Idea on fixing vampires

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

Before I start, I'm going state I've played since PS4 launch and only as a magicka vamp NB so that is my deep understanding of the game so I hope everyone 's input on my idea from other class perspectives can support or shoot holes in it.

Problem with Vampires

Ok so let's admit it, we suck. ::drum roll:: there is really no reason to play a vamp. Even devouring swarm doesn't justify all of the negatives of being a vampire
1) weak to the most common magic element, fire
2) timers for stages of vampirism make it prohibitive to be anything but stage 1 or 4
3) every skill in fighters guild destroys us way faster than ww
4) ww can chose when to be weak at a cost of an ultimate (when they want to equip it)

My vision for vampires

I think vampires should be a lifestyle. If we are always a vampire vs choosing when to be a ww, it should be a unique play style. So without further delay...

1) replace savage feeding with a passive "Sanguine's Elixir" this would make all powers, dodge rolls, block, etc cost health instead of magicka or stamina. This then makes vampires obviously more tanky by focusing them on hp, but has the risk of helping kill yourself by attacking and using your health as currency. If you prefer just playing with stages and skills but using hp to fight. This also has a balance as there are no general passives for reducing hp cost for casting (except mages guild skill) and it should stay that way.

2) cut stages of vampirism from 4 to 2. Face it we already play this way anyways so why fight it? Stages should last 1 game day. Stage 1 has a 5% fire damage increase but has -95% hp regen, stage 2 has 30% fire damage but +25% hp regen. This gives a bonus for being in either stage. From a 'lore' standpoint make this a new strain of vampirism where regular feeding keeps you almost human while skipping makes you a blood raged monster. Feeding at anytime resets stage 1 timer.

3) stage 1 you have your normal complexion but dark eyes and normal red eyes while stage 2 makes you the current pale skin and eyes that glow red similar to the soul shriven costume.

4) supernatural recovery can stay for those that play stage 1 non Saguine elixir vamps. Remove the vamp skill requirement since we are always affected by vampirism vs ww that chose.

5) undeath - change damage mitigation to healing received

6) unnatural resistance - change to -75% health regen in stage 1 or 25% fire damage received in stage 2

7) dark stalker - add a 25% reduction in detection range

8) poison mist should switch to ice mist given the recent changes to cp and should tick 1x per second at current values

9)elusive mist should suppress cc upon cast similar to the dot suppression on dark cloak with the TG update

10) clouding swarm should counter the timer for magelight and clear mark, it's an ultimate, you can't spam it.

That's it. The vampirism change would support 2 different play styles which you could almost call 2 different strains of a new type of vampirism. It'll align the skill line with recent changes to the game and have a pro/con of being in either stage of vampirism while making it easier to stay in your stage of choice.

Alright, flame away and feel free to add your thoughts based on your other class experience.

nine9six · March 2016

Bailed on Vamp with the whole "must slot an ability but enjoy that fire damage" change.

I think the feeding system should be reversed. Stronger when recently Fed, not Starved. For other ideas, it's too early in the AM for me.

Arkvoril · March 2016

I agree that Vamps need a good looking over. The only reason I keep it is for the RP value. Other than that it isn't worth it.

Alorier · March 2016

Dropped it off my Templar wasn't worth all the grief in PvP and heavy based fire dungeons, still have it on my Nightblade but also thinking of dropping it

Inarre · March 2016

I still see about half of cyrodiil as vamps

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

Ark I'm in the same boat, I like the idea of vamps more than actually being one which is sad considering how fun other es games made it

Sevalaricgirl · March 2016

Yup, definitely cured vampirism because it was a waste. The timer was just too short and I was feeding more than I was questing because even with a nightblade, I had to catch an enemy alone to feed. When there was 2 or more enemies in a group, I couldn't feed, someone would always see me.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

Inarre wrote: »

I still see about half of cyrodiil as vamps

Yeah, there are a lot of situations where the current iteration of Vamp works well in Cyrodill: Gank squad, overlapping devouring swarm. For me though, while I am still a vamp, its majorly lackluster.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Yup, definitely cured vampirism because it was a waste. The timer was just too short and I was feeding more than I was questing because even with a nightblade, I had to catch an enemy alone to feed. When there was 2 or more enemies in a group, I couldn't feed, someone would always see me.

