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Maybe cut down trait-research time?
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Ni7eWa7ch✭✭The nirnhoned trait appears to be rare to find as well
I don't mind at all about the research time , good thing's are more rewarding when you aquire them after a long struggle and having the knowledge that others will have to go trough the same agony in order to make 9 trait sets0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭These are the things ESO+ benefits should address... ESO+ = 25% lessened research time.
Then add Crown Store "research notes". Each one applied cuts research time by 50%
I could have sworn it was +10%. Which, is fine.
If you push it too far, this would start getting really irking established crafters.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The nirnhoned trait appears to be rare to find as well
I don't mind at all about the research time , good thing's are more rewarding when you aquire them after a long struggle and having the knowledge that others will have to go trough the same agony in order to make 9 trait sets
Nirnhoned only naturally drops very rarely in Craglorn, and a single (random) Nirnhoned item is given as a quest reward at the end of the Upper Craglorn questline.
Additionally, Nirncrux can only drop from resource nodes (blacksmithing, clothier, and woodworking) and leather dropping mobs, in Upper Craglorn, and Craglorn writ locations.
It's a very rare trait.0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
Why not?We shouldn't be able to become master crafters in a week.
If I have the week to put in <x> amount of hours, why shouldnt I be able to max my crafting?
I'd still have to acquire all the requisites; both the items with the traits themselves and the materials with which to craft them, and thats just as much of a grind as an arbitrary: "You cannot un-stitch this piece of armor or melt down this metal thingy (both of which look exactly like the previous thingy's, they just have a different named and colored jewel in them) because, reasons."
I'd agree, and the fact that we think it shouldnt happen doesnt mean we cant give ZoS feedback about how asinine and un-fun it is to have to login, click a button, and then logoff that character for weeks and finally, months at a time.If we could get a system based more on player effort than on time, then I might be in favor, but let's be realistic: it's not going to happen.
Edited by OmniDo on March 21, 2016 11:26PM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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To engender a sunk cost fallacy in the player, and encourage top tier crafters to stick around. This is especially true when you realize how critical they are in maintaining the supply of Nirnhoned traits.0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
Why would you want to do that?starkerealm wrote: »To engender a sunk cost fallacy in the player, and encourage top tier crafters to stick around. This is especially true when you realize how critical they are in maintaining the supply of Nirnhoned traits.
I dont want to rely upon ANYONE beyond those I choose.
So even if I spent 6 months clicking buttons and then logging off to go play something else (probably cancelling my sub in between crafts too, because **** non-entertaining time sinks, Im still not going to craft for, or sell to you or any other random player, anything I create.
Why? Because with all due respect, I dont give a **** about you. I play this game for MY Elder Scrolls experience, not to be dictated or beholden to anyone that I dont choose to be.
If you are one of my friends or associates, Im going to craft for you for free anyway, and the only "Cost" would be the requisite materials.
If ZoS is attempting to Forcibly slow us down to create a pseudo-economy, then then quite frankly, **** them, and **** that.
If theyre doing it to force retention, theres no longer any point since the game is F2P.
Sadly, people still maintain the delusion that these pseudo-economies are required.
Everything but specific group-required content rewards can be obtained solo, so the only logical fallacy here is the incorrect conclusion of a "required sunk cost".
Edited by OmniDo on March 22, 2016 12:06AM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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Why would you want to do that?starkerealm wrote: »To engender a sunk cost fallacy in the player, and encourage top tier crafters to stick around. This is especially true when you realize how critical they are in maintaining the supply of Nirnhoned traits.
I dont want to rely upon ANYONE beyond those I choose.
Then, with respect, this might not be the genre for you.
When you take a game like, Fallout 4, or XCOM2, it really doesn't matter if anyone else is playing it. I mean, literally, you can be one of the last people playing Morrowind right now, and it doesn't affect you. You can run all the content, do all the things. It may take multiple playthroughs, but the presence, or absence, of other players, doesn't affect your ability to play the game.
MMOs aren't like that. MMOs, at some level, require you to interface with other players. That can just be for running four man content, or it can be for learning the systems. While they've eased back on stuff like Dolmens, originally those, and world bosses required you to work with other players. Even public dungeons are aimed at the idea of working with other players, whether you want to or not.
