Hybrid build in depth, could it work?

psychotic13 · March 2016

Hi everyone, this is my first post here but lets cut to the chase! Basically i've been determined to create a hybrid that actually works, i want to use a bow, but i also want to use the majority of the class abilities and if choose to do so, not be forced into using a staff.

Before i get into the formulas and build, i want to ask peoples opinion on for a hybrid to be viable, how much of each of the following stat do you think is required?
Max Magicka: ?
Max Health: ?
Max Stamina: ?
Magicka Regen: ?
Stamina Regen: ?
Spell Damage: ?
Weapon Damage: ?

I'd appreciate all the feedback guys.

So this is what ive theory crafted using some of the formulas from here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/209938/pts-2-3-x-sorcerer-arithmagic

before we go into the math, i'll list my gear, enchantments, mundus ect.

Class: Nightblade
Race: Dunmer

Going with 5M/2L

Head: Molag Kena - ( 1pc bonus - +129 WD & SD)
Shoulder: Molag Kena - (2pc bonus - chance to proc 'Overkill' gives +512 WD & SD)
Chest: Essence Thief
Legs: Essence Thief - (2pc bonus - +967 Stamina)
Belt: Essence Thief - (3pc bonus - +967 Stamina)
Boots: Essence Thief - (4pc bonus - +129 WD)
Gloves: Essence Thief - (5pc bonus - light attacks have a 10% chance to restore 4200 health & stamina and increase damage by 12%)

Weapon 1: Maelstrom Bow - (1335 Damage + 189 WD)
Weapon 2: Maelstrom Destro - (1335 Damage + 189 SD)

Amulet: Willpower - (Arcane +850? Magicka / Ench - +174 SD)
Ring: Willpower - (2pc bonus - +1451 Magicka / Robust +850? Stamina / Ench - +174 WD)
Ring: Willpower - (3pc bonus - +193 SD / Robust +850? Stamina / Ench +169 Stam Regen)

Armour Enchants:
x4 Small pcs - Prismatic - 174 Magicka & Stamina 190 Health
- 174 x 4 = 696 Magicka & Stamina
- 190 x 4 = 760 Health

x2 Big pcs - Prismatic - 434 Magicka & Stamina 477 Health
- 434 x 2 = 868 Magicka & Stamina
- 477 x 2 = 954 Health

x1 Big pc - Stam - 868 Stamina

Totals:
Magicka - (696 + 868 = 1564)
Health - (760 + 954 = 1714)
Stamina - (696 + 868 + 868 = 2432)

Mundus:
Magicka Regen +210
7 Divines - 0.075x7 = 1.525

Food:
VR15 Tri-Stat = 4105 Magicka & Stamina + 4462 Health

Attribute Points:
Split 50/14 into Magicka/Stamina
=5550/1554

Champion Points:
I currently only have 270 CP, so 90 in each.

The Thief - 45/45 Arcanist/Mooncalf = 14.3% Magicka & Stamina Regen
The Warrior - 90 Hardy = 23.3%
The Mage - 30/30/30 Elfborn/Thaumaturge/Mighty = 10.8% increase in each.

SKILL BONUSES

Magicka
Dark Elf - 9%
Siphoning - 8%
Undaunted - 4% (Not using heavy armour)
Mage guild passive - 2%
Total - 23% = 1.23

Stamina
Dark Elf - 6%
Undaunted 4%
Total - 10% = 1.1

Health
Undaunted - 4%
Shadow Passive - 3% (forgot the name)
Total - 7% = 1.07

Magicka Regen
Vampire - 10%
Refreshing shadows - 15%
x2 Light armour - 8%
Mage guild passive - 2%
Total - 35% = 1.35

Stamina
Vampire - 10%
Refreshing shadows - 15%
x5 Medium armour - 20%
Grim Focus Morph - 10%
Total - 55% = 1.55

Dont worry about health regen, as a vampire the 75% decrease makes it pointless to raise

Spell Damage
Sap Essence/Entropy - 20%
Total - 20% = 1.2

Weapon Damage
Sap Essence - 20%
Medium Armour - 12%
Flawless Dawnbreaker - 8%
Total - 40% - 1.4

i'd also have the 8% Damage bonus from Grim Focus and have a chance to proc the 12% damage off of my armour set, although i think these only apply to the tooltop damage not your weapon/spell damage, if someone could confirm or correct that?

MATHS

Base stats for magicka and stamina at VR16 are 7958, for health it is 8744
Base stats for recovery for magicka and stamina at VR16 are 514, for health it is 309.

CPI is a cumulative percentage increase due to points spent in the corresponding constellation and can be calculated as followed:

CPI = (1+CP Amount^0.56432/100)
= (1+90^0.56432/100)
= 1.267

In the following formula gear includes all set bonuses and enchantments to armor/jewellery.

