So many are furious with the combat team development, what's the path forward?

OdinForge · March 2016

I hope ZOS turns this game around soon, the entire core of my PvP guild (myself included) have left to play other games.

We'd love to play ESO, but there is no denying it's been dug deeper and deeper into a hole every patch.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Sentences like that show you don't know as much about templars as you're trying to convince people you do. Breath hits 1 person for full, (and used to) then hit 2 others for half. That would be 20k + 10k + 10k = 40k.

Yeah your right.

Digiman · March 2016

Lack of communication between the community and the developers is a prime reason. Especially when ZoS is only replying to their ESO live segment.

Not many people don't like being forced to wake up early to watch a live stream of a game globally. It would be nice for more clarity in their design choices.

The next is the lack of design goals for each class. I think ZoS doesn't have a plan for what the class will be like in a years time or if they did they should share it. At the least this the community an idea of what the class will be like and whether it is worth playing it without suffering from the shock of absurd changes that make the class play completely different.

Best example is Sorcerer, from being a spell slinger to a shield popper to survive clearly changed the way the class plays because of the terrible changes to Light armor.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

@phillyboy7897

I don't want to see people leave the game either and it sucks when they do. Nobody who enjoys this game and wants it to succeed wants that, but people threaten to quit everytime there is an update and something changes. If your dedication to this game depends on whether someone else does what you expect them to. Boy are you in for a lot of disappointment and your not even gonna get a free dinner.

Players have been complaining since the game released about balance but few people care to think back at how unbalanced the game was when it was released. This is probably the most balanced it has ever been...

Good gamers know that you take what is giving to you and learn how to make the best out of it. Too many people think that their vision of the class is what the class should be. Nothing wrong with sharing your ideas but that is not how games have ever worked. Too many people try to play chess like it's tick-tack-toe and when it doesn't work they complain to the people who created chess.

It is always the controllers fault, or it's lag, their eyeball itched, whatever. There is always an excuse and when there is a forum. They make sure they let the whole world know it's not them, it's the game (class). So that is why I don't give much thought to the complaints of Templars unless I feel they are justified in some way.

Every class has it's own things that it excels at. But if your not capitalizing on the tools that were giving to you, or you don't try to understand what is giving to you and make something out of that. It doesn't matter what class you choice to play, you will always feel that they suck.

We are definitely not underperforming, especially in healing. BoL only healing 2 people instead of 3 is a nerf but in no way does it make the class unplayable. It will hurt the players who maybe don't have a good group or they relied on spamming it to get through content. I don't even consider myself a great PvE player when I had to heal and I honestly can't recall too many times when I have said to myself, "thank god BoL heals 3 people instead of just 2". The guy who is tanking the big bad boss always gets the big hit and if 3 other people didn't just get smashed. It was fine unless someone else got smashed harder than the tank, I would have to cast it twice. Now 1 less person can try to commit suicide. To me, that is a good thing...

As far as the rest of the line, the only other ability I used was Repentance. No change to that ability and Ritual still cleanses and got a buff to the heal when someone synergizes it. To me, I see this as an opportunity for better gameplay. What most people are overlooking is the fact that now (FINALLY) the Resto staff abilities are now effected by the Restoring Light passives and this also makes Stamplars alot better.

Tankers got a nice buff in the other Rune Focus morph, Minor Protection. If a Templar tank wanted that, they had to use Circle of Protection which costed Stamina. Bad idea for a tank so this is a nice buff along with the Minor Mending.

Adjustments will have to be made but if your heading out the door without trying, I don't have much sympathy for you.

Honestly, I wish I could speak for the other classes but Templar is only one I feel familiar enough with. (Forgiving my slip up before) So my only input on the topic is Templar but this applies to all classes.

phillyboy7897 · March 2016

So everyone else has no idea what theyre talking about got it. Its a brick wall man.

melodeath · March 2016

ive had my fair share of sinister remarks towards zos while having a love/hate relationship with the game.

i like a big chunk of this game.. but once you get to a point where you become quite good at the game or sink alot of time in improving your char with endgame pve and alot of pvp.. than you will comme across alot of bugs and balance decisions that dont really make much sense.

and the thing with bugs is..once you know the bugs that are present it becommes impossible to not pay attention to it..
and when those same bugs end up beeing abused for months and in alot of cases caused you to die in pvp or having to redo a vmsa no death run.. than it become quite nerv wrecking to see that these arent beeing fixed in a timely manner at all.

i'm sure they try their very best.. but after a certain time of having to deal with certain bugs..it becomes quite hard to not have rage moment on the forums.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

@phillyboy7897

A lot of people know what they are talking about. They bring up legitimate issues such as bugs and REAL balance issues. I'm a brickwall to the people that don't and post nerf or buff this, or this (class) sucks. I've been around so yeah I am thick skinned to this. Like I said, this happens everytime in every mmo but just for example of how ridiculous this gets here.