So, what happens when you want to run Poachers or Mad Ogre, and no one else is online? You don't get to. Sorry.
In that sense, it is critical you keep players around. Not just any players, but ones who actually know what they're doing.
This is a large part of why MMOs pay out with "loyalty rewards" that give you goodies for maintaining an active subscription. It's part of why many MMOs include lifetime subscriptions. Because if you can lock in a chunk of the playerbase, to keep them around so long as their interested, and can come back at any time, that's a win for the developers.
It's also why almost all MMOs have some kind of long term progression system. Like the Champion Points, but also like crafting. They're there to provide additional investment to players as they spend more time in the game. Because, like it or not, you need them. Not because they can craft stuff you can't, but because they know more than you do about how the game functions... and, in turn, when you need to seek them out, to craft your Twice Born Star set or whatever, you're more likely to realize they might have information you need to keep going.
The time gate on crafting is kinda arbitrary, but it's there to say, "hey, I've been here for awhile, I know what's up."Why? Because with all due respect, I dont give a **** about you.
It's nice to be loved.
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Slylok✭✭✭Please dont change a thing.Youtube ESO First Person Gameplay - http://tinyurl.com/o6evusk
Twitter - SlylokYoutube
Google+ - Slylok0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »These are the things ESO+ benefits should address... ESO+ = 25% lessened research time.
Then add Crown Store "research notes". Each one applied cuts research time by 50%
I could have sworn it was +10%. Which, is fine.
If you push it too far, this would start getting really irking established crafters.
Eh, if those "established crafters" aren't willing to pay for ESO+ it's their problem... not ZOS'
Or do you mean, they would make those who have already researched those items at the longer time angry?
Edited by Gidorick on March 22, 2016 12:28AMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »These are the things ESO+ benefits should address... ESO+ = 25% lessened research time.
Then add Crown Store "research notes". Each one applied cuts research time by 50%
I could have sworn it was +10%. Which, is fine.
If you push it too far, this would start getting really irking established crafters.
Eh, if those "established crafters" aren't willing to pay for ESO+ it's their problem... not ZOS'
Or do you mean, they would make those who have already researched those items at the longer time angry?
Yeah, the latter. Consider the utter firestorm you see every time someone suggests they should put the Tiger Senche in the crown store.0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just did my first trait learning and it only took 5 1/2 hours for three of them.
@Volkodav Tip for you if you don't know:
Prioritize which traits you research first and get the ones you actually will use first and faster. Leave well-fitted, reinforced, sturdy, etc for last since they won't matter much.
Got it.I dont know anything about doing traits.I just wanted to see what would happen if I did it.I did something else though.I knew not to use Well-fitted. I cant think what they were at the moment.
Thanks for the tip.
Any suggestions for the ones I should work on first?Edited by Volkodav on March 22, 2016 1:21AM0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
Clicking "Research trait" every 30 days says nothing about one's skill or ability to contribute anything productive.starkerealm wrote: »The time gate on crafting is kinda arbitrary, but it's there to say, "hey, I've been here for awhile, I know what's up."
It lets you say: "Hey, I clicked a button with an arbitrary time-sink attached! Im so awesome!"
Thats equivalent to saying: "I wear a black belt, therefore I know karate."
Player retention has nothing to do about arbitrary time sinks, and everything to do with a players desire to, you know actually want to play the game.
As for progression or end-game, thats for the refinement of one's practiced skill, not the gear one has spent unnecessarily large amounts of arbitrary time acquiring the capability to create.
The potential for power is not the same as possessing it, and the possession of power does not grant the wisdom of its use.Edited by OmniDo on March 22, 2016 1:20AM1 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
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Clicking "Research trait" every 30 days says nothing about one's skill or ability to contribute anything productive.starkerealm wrote: »The time gate on crafting is kinda arbitrary, but it's there to say, "hey, I've been here for awhile, I know what's up."
It lets you say: "Hey, I clicked a button with an arbitrary time-sink attached! Im so awesome!"
Thats equivalent to saying: "I wear a black belt, therefore I know karate."
Player retention has nothing to do about arbitrary time sinks, and everything to do with a players desire to, you know actually want to play the game.
As for progression or end-game, thats for the refinement of one's practiced skill, not the gear one has spent unnecessarily large amounts of arbitrary time acquiring the capability to create.
