and good assassin always use right tools for specific task. Most of time they used simple tools (like farming tools) which were not considered as weapons. Or poisons. Or whatever was most suitable.