Go check out the posts about how Sorcerers were gimped, nerfed, blah blah when 1.6 hit. So many either quit or joined the NB bandwagon. Maybe a month later and that opinion changed and hasn't looked back since. Even look at 2.0, Bolt Escape gets nerfed and everyone says they are knocked down a bit. I don't need an opinion as history and the current status of the game proves me right.

cote-bmsb16_ESO · March 2016

Instead of ripping the rug out from under templars, they should be doing incremental patches, smaller patches and updates, rather than shoving gigabits of changes down our throats every few months. They could tweak abilities, get feedback, and then keep making small adjustments. But nope, lets just *** off their paying customers at once.

Zheg · March 2016

cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »

Instead of ripping the rug out from under templars, they should be doing incremental patches, smaller patches and updates, rather than shoving gigabits of changes down our throats every few months. They could tweak abilities, get feedback, and then keep making small adjustments. But nope, lets just *** off their paying customers at once.

To be fair, I don't need rugs, my Templar house has hardwood floors - I splurged.

Rapids nerf and lack of mobility is very noticeable in the genius permaroot meta the combat team brought to the playerbase.

Ffastyl · March 2016

I've read up to and including post #107 on page 4 and roughly another page of posts following my initial response.

Towards having more frequent balance/fix updates, the PTS could be utilized. The PTS can be updated frequently with incomplete or intermediary patch builds for player testing and feedback. Given it is also a confirmed Test environment, more bugs can be allowed into PTS builds for the sake of more frequent updates. This also means (for PC players) that we can log into the PTS whenever we want to see upcoming changes. Even prototypes that won't see Live for a year could be implemented in some PTS builds so it can receive early feedback.

Just by having the word Test in the name implies it is prone to change and not reflective of a final product so belly aching will be less with that understanding. For those without access to PTS, brief posts, or even unformatted PTS Patch Notes can be released with each build for a quick read and scope on the direction/progress of changes and fixes.

It's crowd sourcing Q&A in a sense.

The only caveat to this method is how much effort/time is required to prepare and update the PTS. The suggestion to just leave some bugs in exchange for faster build updates is to partially mitigate this unknown internal test/prep time.

hrothbern · March 2016

.

Ffastyl wrote: »

I've read up to and including post #107 on page 4 and roughly another page of posts following my initial response.

Towards having more frequent balance/fix updates, the PTS could be utilized. The PTS can be updated frequently with incomplete or intermediary patch builds for player testing and feedback. Given it is also a confirmed Test environment, more bugs can be allowed into PTS builds for the sake of more frequent updates. This also means (for PC players) that we can log into the PTS whenever we want to see upcoming changes. Even prototypes that won't see Live for a year could be implemented in some PTS builds so it can receive early feedback.

Just by having the word Test in the name implies it is prone to change and not reflective of a final product so belly aching will be less with that understanding. For those without access to PTS, brief posts, or even unformatted PTS Patch Notes can be released with each build for a quick read and scope on the direction/progress of changes and fixes.

It's crowd sourcing Q&A in a sense.

The only caveat to this method is how much effort/time is required to prepare and update the PTS. The suggestion to just leave some bugs in exchange for faster build updates is to partially mitigate this unknown internal test/prep time.

Sounds good !!!