The potential for power is not the same as possessing it, and the possession of power does not grant the wisdom of its use.
I like that word too though I dont use it a lot.
Arbitrary.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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Clicking "Research trait" every 30 days says nothing about one's skill or ability to contribute anything productive.starkerealm wrote: »The time gate on crafting is kinda arbitrary, but it's there to say, "hey, I've been here for awhile, I know what's up."
It lets you say: "Hey, I clicked a button with an arbitrary time-sink attached! Im so awesome!"
Thats equivalent to saying: "I wear a black belt, therefore I know karate."
Player retention has nothing to do about arbitrary time sinks, and everything to do with a players desire to, you know actually want to play the game.
As for progression or end-game, thats for the refinement of one's practiced skill, not the gear one has spent unnecessarily large amounts of arbitrary time acquiring the capability to create.
The potential for power is not the same as possessing it, and the possession of power does not grant the wisdom of its use.
To be fair, because of how research timers intersect, you're far more likely to advance those while you're actually playing. Even at the extreme end, very few people are going to go, "oh, it's March, I need to log into ESO and roll over my crafting research."
So, no, while most of it occurs without any player input, it does represent a significant time investment.
Which is only reinforced when you get people coming in here and saying, "yeah, let's cut the timers on this way back, this is nuts." Rather obviously, it is a serious time commitment.
Ironically, it's also a time commitment that doesn't punish you for taking a few days off. Unlike, say, grinding dailies for the perfect monster set pieces.0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
Explain to me how clicking a research button and waiting 30 days is a "Serious" time commitment.starkerealm wrote: »Rather obviously, it is a serious time commitment.
Its a boring, frustrating, time-gate.
Thats like saying: "Spending 10 hours watching a soap opera is a serious time commitment, because after its over we're going to give you some ice cream."
The results are not equitable, nor entertaining.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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Explain to me how clicking a research button and waiting 30 days is a "Serious" time commitment.starkerealm wrote: »Rather obviously, it is a serious time commitment.
Its a boring, frustrating, time-gate.
That would be how.Thats like saying: "Spending 10 hours watching a soap opera is a serious time commitment, because after its over we're going to give you some ice cream."
The results are not equitable, nor entertaining.
The results are. Once you can just say, "screw it," and make the armor sets you want? That is rewarding. If you're just sitting there watching your counters tick down... what are you doing!? Go out there, play the game, finish off some delves, do a dungeon. The counter is not your game, it's something that happens while you play your game... or you know, do something else.0 -
ThatGuyCameron✭✭✭Literally every mechanic in this game (apart from dying in Cyrodiil) is designed to sap as much time out of you as possible. It's a part of the business model. I don't see the trait times going down any time soon.Ebonheart EU Xbox One0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
So by "Serious", you mean Aggravating, Annoying, Frustrating, Agitating, and any negative context that otherwise impedes my progress to do the one thing which isnt even my end goal, but prevents me from being able to pursue my end goal: Competently participate in content for which I would be otherwise sub-par or inferior due to the advantages of set bonuses, which can only be obtained from crafted gear that I must endure frustration to obtain?starkerealm wrote: »That would be how.
Yeah, no, thats masochistic if deliberately pursued by the player, and sadistic if deliberately fostered by the developers.
No thanks, **** that.
Yes, that is rewarding.starkerealm wrote: »The results are. Once you can just say, "screw it," and make the armor sets you want? That is rewarding.
The sets are only half the equation.
The second half is their optimal use, which again is arbitrarily gated for <insert sadistic reason here>.
Unfortunately, your apologetic doesnt extend to the crowd.Edited by OmniDo on March 22, 2016 4:14AM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭<insert sadistic reason here>.
Okay, here's my simple question for you: Are you here to play the game?
Ignore the research system for a second.
Is the game actually entertaining for you?
If it is, then crafting and research will be nice perks, stuff you can have running in the background as you go. You can start it up, and forget about it for a couple weeks while you play the game, and have fun.
If it's not, then they're not going to rescue the game for you. I'm sorry. Some of the crafted stuff is fun to play with, but if the core gameplay loop doesn't do it for you, crafting is not going to be a panacea for all your woes.Edited by starkerealm on March 22, 2016 4:18AM0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
Im here to enjoy the world of Elder Scrolls Online at a pace dictated by ME, within the logical confines of the world presented.starkerealm wrote: »Okay, here's my simple question for you: Are you here to play the game?
