ADarklore wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

something like that, yes - it is near to what he said towards the end - that MMO refers nowadays more to the technology behind it than to a certain play style or game concept.

That's exactly right, which is something the old-school MMO purists have been in denial of for the past couple of years. They still stick to the out-dated "MMOs are all about group content" mentality when in fact that is no longer the case. "Massively Multiplayer Online" simply means a massive amount of players playing the same game at the same time- not specifically or exclusively GROUP content... but they refuse to accept this and instead like to berate anyone who plays an MMO solo or doesn't enjoy group content. This is why I'm glad Matt did this interview and stated, for all to see, that the term MMO has indeed evolved into more than just revolving around a game concept focusing on group content.

And if thats the direction of the game many "old -school MMO purists" will leave. You want to play mediocre single player game that requires you to stay online? I do not. I play MMOs exactly for that - playing with others.

All things aside - mr Firor can say what he wants of course, especially since he spoke many, many things in the past, but...

I was taught over and over again - "substance, not title". Mr. Firor can call ESO a duck, but since i see in ESO all elements of MMO - i treat it as one. Frankly speaking the description of ESO from mr. Firor seems to me rather the description of the kind of content Z. will focus - single player dlc with few hours of content - pack it and sell it. Its not a vice of ESO, in fact its a way that will tire more and more players. I dont know the reason for that direction, which contradicts the game selling points at the launch, but if i had to guess its lack of competence in solving technical issues, and the ease of pushing sterile, statick new zones with little content and meaning.

Hear me out - ESO is a game that requires quite infrastructure to run - servers do cost a lot. For it to be profitable ESO cant be the game that people play for a week after each dlc and then it goes on shelf. It needs constant online presence of players and for that it needs meaningful repeatable content. It so happens that the best kind of such content is group one.

Please do show me the elements, that ESO does differently than other MMOs. Please show me why ESO is not like other MMOs. It has solo content? Well you will be surprised, but all MMOs i played through last 16 years had it. In fact in all MMOs i can remember you could play solo up till max lvl. Many of them had solo activities for max lvl players. So what makes ESO different?

If the game director thinks the game is OK, doing awesomely, etc then this game has no future.

Lets evaluate this game objectively:

Evaluating ESO PURELY as an TES - Its the worst title in the entire series, its worse then Redguard. All the core features that made TES a successful game franchise are missing from ESO. no attributes, all the traditional skill lines absent, meaningful impact on the world missing, attention to detail lacking, stunted character development eventually ends with nearly all toons wearing the game gear and pretty much being almost identical semantically.

You can't even play a Necromancer in ESO...a staple of the series that has been around for well over a decade is not possible in ESO.Spell Crafting, can't do it. Where are the Acrobatics, Athletics, and Spell Crafting mechanics? No where to be found probably won't be.

As a game purely looked at as an TES game is the worst game in the series, 80% of what made TES a blockbuster success is absent in ESO and everyone is shoehorned into a particular direction.

Evaluating ESO PURELY as an MMO- its very mediocre....looking at it as an MMO, its not bad, but its not good either. It does nothing to innovate, and in the MMO market you know games that don't innovate have a hard time or die off (See ESO sub failure and later B2P announcement as just one of many examples of this) Its tries too hard to be an MMO and single player game at the same time and in doing so it does neither very well at all leaving us with a mediocre hodge pod of mediocrity. Their failure to focus on a single path(MMO or Online RPG) has crippled the game from the get go and has lead us to where we are today.

Conclusion Honestly, I don't see how this game lasts another 2 years, not in its current state and not with the current devs. The bugs, lag, and broken stuff in this game is getting to the point that what little of their longtime subs they have left are just simply fed up, canceling, and moving on in droves. the players that were invested in this games future are pulling out stakes and leaving. ZOS is focused on short-term gains, but thats a failing proposition, the majority of new customers are not as invested as the old ones are. They will have no basis to be because the culture needed to get these new customers as long term investors is simply not there, and newer folks coming in will not put up with a buggy or laggy game for long, so they will get 1-2 sales per person then these people cut bait and they eventually dry out whatever market they did have to sell to.