Max Stat Pool
(Magicka)
=(((Base+Attribute+Gear)xCPI)+Food)xSkills
=(((7958+5550+3865)x1.267)+4105)x1.23
= 32123 Max Magicka

(Stamina)
=(((7958+1554+6066)x1.267)+4105)x1.1
= 26226 Max Stamina

(Health)
=(((8744+0+1714)x1.267)+4462)x1.07
= 18952 Max Health

Regen
(Magicka)
=((Base+Gear+Mundus x Divines)x Arcanist) x Skills
=((514+0+210x1,525)x1,143)x1.35
= 1287 Magicka Regen

(Stamina)
=((514+169)x1.143)x1.55
= 1210 Stamina Regen

=((514+295)x1.143)x1.35 (If i add 1pc Bloodspawn over a Molag Kena pc)
= 1433 Stamina Regen

Damage

(Spell Damage)
=(Gear+Mundus x Divines) x Skills
= (1335+189+174+193+129)x1.2
= 2424 Spell Damage

(Weapon Damage)
=(1335+189+174+129+129)x 1.4
= 2738 Weapon Damage

If all these calculations are correct and the formula hasnt been updated, then these results were better than i thought i would get, and they dont include PvP buffs.

TLDR;

Hyrbid Stats:

Max Magicka - 32123
Max Stamina - 26226
Max Health - 18952
Magicka Regen - 1210
Stamina Regen - 1210/1433
Spell power - 2424
Weapon power - 2738

So whats your thoughts? would the be good enough to contend in a fight against pure builds? Regen isnt great but you do have 2 large pools to delve from.

Ahzek · March 2016

You just ended up with subpar regen ( as you admitted yourself) and subpar damage. Pure builds can just sqeeze at least 1k more spell/wep damage in there, as well as use a damaging mundus stone (thief or shadow most likely). Also you kinda want to use as much impenetrable as possible for PvP right now and you only run with 19k HP, so you will be pretty vulnerable to burst on top.

Prabooo · March 2016

psychotic13 wrote: »

Basically i've been determined to create a hybrid that actually works (...)

Good luck

Bashev · March 2016

psychotic13 wrote: »

Basically i've been determined to create a hybrid that actually works

@Wrobel forbid this kind of builds.

On topic if we had a cap of 30k pool and 3k damage then it can work.

psychotic13 · March 2016

I know the regen won't be great but if I have 2 large pools it not as much as an issue because I could use the other pool when one gets low. And these stats are without the PvP health buff from cyrodil.

Yeah I'm going to look at some other sets also, switch a few enchantments and see what numbers they produce. Twice born star may be an option using both Mundus stones for spell damage and weapon damage.

I could easily get 30k in both pools just by switching some attribute points, just need to push for some more damage.

I want to use a bow and the majority of the class skills, and don't want to be forced to use a staff. Light attacks from the bow seem to be the quickest to me, and some of the skills scale off light attacks, Overkill, Assassins Will and the bonus from the Essence Thief set.

psychotic13 · March 2016

Also is anyone familiar with the formula for ability tooltip damage?

Acsvf · March 2016

psychotic13 wrote: »

Also is anyone familiar with the formula for ability tooltip damage?

a(magicka+spelldamage*b)+c
a(stamina+weapondamage*b)+c
Something like that.
For calculation purposes, your magicka damage is magicka+(spell damage*10.5) and stamina damage is magicka+(spell damage*10.5)
I think it could be magicka or stamina divided by 10.5 but it's the same either way.

And good luck on your build: You're going to need it. I do not believe it will work.

Acsvf · March 2016

Damage is damage you deal, it doesn't affect stats.

What's your critical chance?

Asayre · March 2016

An interesting build proposal. You can calculate base ability damage (before CP, passives etc) with the following spreadshert
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YN8YWDpi1-d4CfoagRy1F9ath2w2nb-TniL4MjdJdz4/edit#gid=674780276

Wouldn't you be aiming for a lower regen as a hybrid build because you can use both pools? The Thief would be significantly better as it provides weapon and spell crit.

I haven't thought too much about it but I feel that you should try to rely on all the DoTs you can do since you have access to a wider range of DoTs and this allows you to put most of your points into Thaumathurge thereby benefitting both Stamina and Magicka abilities.

psychotic13 · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

An interesting build proposal. You can calculate base ability damage (before CP, passives etc) with the following spreadshert
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YN8YWDpi1-d4CfoagRy1F9ath2w2nb-TniL4MjdJdz4/edit#gid=674780276

Wouldn't you be aiming for a lower regen as a hybrid build because you can use both pools? The Thief would be significantly better as it provides weapon and spell crit.