Playing the game is. Waiting an arbitrary amount of time to be able to play the game for <insert sadistic reason here>, is not.starkerealm wrote: »Is the game actually entertaining for you?
Thats not playing the game, thats waiting for the game to finish playing itself.starkerealm wrote: »...stuff you can have running in the background as you go.
If I wanted to do that, I'd just design and run a bot.
Sure, okay.starkerealm wrote: »Some of the crafted stuff is fun to play with, but if the core gameplay loop doesn't do it for you, crafting is not going to be a panacea for all your woes.
Then the game needs to provide an alternative to crafting which is equally as advantageous and doesnt waste my time waiting on IT to complete.2 -
Sordidfairytale✭✭✭✭✭I'd like to see some incentive to keeping points in the trait research passives after you've researched all the traits. Perhaps giving the crafter a chance to learn the crafting style of the item being deconned? Or maybe the ability to apply a model onto another piece of armor (Level 10 breton on VR16 armor for instance). As it is now, I've removed all the points in those passives.Edited by Sordidfairytale on March 22, 2016 4:30AMThe Vegemite Knight1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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Im here to enjoy the world of Elder Scrolls Online at a pace dictated by ME, within the logical confines of the world presented.starkerealm wrote: »Okay, here's my simple question for you: Are you here to play the game?
To an extent, this is. I know, this is one of the weirder elements of the game, but still. ESO has to balance players against each other to a rough degree.
One of the ways they do this is by making crafters valuable to other players.
The design intention behind the crafters was never for one player to do everything. You're not supposed to have enough bank space and skill points to spec out all your crafting trees. That's just not supposed to happen. You're supposed to pick a crafting skill, focus on that, and ignore the others. Then trade with other players for the stuff you can't make.
Remember, for a game like this to work, it needs other players. To keep players around, it needs them interacting with each other and making connections.
So the original goal was to make crafters interdependent. Each school of crafting has a critical progression that is supposed to take considerable time. With alchemy, you're supposed to figure out what each ingredient does. With Enchanting, learning each rune, and each combination. With equipment, researching traits. With provisioning, finding recipes...
And, this doesn't really work the way it's supposed to. These are all supposed to be major time sinks... except, you can actually look on line, and identify all your alchemy traits in an hour. Enchanting doesn't take much longer, except for potency runes. Provisioners can buy recipes, and of course, now, they have more redundancy in their recipe choices. But, research still takes time.
Playing the game is. Waiting an arbitrary amount of time to be able to play the game for <insert sadistic reason here>, is not.starkerealm wrote: »Is the game actually entertaining for you?
Thats not playing the game, thats waiting for the game to finish playing itself.starkerealm wrote: »...stuff you can have running in the background as you go.
If I wanted to do that, I'd just design and run a bot.
No, it's not playing the game. It's something that happens in the background while you play.
Sure, okay.starkerealm wrote: »Some of the crafted stuff is fun to play with, but if the core gameplay loop doesn't do it for you, crafting is not going to be a panacea for all your woes.
Then the game needs to provide an alternative to crafting which is equally as advantageous and doesnt waste my time waiting on IT to complete.
Take up Provisioning, or Alchemy, or Enchanting. Hunt down Thieves' Caches. Run IC or Wrothgar content. Ironically, the removal of the invisible +1 level bonus to crafted gear means fishing for drops can yield functional endgame gear.
There are legitimate alternatives to crafting in the game. Just running PvE content in Wrothgar can eventually gear you to V16 gear.
Or, you know, start your research, then forget about it for a couple weeks, until it expires. Then go stick some other stuff into the system, and repeat. If you're obsessing over the research, it'll be insufferable... so, don't. Just don't think about it. Grab addons to help manage it if you want, but otherwise, just forget it's there until it's time to feed new traits into the system.
Play the game you enjoy, and don't obsess over research. If you're still finding stuff to do in a couple months, you'll be a lot closer to being done than you are now.0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
None of those things are an equitable replacement for the gear I am forced to wait <insert an excessively long amount of arbitrary time here> to acquire.starkerealm wrote: »Take up Provisioning, or Alchemy, or Enchanting. Hunt down Thieves' Caches. Run IC or Wrothgar content. Ironically, the removal of the invisible +1 level bonus to crafted gear means fishing for drops can yield functional endgame gear.