"Its costs 6-8 times as much money to get a new customer then it is to retain an existing one"

ZOS really needs to let that statement sink in....they lost me and a few of my friends the other day as long term customers, people that have kept subs since early access in 2014. We have pulled up stakes, im sure many others have or are planning to as well and this game won't survive without a loyal customer base, the same customer base ZOS ignores in favor of the quick sale and selling the Crown Store items.

the only thing remtotely keeping ESO floating is a poor MMO market with no competition. Even BDO as horrible as a game i think it is, was able to whittle away a small but significant portion of ESO prior sub paying playerbase...just wait till CU comes out, it will probably be the axe that comes down on ESO neck....and this all could have been avoided by not purposely releasing beta quality patches and DLC with horrendous bugs, and reintroducing past bugs that were patched long ago coming back shows me the lack of QA and proper code testing and versioning systems....

at the end of the day ESO is not OK and its not some success. It is a however a very hard, painful, and expensive lesson to Bethesda Corporate on what not to do when making a Fallout MMO in the future....

This doesn't make sense. MMORPG means massively multiplayer online role playing game. He's calling it online role playing game. It's the same dame thing. The words Multiplayer And online are redundant so I agree you don't need both in the name but ... Who cares what it's called ... Lol

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ilterendi wrote: »

Craplorn needs a re-release after a major overall/rework. That zone is terrible design.

I agree. I dont know anyone who has done the craglorn quests.

done all the few grp relying quests multiple times on different characters - its the thing people have forgotten over their claims of being able to solo everything and run around with blinkers/blinders on in regards of other human beings...
online games regardles if you call them MMO or online RPG are about socializing, if you skip that part there is no reason to play online anyway.

Reevster wrote: »

So why does it say "Best MMO of 2015" on my launcher screen? lol

Because ZO$ wants their cake without even baking it and to eat it lol

"MF: Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG"

True. Traditional MMOs would never say "no ETA" when discussing their future plans.

Katahdin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It was nice of Matt to come out and say exactly what I've been saying for months, "The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete." Every time I argue that MMO doesn't mean "group only content" anymore- like it was first originally coined... people would say to, "go play a single-player game, MMOs are for groups". So it's nice to actually have the game director coming out and saying, in quite CLEAR AND DIRECT terms, that solo players and solo content IS and ALWAYS WILL BE considered a major focus in this game... because they want content that can be played solo.

Btw, I also book-marked this article because I know in the near future we'll see still continue to see some players stating that "MMOs are only for groups" or that "solo players shouldn't be playing an MMO".

This is the issue the some people have. They feels ESO should be a game where literally everything you go requires a group. To them "MMO" means group required. In the real world, with real world people and real world schedules, this rigidity doesn't work.

Looking at ESO and specifically Craglorn. Craglorn is a massive failure. I've yet to complete Craglorn on even one character because you just can't find groups to do anything other than grind most of the time.

If the whole game was like Craglorn where you had to wait for a group to do anything, I guarantee the whole game would be deserted like Craglorn.

Crag's a fail not because its group content but because its badly executed group content. Open world group content should mean 'so diffucult, youd better group up' not 'oh, we know you could probably solo it if you played your best, but we wont let you, because FU'. The latter is how Craglorn is designed.

I remember leveling in Aion ages ago. A zone would usually have solo content on one side of the map and group content on the other. That 'other side' was group content because it was harder not because the quests didnt let you progress if you werent grouped. If you were the right level for the quests you needed a group and it was still hard. If you were a few levels higher you could slowly solo it but any mistake was fatal. Quite fun.

I see no issues with this article. It sounds pretty like a pretty reasonable marketing pitch for an Elder Scrolls game. Should he be instead trying to insist that ESO is like every other MMO.

How is it a subjective opinion?

Take the name Elder Scrolls off the title and put something else in its place and its barely an average MMO and it's single player content is mediocare compared to to other titles of the genre.