I haven't thought too much about it but I feel that you should try to rely on all the DoTs you can do since you have access to a wider range of DoTs and this allows you to put most of your points into Thaumathurge thereby benefitting both Stamina and Magicka abilities.

Thanks for that, and yes I'm aiming for a low-ish regen, but until I get this character to VR16 I won't see first hand how much Regen I'm going to need at end game. But I have thought of changing Mundus, as I said above I'm considering testing it with twice born star and using the WD & SD stones.

And that also crossed my mind, but in the next update they're changing the magic damage over to elemental expert, so I'd probably have to go 45/45 elemental expert/mighty. But yeah doing that would've been a great option, for the poison damage too, then I'd use the VR14 master bow instead because of the special effect that procs about 300WD I think?

Grim Focus (+8%Damage) -> (Poison Arrow (Would proc 300WD) -> light attacks -> armor set procs (12%damage)+ overkill procs (512 WD/SD) -> Assassins Will proc = Big Damage is what I'm thinking.

Although saying it might be a lot easier than having to proc everything

SemiD4rkness · March 2016

Didn't read, answer is NO. Hybrid builds are horrible.

Birdovic · March 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Didn't read, answer is NO. Hybrid builds are horrible.

Soft cap times should prove you wrong.
But well, you didnt read anything anyway, so your answer was for naught

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

Please no more "bring back 1.5 so I can be a hybrid" crap >.<
Why no one remembers how awful class and stam/magicka disparity was back then?

Panth141 · March 2016

Are you planning on a PvE or PvP focus?

psychotic13 · March 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Didn't read, answer is NO. Hybrid builds are horrible.

Then why bother commenting?

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Please no more "bring back 1.5 so I can be a hybrid" crap >.<
Why no one remembers how awful class and stam/magicka disparity was back then?

Because that's how I want to play the game, so I'm atleast going to try and see if I can pull it off.

Panth141 wrote: »

Are you planning on a PvE or PvP focus?

Both I guess, PvE I only run dungeons to get the monster parts I need. And PvP is where I play mostly, but I'm not trying to have the best build in the game and kill everyone in cyrodil lol, I just want a hybrid build that can hold his own when it comes down to it, im not playing against pro's, just anyone who's in cyrodil.

actosh · March 2016

I like this build idea. Basicly because im a dk and i may try something like this. Would maybe change some things but overall it looks nice and a fun build.

Sure u wont be a super dps in trials and dungeons, but thats not what u aim for right?

ub17_ESO · March 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Please no more "bring back 1.5 so I can be a hybrid" crap >.<
Why no one remembers how awful class and stam/magicka disparity was back then?

To be fair, the only real imbalance as far as PvE DPS goes was the large disparity between magic DK and everyone else. The problem was that everyone bought the hype about stamina being awful and no one put a lot of effort into figuring out stam builds.

bowmanz607 · March 2016

Not a bad approach. I think your max stats are fine. I think your Stam regeneration is low, but 8f you are pulling dps from both pools, then your Stam regeneration is off set by being able to pull from another pool. The big issue I see is weapon damage should hit 3k. Perhaps try another approach. I think if you drop essence the if for clever alchemist, then you will have a viable hybrid build. Kena proc with alchemist would put you in solid weapon and spell power damage with manageable sized resource pools. Plus, throw in tri potions for that extra regen. Also, using grim focus morph with Stam regen. You also seem to suggest you were using entropy and sap??? Overall, just stick with sap because you get weapon and spell power.

Overall, I liked what you did. Although you will obviously get more from a pure build. As long as your using your major buffs and grim focus buff, your stays seem acceptable. I think your damage stats would be solid if you added clever alchemist though.

bowmanz607 · March 2016

O and perhaps adding dawn breaker to get eXtra weapon damage. I also like the point someone made about a dot build, which this ult would fight with.

Autolycus · March 2016

Ahzek wrote: »

You just ended up with subpar regen ( as you admitted yourself) and subpar damage. Pure builds can just sqeeze at least 1k more spell/wep damage in there, as well as use a damaging mundus stone (thief or shadow most likely). Also you kinda want to use as much impenetrable as possible for PvP right now and you only run with 19k HP, so you will be pretty vulnerable to burst on top.

Disagreed on every point. Regen is a dump stat beyond ~1500. I can squeeze out more than 1k spell damage for that same regen that the "meta" calls for. I run with right around 1500 regen and can sustain ten minute fights without ever running out of magicka, and without ever using siphoning attacks. I also run zero impen and I'm the designated "gank bait" in my group. It's very easy to bait a ganker, and you don't need impen to do it.

OP, your overall stats look pretty good on paper. In practice, you'll be able to buff your SD and WD depending on which buffs and skills you choose to use in pvp. It's got potential, but by far your biggest setback here is your lack of CP. Hybrid builds are much more viable when you break the 400+ CP range.