I can already do all those other things, max them out, and still end up waiting <x>days for research traits to complete for gear that I *Want* to obtain so that I can continue forward.
This sounds just like the education systems designed to compensate for limited human abilities.
This is not fun.
How would you like it if you were attempting to acquire a Ph.D in a chosen field, only to be told: "Sure, you can obtain that, after you sit in kindergarten and play with crayons for 6 months."
I'd promptly tell my Dissertation Review board to go **** themselves, and then subsequently publicly humiliate and shame them as a disgrace to the education system.
"Fun", would be the following:
1. Identify Challenge (A)
2. Pursue Challenge (A)
3. Complete Challenge (A)
4. Obtain Reward for Completion of Challenge (A)
5. Move on to Challenge (B)
The current system is:
1. Identify Challenge (A)
2. Pursue Challenge (A) until arbitrarily forced to wait <x> time for some sadistic or irrelevant reason
3. Attempt to distract oneself with less interesting challenges or sub-challenges while waiting
4. Finally obtain requirement to complete challenge (A) without any effort other than sheer tolerance of the stupidity of the circumstances
5. Complete Challenge (A)
6. Obtain Reward for Completion of Challenge (A)
7. Move on to Challenge (B)
This isnt rocket surgery, and none of this game should require any of the players to be forcibly subjected to mediocrity or segued non-relevant distraction.
If MY goal is to win, then that is all I am concerned with.
Stop trying to justify The Dog in the Manger. Its not working.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How would you like it if you were attempting to acquire a Ph.D in a chosen field, only to be told: "Sure, you can obtain that, after you sit in kindergarten and play with crayons for 6 months."This isnt rocket surgery...
I think I can see why they may have recommended some remedial education...
Here's the thing, you can either choose to torture yourself with time gated rewards, or you can choose to work towards those time gated rewards, and play the game in the mean time. And, I really do need to stress this. You can choose if you torment yourself over this. If you really need to obsess over it, there's nothing I can do for you.0 -
OmniDo✭✭✭✭✭
You may "Stress" your position all you like, but your apologetic doesnt extend to the crowd, and your Dog in the Manger argument is invalid.starkerealm wrote: »And, I really do need to stress this. You can choose if you torment yourself over this. If you really need to obsess over it, there's nothing I can do for you.
Also, your previous comment was ad hominem, which automatically disqualifies you from further credible participation.
I stand by my proposition: The Existing Time-Gated Research system is crap, and should be changed.
Statically Gate it if you will, but do not further punish the pursuant towards their goal(s).
My proposed compromise would be to leave it at a maximum of 3 simultaneous trait researches, but require no more than 24 hours per trait, regardless of the number of traits already known.Edited by OmniDo on March 22, 2016 5:42AM1 -
CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭The research times are reasonable, if you want to be a crafter. I'm not even interested in trading, I just like crafting. No, I am not maxed in any of the lines and my timers are running a minimum of 10 days currently.
If the time gate is really that much of an issue for you, you should join a guild and get get sets that way. I only say this because it really sounds like you don't actually want to craft, you just want the sets it can provide.
[Edited to remove insulting content]Edited by [Deleted User] on March 22, 2016 8:44PM3 -
myrrrorb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭@OmniDo , sounds like crafting might not be your gig. An. MMO attracts all sorts. Some people love PvP, some group dungeons / trials, some are role-players, and yes some are crafters. Each of those enjoy doing different things, both as they level up and at end game.
Learning all the traits and styles is what many crafters strive to achieve. It is their grand warlord or storm proof or whatever you kids consider top tier. Trying to take that away from them for your own selfish whims is beyond ludicrous. Just go play the game and use dropped sets. No boring wait for an "arbitrary" timer is necessary. Just go out and deal with RNG and keep playing. There are many sets that are only loot drops and even crafted sets drop occasionally, so there is your solution.3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think the time is the issue but rather that you can't research more than 3. Then within this, it cant be the same like leg trait 1, 2 and 3. It has to be leg, hand chest....
Perhaps if they allowed multiples per type and doubled it to 6 instead of three that would be a huge difference maker.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012