Yes, Bethesda did combine some of the old Attributes from Oblivion and Morrowind in Skyrim into the Health, Magicka, and Stamina stats BUT they also added in an ENTIRE PERK SYSTEM in Skyrim to replace the old Attributes that allow almost as much character customization as previous titles in a simpler manner. All the skill lines being availabe (Well they did combine Mysticism with Alteration and it made sense to do this), but adding and placing points in certain areas allow you to have far more Fleshed out Toons.

I had like 17 different toons in Skyrim alone and each one was completely different from the others and played completely different.

I had an Argonian Rogue who's main skills were: Illusion, Alteration, Destruction, Sneak, and Archery.

I had a Breton Witchunter whos primary skills were Conjuration, Destruction, Light Armor, and Archery

I had an Orc Beserker who's Primary Skills were Two handed, Heavy Armor, Smithing, and Block

I had a High Elf Necromancer whos primary skills were Illusion, Conjuration, Restoration, and Alchemy

I had an Imperial Battlemage whos Primary Skills were Destruction, One handed, Heavy Armor, and Restoration

All those toons played completely diffferet from one another, had their own personalities, their own play styles, and were individually unique....where is that in ESO? its no where to be found.

ESO had the potential to be a great game they simply focused in one area...had they picked to totally focus 100% on being an TES MMO or focusing 100% on being an TES co-op type of game...instead they split themselves between the two ideas, and what we got was just mediocre on both sides. Its not only my opinion, many of the games critics from 2014 to present feel the same way.

Not focusing TES and meaningful impact is missing the entire point of the world Bethesda has created that makes up Nirn...in Oblivion if you join the Dark Brotherhood and murder someone even if your never caught, the guards suspect it and flatout hate you for it...their liking of your character plummets and you have to converse and charm each individual guard in a mini-game, and if their opinion of you becomes too low, they will attack you on the spot. when speaking to them their facial expressions tell you if they like you or not. Your deeds do have a positive or negative impact on the world.

Do You know in Oblivion after leveling your Blade skill to 70 or higher when speaking to the Fighters Guild Trainers this is what they say:

"If you're looking to learn even more, experience is your best bet. If you want pointers, I hear that Alix Lencolia is somewhere in Cyrodiil. Don't tell me you've never heard of him! He's famous for his skill with a blade. And at his young age.... He'll be a legend one day, mark my words. I heard that he was on his way to one of the Southern provinces, seeking fame and fortune. Maybe try an inn along the way, like Faregyl."

Upon tracking down Alix Lencolia if you have not done any good or infamous deeds of any notoriety or infamy he will say the following:

"Training? From me? I'm sorry, friend, but I have no idea who you are. Never heard of you. I'm afraid I don't offer training to just anyone. If you were famous, perhaps... or infamous, I suppose... that might count for something. But, alas, you're not.", and "Until I hear your name spoken by others, don't expect any training from me. When you're known as a hero or a villain, I might change my mind.",

If you have 20 fame points or higher, meaning you have done a lot of good deeds and the people are starting to talk about you and know who you are, Alix will change his tune when asking for training and will say:

"I've heard word of your great deeds. It's good to meet someone else striving to be known throughout the land. We're peas in a pod, you and I. I'd be happy to offer whatever help I can."

If your an infamous murdering Dark Brotherhood stealing thief whos name has become infamous on the lips of the people, when asking Alix for training he will say the following:

"I've heard you mentioned in hushed tones. Quite the evil doer, are you? Well, what's infamy but another type of fame, after all. If you need to improve your skill with a Blade, I'll happily teach you what I know. Imagine how many people will talk if we're seen together?"