Elijah_Crow · March 2016

The only workable hybrid build i've seen viable is a Magicka Templar Heal/Tank/DPS. My wife is running this build and for Vet Dungeons she is Tank/only healer/and pulls 20K on trash and about 8 to 10K on bosses. The great thing about this build is with a few changes for PvP it's bursty and tough to kill in 1vX.

Good luck however.

psychotic13 · March 2016

actosh wrote: »

I like this build idea. Basicly because im a dk and i may try something like this. Would maybe change some things but overall it looks nice and a fun build.

Sure u wont be a super dps in trials and dungeons, but thats not what u aim for right?

Yeah I'm not trying to create the best DPS in the game, just want to be able to use what I want to and still be competitive.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Not a bad approach. I think your max stats are fine. I think your Stam regeneration is low, but 8f you are pulling dps from both pools, then your Stam regeneration is off set by being able to pull from another pool. The big issue I see is weapon damage should hit 3k. Perhaps try another approach. I think if you drop essence the if for clever alchemist, then you will have a viable hybrid build. Kena proc with alchemist would put you in solid weapon and spell power damage with manageable sized resource pools. Plus, throw in tri potions for that extra regen. Also, using grim focus morph with Stam regen. You also seem to suggest you were using entropy and sap??? Overall, just stick with sap because you get weapon and spell power.

Overall, I liked what you did. Although you will obviously get more from a pure build. As long as your using your major buffs and grim focus buff, your stays seem acceptable. I think your damage stats would be solid if you added clever alchemist though.

I achieved the stats shown by using max food, so I wouldn't really be willing to sacrifice that for a higher Regen, when I have 2 pools to source from.

And I didn't intend to use sap and entropy, I was just listing the skills/Passives that would available to me to help buff my stats. And I agree with the alchemist set, could work very well.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

O and perhaps adding dawn breaker to get eXtra weapon damage. I also like the point someone made about a dot build, which this ult would fight with.

Dawnbreaker has already been included in the calculations.

Autolycus wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

You just ended up with subpar regen ( as you admitted yourself) and subpar damage. Pure builds can just sqeeze at least 1k more spell/wep damage in there, as well as use a damaging mundus stone (thief or shadow most likely). Also you kinda want to use as much impenetrable as possible for PvP right now and you only run with 19k HP, so you will be pretty vulnerable to burst on top.

Disagreed on every point. Regen is a dump stat beyond ~1500. I can squeeze out more than 1k spell damage for that same regen that the "meta" calls for. I run with right around 1500 regen and can sustain ten minute fights without ever running out of magicka, and without ever using siphoning attacks. I also run zero impen and I'm the designated "gank bait" in my group. It's very easy to bait a ganker, and you don't need impen to do it.

OP, your overall stats look pretty good on paper. In practice, you'll be able to buff your SD and WD depending on which buffs and skills you choose to use in pvp. It's got potential, but by far your biggest setback here is your lack of CP. Hybrid builds are much more viable when you break the 400+ CP range.

I agree the CP is an issue, this is why I've decided to bench this until I reach a higher range.

but I am currently trying a Hyrbid Sorc, utilising stamina for DPS but building a large Magicka pool (as its pretty easy to stack Magicka) while only focusing on weapon damage and not spell damage.

Reason for this? Well as hardend ward and annulment scale from ONLY max Magicka and not spell damage, effectively I'm trying to build a Stam sorc which can shield stack.

myrrrorb14_ESO · March 2016

I'm currently running a hybrid. For PvE it's fine, dps is a bit low so fights take longer. In PvP this might be a problem, I haven't gone to Cyrodiil since I switched over.

Since your stats look better than mine, I suspect it will work well in PvE and decently in PvP. Give it a try and post how well it works!

natewook · March 2016

one word: nope

Purdomination33 · March 2016

The only issue I see is the HP in Cyrodiil. 2.8k weapon damage is just fine. People get so caught up in insta killing someone in 3 hits they cannot imagine killing another way. I run a Stam DK w/all Legendary Prismatic. In Cyrodiil my stats are in the general range below. I have no problems at all winning 1 v 1 fights. Dudes are running around Cyrodiil with 20k HP, doesn't take a whole lot to get them down. PvE is not an issue either. Sustained DPS and keeping myself alive or tank. Very versatile and a great member of any group. Like someone said having a high CP count goes a long way. That simply comes with time.

In Cyrodiil:
Magicka: 16k
Health: 30k
Stam: 29-30k
Stam Regen: 1220 <-need Bloodspawn helm to improve this, stupid thing won't drop
Weapon Damage: 2.8-3.2k <-could be higher if I wanted to sacrifice regen or HP.

Don't let people tell you something won't work when they have ZERO experience themselves. Try it, if you don't like it you can always respec.