It would also mean that if a dev has implemented a change with the coding people, or the coding guy himself....

they can test their change themselves in the sandbox and iterate their coding. (or escalate and give back their task if they run into issues that only became visible in the sandbox)

They should add an always actualised list to the PTS of changes compared to the live servers INCLUDING the status of that change.
Players can pick those changes to test, where they are "expert".

as example:
(is a bit detailed, but it makes it for me easier to outline what I mean)

Status 1001: changed code put into the sandbox and testing by ZOS has been started. The change is visible for us on the list, BUT we should NOT comment on it. But it meas that we know that "something is under construction".
(IIterations for ZOS internally 1001-1099)
next step:
Status 1101: first quick testing on the change has been done by ZOS and we are invited to test as well and comment. There is a log on this. A ZOS employee heading up the thread.
(Iterations 1101-1199)
next step:
Status 1201: Soft closure change. Change has survived the first bigg testing round and should have a reliability of >99% that it functions as intended. Further testing and commenting by us is not forbidden but probably a waste.
(Iterations 1201-1299)
Next step is either "ready" to go live at a convenient patch or removal (to test another solution for the same issue)

Getting a parallel thread in place for the wording of relevant tooltips could be very valuable as well.

I guess a lot of people will be very happy if they can contribute to the game in this or a similar way.

Reminds me BTW of a school teacher that once said to me: The best way to handle difficult kids in the class, that are only disturbing the lessons, mostly because they are not challenged enough, is to give them some little tasks and responsibilities.

Wreuntzylla · March 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

The path forward is dev turnover which happens in all MMO's. I'm not asking for anyone to be fired, but when a lead dev in charge has come out and said that these abilities in game are 'his children' and it is clear that he does not have a clue about SO MANY vital game mechanics, we will not see any meaningful progress until a change is made. The combat team has spent countless hours creating these systems (aoe caps, abilities in general, ideas of resource sustain and max dmg) and they can't see the forest for the trees. New blood will come in eventually as profits wane or key members ask for higher salary and only then will we get innovative ideas. But what do I know, maybe the higher ups have come out and said, "balance this game around solo PVE at all costs," and then I can understand some of the changes and lack of changes.

Everyone seems to assume that the lead dev is a moron and that there is not an underlying, unified effort on the part of ZoS.

However, people confuse population with dollars. The low or no spenders are largely irrelevant to revenue. If 1 type of player spends $1k/mos in the cash shop and 10 of a different type of player spend $15/mos, guess which type of player ZoS will tailor the game towards? The type of person that spends the most money in the cash shop. This type of player is time limited and wants a feeling of satisfaction after dealing with their boss all day and without a ton of effort. So, pew pew players. And once the game is tailored in this way, more affluent players gravitate to that game. The only reason overall population is a concern is that there is a population threshold after which a game appears to be dead.

Somewhere online there is a study on this type strategy that is based on real data. The revenue difference is eye popping. A small percentage of players provide a large percentage of a gaming company's revenue when there is a cash shop.

So, in order to figure out if ZoS is clueless or not, you have to look both at discrete changes and changes over time. ZoS' changes over time are continuously moving the game further and further towards a high DPS, low survivability meta similar to an FPS. If you look at discrete changes, you would think ZoS is targeting templars and DKs. However, if you look at the history of recent patches, it's a unified effort. For example, the NB sap tank took a huge nerf this patch although for some reason it is rarely discussed.

It's an ongoing process because ZoS built the game for a subscription model. Now they are changing it to fit the B2P, cash shop model. Players hate change in general and making this change in one step would be disastrous. Instead, they are spreading it over a year or two.

Wreuntzylla · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Tankers got a nice buff in the other Rune Focus morph, Minor Protection. If a Templar tank wanted that, they had to use Circle of Protection which costed Stamina. Bad idea for a tank so this is a nice buff along with the Minor Mending.

Let's not go all crazy here.

Almost no content exists where standing in a small circle works. Or having to repeatedly cast your circle at the expense of some other ability. Further, Templars are resource starved compared to other classes and most will not take this morph over the one that provides magicka. A niche ability at best.

Jade1986 · March 2016

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

Oh for the love of god don't use the metrics argument.....Even in in game chat the second you bring up DK balancing, heavy armor, etc everyone and their mother chimes in talking about how awful the balancing is. There has never been an in game survey about game balance, if there was, you would see TONS of people agreeing with the OP.

FortheloveofKrist · March 2016

2 cents: I love this game. Even when there are changes I don't like. I can't stop playing it. HELP ME!

xarguideb17_ESO · March 2016

The game is now more balanced than ever.

Ffastyl · March 2016

ESO is more balanced than it ever has been, but it is not at a satisfactory balance.

Turelus · March 2016

Time to stop following this thread, it's just become the same whine and argue as every other one on the forums.

I hope ZOS got some good feedback in the early part at least.

