SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

I would never play those "Vanilla"-campaigns. I hate the notion that everybody has to be equal, no matter how much efford they put in their characters. It`s the gaming-equivalent to the participation trophy in schools.
<bläch>

As always with this discussion, we're running into two different camps. The RPG leaning camp, which your argument comes from. And the competitive gaming camp, which my argument comes from.

So just to explain things from my perspective, the competitiveness of a game is damaged when players aren't on an even standing.

That's absurd! There's no such thing as an even standing in competition in real life, why the hell should you expect it in a game? People have different skills and abilities and strengths and weaknesses in real life as in the game.

That's not how life works, but that is how competitive gaming works. You think Starcraft would have amounted to *** if one race was just straight up stronger by a landslide?

Also, I suspect you didn't understand my OP. This thread is not about balance.

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You learn to use your strengths as well as your weaknesses or you fail. Period. End of story. I agree with Uviryth! You want a trophy for being special when you're not.

hey now, I thought i was the one being antagonistic.

Huggalump wrote: »

Did I fit enough negatives into the title?

Anyhow, non-CP pvp is VERY good for the game. Everyone should be playing in it to encourage ZOS to open more non-CP campaigns. Non-CP is how the pvp should be in ESO.

Of course, it levels the playing field so new players aren't instantly turned off by pvp.

But another reason non-CP pvp is good for the game is because as CP numbers rise, pvp becomes worse. There are no cooldowns in this game, so it risks being a spamfest where player skill is irrelevant and the only determining factors are gear and stats. The only thing that can keep pvp from becoming this spam fest is resource management. Champion points make resource management far too easy. PVP becomes stupid once everyone's pumped enough into resource regen and cost reduction.

There's no excuse for not playing in the non-CP campaign. You'd have to straight up admit you can't cut it unless carried by CP.

Do the healthy thing for the game. Play in the non-CP campaign.

Non CP pvp is the epitome of boring where numbers trump everything as you can´t combine enough dmg with sustain in a template to eliminate players fast enough (without significant investment).

It´s stands for everything that´s wrong with eso pvp: Bring more players to win.

I rather play in a pvp environment where nobody cares about resources and i can kill stuff (with cp that is) than in an environment where nobody cares about resources either (seducer + cost reduction) but i can´t kill stuff bc dmg hp ratio is off.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Not tired it yet (I will), but I read someone else say that ttk was way down on the non-cp campaign. If this is true then it won't appeal to many people.

Actually playing on the No-CP campaign, can confirm TTK is more diverse. Those glass cannon builds we see everywhere with infinite sustain to maintain active defenses die faster and beefy tanks and warriors die slower. I actually held my own ground, by myself, as a Templar against a group of coordinated EP! Granted I died after a minute or two but I took 2 of them with me.

Derra wrote: »

Huggalump wrote: »

Did I fit enough negatives into the title?

Anyhow, non-CP pvp is VERY good for the game. Everyone should be playing in it to encourage ZOS to open more non-CP campaigns. Non-CP is how the pvp should be in ESO.

Of course, it levels the playing field so new players aren't instantly turned off by pvp.

But another reason non-CP pvp is good for the game is because as CP numbers rise, pvp becomes worse. There are no cooldowns in this game, so it risks being a spamfest where player skill is irrelevant and the only determining factors are gear and stats. The only thing that can keep pvp from becoming this spam fest is resource management. Champion points make resource management far too easy. PVP becomes stupid once everyone's pumped enough into resource regen and cost reduction.

There's no excuse for not playing in the non-CP campaign. You'd have to straight up admit you can't cut it unless carried by CP.

Do the healthy thing for the game. Play in the non-CP campaign.

Non CP pvp is the epitome of boring where numbers trump everything as you can´t combine enough dmg with sustain in a template to eliminate players fast enough (without significant investment).

It´s stands for everything that´s wrong with eso pvp: Bring more players to win.

I rather play in a pvp environment where nobody cares about resources and i can kill stuff (with cp that is) than in an environment where nobody cares about resources either (seducer + cost reduction) but i can´t kill stuff bc dmg hp ratio is off.

I find the CP campaigns to be epitome of Bring more players to win. With such high burst and healing, fighting even 2 people at once is too much to reasonably mitigate. On the No-CP campaign damage is not nearly as ridiculous nor is healing -- all numbers are lower, which makes defense matter more. Significantly more, from my present experience. As stated in the original draft, a heavily armored player can survive for a reasonable length of time against multiple attackers, even take one or two out before dying.

And ironically, ESO used to have the least numbers oriented PvP of all MMOs. Prior to Update 6, it was possible, with no hyperbole, for one defender to hold a gate against fifty attackers. This was through the use of CC, burst, sustain, reflections, mitigation, and most importantly: ultimates. Ultimates even today allow one to have the strength of many for a brief period. Prior to Update 6, ultimate was dynamically generated, which resulted in the more opponents you fought, the faster ultimate generated, to the point an ultimate could be up at all times. Even a costly one like Standard of Might. Hence ESO's PvP back in the day used to make numbers nearly meaningless. Having more people did put less stress on each person, allow them to recover resources and be less skilled/geared, but one person could still trump all advantages numbers bring with the right gear and abilities and enough skill.

This time did not come without its imbalances, namely the dynamic ultimate generation system of the time. It was a good system that rewarded fighting well (blocking on time, dodging, healing, countering correctly, etc.) but it also rewarded critical hits... it should be obvious why this was a flaw of the old system: critical rate can be increased to over 50%.

The primary reason cited for replacing the dynamic system with the static is because of the disparity between ultimate generation for dps and all other roles. As a tank, I gained my ultimate roughly twice per dungeon run, once for high cost ultimates. Dps, with their high crit, gained their ultimate up to ten times within a single boss fight.