Its these little details that are missing from ESO...its the little stuff like this that all comes together as one big piece that makes an TES great...and these things are missing from ESO...yes your going to joing the Thieves Guild and be sent to rob that house...so is many other hundreds of people....imagine having to pull the Golden Glow Estate Heist or The Ultimate Heist with the Grey Fox in Oblivion in ESO world with every schmuck on the planet doing the same exact thing at the same exact time as you...it ruins it completely.

this is the point...ESO should have made an Elder Scrolls MMO....not focusing on bringing single player parts of the previous games into the MMO, but instead making a better MMO...The Cadwell Zones shouldn't have existed, once you got to 50, you moved on to Craglorn where "Group content" ya know what makes a thriving MMO takes center stage....the next DLC should have been the 2nd adventure Zone Murkmire released in Conjunction with The Imperial City for PVP which is already mostly a group affair anyways....and then continued focusing on group content from their....

Single player solo instances like Maelstrom Arena have no place in an MMO, especially not locking end game gear behind it...folks have an internet connection and an MMO to group with their friends, if they wanted a single player game, they would buy a single player game.

The entire Franchise is not heading in the direction of ESO, the single player franchise is headed in the same direction as Fallout 4 and vice versa and it doesn't even remotely resemble ESO, its based on a open sandbox world with real repercussions for your actions, player decisions effecting their worlds and relationships with the people in it, and making a very immersive world...all things ESO doesn't and can't do.

In Skyrim or ESO you murder innocents, and your followers such a Mjoll will flatout turn on you and attack you or leave your service...in Fallout 4 you shoot an innocent with Piper as your partner and she will turn on you and start shooting you...your actions and choices have benefits and consequences....

Its impossible to bring the true spirit of the single player TES games to an MMO, it simply won't work and ESO has proven this BUT its very 100% possible to make an MMO in TES world, but they gotta toss the single player nonsense...Craglorn was FULL everyday when going there matter...yes you had a few people grinding toons, but doing the daily quests, the 4 man delves, exploring the harsh world where the mobs were far to strong to solo...this brought players together...some of my fondest memories of this game are from Craglorn and running around in their with freinds doing quests and dailies.....Craglorn is probably one of the best zones ever created in terms of art and such after Cyrodiil the zone is just beautiful...i got there to farm Nirncrux and it makes me sad of all the wasted potential....all the DLC they ahve released is smostly solo content, the game won't survive that way....

99% of their development focus after the level 1-50 main quest should have been on PVP and PVE Adventure Zones(Craglorn, Murkmire), and 4 man dungeons, and 12 man trials....TG, DB should have been reconned out....it would be easy to explain the DB and Morag Tong are currently fighting their Shadow War and both organizations are pretty much neutered at this time, and The Thieves Guild is currently in shambles due to the war and losing Nocturnals favor due to someone else Stealong Nocturnals Cowl a few hundred years before Emer Daeroth does effectivly rendering both organizations inert for the period ESO is in, and focus on group content that keeps longterm subs.

they totlaly dropped the ball here, ZOS needed to leave it to Bethesda to bring the single player aspects of the series to life, and let ZOS has free reign to make a real MMO with lots of good group story oriented content...trying to put the single player aspects into an MMO just leaves you with a mess....imagine the state of this game right now had Craglorn, Upper Craglorn, Imperial City, and Murkmire been the only DLC with 1 new Trial in each one, All the previous trials scaled, and Orsimium being the 3rd Adventure Zone much like Upper and Lower Craglorn and Murkmire with yet another new trial and more 4 man content.

this game is starving for group end game content that is the life blood of an MMO and ZOS keeps putting out single player DLC and PVE grinding content in a PVP zone.

I am looking at things objectively...ESO does not do what Bethesda does well in the single player games which is capture Tamriels Atmosphere, and they don't do well with the MMO part because they are too busy trying to do what Bethesda does not realizing its simply not possible in an MMO.