Jhunn · March 2016

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

The game is now more balanced than ever.

I take it you weren't playing in 1.5.

Tankqull · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

@phillyboy7897

If you read English then why are you saying I said it was cool to nerf Templars? Just because I disagree with the doom crowd screaming Templars are crap now doesn't mean I am picking a fight. Your first post was not the reason I responded the way I did, it was your second where you got disrespectful so you got dealt it back.

Maybe on the console BoL isn't such a big deal, but on PC BoL was healing 3 people for almost 20k. That is an instant that heals 60k damage. It's OP bro especially considering you can be a zombie and heal through 90% of the content with this ability alone. In 4 man content, as long as people aren't stupid and a time comes when you need to use it; rarely ever does a 3rd person need the heal. So when you write half a post justifying the reason for nerfs, I would have thought you'd understand.

As far as the abilities you claim nobody uses. I know you have your favorite abilities but people do use javelin for example.

I agree Purifying Light sucks but the reason why is when you time it with Detonation and Dawnbreaker/Ice Comet damage, it 1 shot people at 100% health. Seeing that Ice Comet is unreflectable now, leaving Purifying Ritual like it was would of been OP as hell. You also forgot Radiant Oppression being undodgeable again which was a real PITA. Ritual nerfed? It was never meant to cancel projectiles like it did and the heal wasn't the reason to use it.

Sentences like that show you don't know as much about templars as you're trying to convince people you do. Breath hits 1 person for full, (and used to) then hit 2 others for half. That would be 20k + 10k + 10k = 40k.

and no one is doing 20k on the primary heal in pvp, my hihgest self heal with all increasing buffs and circumstances running was a critical 10.5k(no longer possible now due to changes in TG). in normal situations i´m healing persons in pvp for ~5k on the primary part and 2,5k for the two (no only one) secondary heals. (equip: kagre, will, archmage, 501cp/80 points blessing, mag/stam reg drinks)

Tankqull · March 2016

Jhunn wrote: »

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

The game is now more balanced than ever.

I take it you weren't playing in 1.5.

1.5 was horrible in regards of DKs...

Solariken · March 2016

I'd just like to mention that I have made ONE post so far in the CU forums and it contains TWO responses from a lead developer, and CSE is a company that is in the middle of crunch time on their way to beta release, which of course means they are working super hard. That was the same day I cancelled my ESO sub. I'll keep playing PvP in ESO, but only until CU drops, then I'll #seeyouwheniCU.

Essiaga · March 2016

I think there needs to be a Class Mission Statement written up by ZOS and followed by ZOS. A character should have a feel to it and that feel needs to remain consistence.

I started a templar day one. I doesn't feel the same. It feels squishy and weak, but solid as DPS. I then started DK after 3 months. It doesn't feel the same. If feels squishy and weak, and OK-ish DPS. Haven't played since TG dropped. Here's hoping.

I then started a Sorc and found it too easy and to this day it still feels pretty much the same. GG. It felt exactly as expected only more tanky. When got bored of the Sorc I started a NB which I found boring as well but again almost exactly what I expected.

... Essentially the classes were all as advertised. That's no longer the case.

Now everyone is pure damage. Templar and DK mitigation is weaker and it's easier to survive as a NB or Sorc ... AND they have the highest DPS. What drew me to my top 2 classes are the mitigation and healing. While they were a bit OP at these aspects at one time they just feel underwhelming at this point. DK retains the skills (though with Nerfs to Cinder and Shield) but the Templar lost Blinding Flashes and replaced it with an execute. I get that miss chance felt off, but it could have been replaces with dodge chance or Maim, etc. Eclipse has been nerfed to the dirt, and below. Sun Shield (along with igneous and DragonBlood) have been Battle Nerfed into worthlessness. Now Cleansing Ritual doesn't absorb projectiles. Whats left?

The class just feels nothing like it used to. Nerfs to mitigation are replaced with buffs to damage (then the damage gets nerfed for being OP). Those are not the buffs we long time PC Templar are looking for. Console games only know about these things from reading us complain about them. So many OT (Original Templars) are gone from the game or at least the class in favor of greener pastures.

DK and Templar used to be the 1vX classes, while Sorc and NB were more single target burst/mobility builds. We used to tank many and kill a few if we were good. Now we pretty much stand by trees or blend in with the zerg so we don't get exposed. When your best defense as a Stand Your Ground class is to run for LOS then it simply can not be classified as a stand your ground class.

You can't scale healing and mitigation off the same thing you scale DPS on and expect things to remain balance. Battle Spirit is showing you that. Healing is OP and you nerf Templar mitigation to make up for it. Hardened Ward is OP in PVE which makes it necessary to nerf ALL shields in PVP, which has hurts Templars and DK ability to Stand Your Ground. Hard/Soft caps can keep things in balance or ZOS could make skills self balancing.

Scale healing and mitigation off of the non-DPS stats. Health and regens. That way the hardest hitters aren't the best tanks and healers. Make it so you have to build to be BETTER at healing and mitigation (specifically shields) by SACRIFICING DPS, rather then stacking it. How else will balance be achieved?

So as a Templar who just wants to be OP I'd like my healing nerfed, my mitigation returned, and my DPS to be reasonable so that I can get rekt a little slower, with out the dependence on 'self' heal that might heal 2 other people instead of me.

I know many of you will adapt to what ever and put up with it. I want to play they way I enjoy and have options. I never cared for pure DPS builds. I always play a healing or mitigation class and always end up seeing it became a squishy DD class because the dev's can't figure out how to balance healing in PVE vs PVP. I had high hopes ESO would be different, but it's turning out the same.

Animal_Mother · March 2016

Solariken wrote: »

I'd just like to mention that I have made ONE post so far in the CU forums and it contains TWO responses from a lead developer, CSE is a company that is in the middle of crunch time on their way to beta release, which of course means they are working super hard. That was the same day I cancelled my ESO sub. I'll keep playing PvP in ESO, but only until CU drops, then I'll #seeyouwheniCU.

I thnk ZOS responses are getting a little better with devs commenting recently on some of the bugs suddenly appearing in the last patch. Hopefully, they will keep this up in the future.

It might be near suicidal for a ZOS rep to post in a thread like this one, or the Templar thread, since they have ignored these for too long.

rfennell_ESO · March 2016

Jhunn wrote: »

I take it you weren't playing in 1.5.

Everyone spread out and use the resto staff channel on him!

timidobserver · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

@phillyboy7897

If you read English then why are you saying I said it was cool to nerf Templars? Just because I disagree with the doom crowd screaming Templars are crap now doesn't mean I am picking a fight. Your first post was not the reason I responded the way I did, it was your second where you got disrespectful so you got dealt it back.

Maybe on the console BoL isn't such a big deal, but on PC BoL was healing 3 people for almost 20k. That is an instant that heals 60k damage. It's OP bro especially considering you can be a zombie and heal through 90% of the content with this ability alone. In 4 man content, as long as people aren't stupid and a time comes when you need to use it; rarely ever does a 3rd person need the heal. So when you write half a post justifying the reason for nerfs, I would have thought you'd understand.

As far as the abilities you claim nobody uses. I know you have your favorite abilities but people do use javelin for example.

I agree Purifying Light sucks but the reason why is when you time it with Detonation and Dawnbreaker/Ice Comet damage, it 1 shot people at 100% health. Seeing that Ice Comet is unreflectable now, leaving Purifying Ritual like it was would of been OP as hell. You also forgot Radiant Oppression being undodgeable again which was a real PITA. Ritual nerfed? It was never meant to cancel projectiles like it did and the heal wasn't the reason to use it.

I stopped at 3 people getting healed for 20k. Is it too much to ask that you spend 2 minutes learning how a skill works before going on a rant about why it needs to be nerfed.

GreenSoup2HoT · March 2016

Can someone tell me what CU is?

Tankqull · March 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Can someone tell me what CU is?

Camelot Unchained, another MMO in the pipe but purely PvP centered - with an awesome communication and dedication to the game by the dev team.

Zheg · March 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Can someone tell me what CU is?

Camelot Unchained. An upcoming massive RvRvR game focused almost exclusively on RvRvR pvp and has minimal pve content. It's about to hit Beta 1 in <1 month, and almost every major pvp guild in ESO (at least on NA PC) is moving to the game. I'd anticipate launch to be in about a year, but that's just an opinion.

Inarre · March 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

when there is 8 different classes of players all asking for a nerf to the other class, who do the devs listen to?

All of them, that is when the game is in perfect balance. (rock paper scissors)

Its when no one is complaining about a vertain class or two thats when you know theres an imbalance