ZOS need to focus on being an MMO and do nothing but release group content from here on out...any plans they have for any new zones should be Adventure Zones like Craglorn and should be focused on endgame group content and pvp, if folks want single player type of stuff, they can play Bethesda's single player installments...its time for ESO to be an MMO not a hybridization of 2 genres that doens't do either very well...there is so much potential here....so much they could tap with just a simple change in philosphy they could reach unimaginee heights...the hardcore PVe raid guilds have all but left, most of the hardcore PVP guilds have all but left and for the reason....no end game pve content for over a year and non pvp dlc at all for over a year....so all these people left...and it was a lot trust me....alot....the majority of the hardcore raiding and pvp guilds have left long ago not to return.....this could have been avoid by being an MMO instead of what it is currently...its a harsh reality.

Destiny sold 12 million copies on console because its an MMO...ESO sold 1.2 million copies between both consoles a month after launch.....the numbers speak for themselves...had ESO been soley an MMO in Tamriel instead of trying to be too much like a single player game, they would have never had to go B2P in the 1st place because those 700,00+ subs they had back in june-july of 2014 would still be playing the game and we would not even be having this discussion

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

That's a bunch of BS. MMO literally means Massively Multiplayer Online and by that meaning ESO is literally an MMORPG, just like WoW and Guild Wars. Well I guess it's not massively as not a lot of people play it.

Just shows Wrobels not the only one without a clue, even the director of ESO doesn't know what he's talking about (imo).

The point is that there are people posting "ESO should be like X because it is an MMO and MMOs have X". People thinking that way are mistaken. Don't claim that ESO must be a certain way because it is an MMO.

If people would stop promoting that erroneous logic, there wouldn't be a need for such statements.

Well what if they have X just like another MMO has X but ESO does this X without much effort or badly? What if that X is multiple X's and they use such vernacular to hide behind these words to not have to develop it further?

Just creating a chat because people are religiously defending it's not a traditional mmo but no one has a clue what a traditional MMO is.

I am not defending that "it is not a traditional MMO". I don't care if it is a traditional MMO.

If people want something in the game, I will judge the suggestion on its individual merits. If they want it because it is supposedly a trait of "traditional MMOs", that doesn't matter.

My point is that "an MMO needs that" is not a legitimate argument. Explain why ESO needs it. Explain why it will help ESO.

Poor execution of feature X can be criticized without vacuous arguments over what an MMO has to be.

I remember at launch there were constant discussions of "ESO is a WoW clone" and "ESO is missing this feature it should have because WoW and other MMOs have it". Thankfully, those arguments are less prominent now.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

MishMash wrote: »

"MF: Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG"

He is just catering to the outraged *** who want the game to require groups to do anything. In a true mmorpg you have the option to go off in the world solo and do your own thing.

In real life, you cant decide to wander off into the jungle and explore by yourself? Or you could take an entire group with you on the journey. Its completely up to you.

Huh?

The majority of ESO is soloable.

Was saying that he wouldnt call this a MMO because somewhere along the line people got it in their head that MMO = group only content. And the crybabies would throw fits if he dare spoke the word MMO.

And to the other guy who mentioned destiny, it sold so many copies because it was probably the most hyped up game ever other than maybe halo. Also when it came out there really weren't many big time games to play on next gen consoles. I almost bought it simply because of that fact.

ESO had no where near the publicity. Not to mention all the horrible reviews ESO had due to the delayed console release. I actually had the employees at gamestop tell me that ESO wasnt being released on console at all, ever. This was months after the console release was postponed. I wonder how many people they told that to and how many just forgot about the game and went and bought destiny. The hype train passed eso by big time. If people buy the hype, they buy the game, and there was none.

@RinaldoGandolphi

Another great post. Matt Firor should be looking at your posts

@Lysette
Unless you have statistics that show how casual people complete content I wouldn't speak for most. I play maybe 8 hours a week right now and speed through content. That's exploring, looting and listening to quest givers.

TG is very very very short. Even Matt Firor says it is 8+ hours of content. Even if you extrapolate that 8 hours over 3-4 months - the content is still short.

@Lysette Im sorry but i would like to see the stats you are basing your estimate on. Is it you? Do you judge hundrests of thousands of people by your play time? And no. 7h is not rushing. In fact on PTS i went through them in less than 4 - listening to all lines and all.