That wasn't a major issue for me as a NB but I stay at stage 4 permanently now so I don't notice this issue. The small window for each stage is such a pain in the butt to manage and stay at the one you want, that's why I'm suggesting just making it 2 and make the stage last a game day to reduce maintenance. Nothing worse than playing a dungeon and losing stages while doing it if you don't want to.

dimensional · March 2016

I don't agree with even the most basic premise of this thread. I'm sure more could always be done for balance but my vampire is an effective killing machine, idk what you're talking about.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

@dimensional I'm not focusing on this as an improvement in killing. I don't think vampires need help killing, but I look at vampires taking it in the shorts on survivability. City of Ash on vet... NFW, big group on group PvP... NFW, and on and on.

The basic premise of the thread is unlike ww, which is the only comparable world skill, you choose vampire and die easier for no major tradeoff in killing power or speed. I personally feel any up in killing power would make them OP, but survivability is a major issue for this skill line and, as you can see with the mist suggestions, many of skills have not evolved with many of the recent changes to the game.

dimensional · March 2016

IDK I just don't see a problem with it. They get a debuff and it's a tradeoff for the skills that they get. Mist and Bats both help me out in more situations than I can count and I benefit greatly from the stealth passive and supernatural recovery. I just simply don't agree with this thread.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

@dimensional IMHO I don't nessecarily agree that the risk is balanced to the reward. I love vampire and I've been one since 2nd week of play and don't really want to drop it (probably never will).

My general issue, in comparison, is that having 100% access to skills while having the debuff 100% of the time as a vampire is not equitable to choice of access for choice of when to be debuffed for WW. I don't want to change the dynamic of a vampire being a part time debuff, nor do I want to cry nerf on WW.

I'm more in the mind set of a few tweaks, and some updates on skills that are outdated with some of the patches and the TG DLC would do a lot and could open some other interesting ways to play ala my suggestion on casting from HP.

dimensional · March 2016

Fair enough. I always think there's room for balance changes no matter what the class/ability/skill. I am happy with where it's at right now, however.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

**high five**
lol

yelloweyedemon · March 2016

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

I don't necessarily think they should be rare, I just feel they should not be the only choice (as was the case early on). Personally, the only reason I use vampire anymore is either for kicks/achievements or Dark Stalker passive. While the 10% regenerations are nice, having to slot a vampire skill is not so nice. Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm. I say this as someone who actually favors playing 'clean' of sanguivoria or wolf disease. I'd really like to see the Devs offer a mutually exclusive World/Guild skill that offers an alternative to Wolf/Vampire.

I can't put my finger on what I want with the Stages, but I have to admit I don't like the way they currently work either, and I don't like the notion that you have all the disabilities of being a vampire but none of the benefits unless you slot one. This wouldn't be so bad if bat swarm on the back bar counted. In fact I wish this were the case with all buffs based on active skills. It would also open a lot more options up to everyone.

dimensional · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm.

Drain life does suck but Mist Form is definitely worthwhile for me, I use it with success every time I play my vamp. and both of the Bats abilities are great.

rfennell_ESO · March 2016

The only vampire changes I would make are:

Revert the regen change that required an ability on bar to be active.

Lower the increased damage you take from fire.

Lower the increased damage you take from fighter's guild passives.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm.

Drain life does suck but Mist Form is definitely worthwhile for me, I use it with success every time I play my vamp. and both of the Bats abilities are great.

I've almost never had Mist Form's defensive elements save me. You get snared. The damage reduction is something I'm not even aware of, they hit me anyway. Finally, the movement speed doesn't stack with sprint like blade cloak or retreating maneuvers. I simply feel there's better escape systems out there, and you can sprint with those, unlike Mist Form.

dimensional · March 2016

Mist Form is great for tight, close quarter AoE defense, and that is what I use it for. Much better than other alternatives in that respect. For open field PvP it's not as good.

PS4_ZeColmeia · March 2016

Elusive mist is a great skill and removes the need for the shade morph that you can teleport back with. Poison mist both does t do damage at a level that is worthwhile nor fits with the cp change nor is a reasonable trade for elusive mist speed.

dimensional · March 2016

Yeah I mean to say I use the elusive mist morph.

fastolfv_ESO · March 2016

everyone leaves out batswarm has no target limit like every other ability in the entire game, and people spam the crap out of mist form to escape. Every last ability might not be useful for grp play but vamps are powerful and it more than makes up for the small amount of extra fire damage especially in pvp, which is why half of cyro are vamps. Lets not forget also that after Thieves Guild there are 2 CP skills that effect batswarms damage now just to make it that much more OP

yelloweyedemon · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

I don't necessarily think they should be rare, I just feel they should not be the only choice (as was the case early on). Personally, the only reason I use vampire anymore is either for kicks/achievements or Dark Stalker passive. While the 10% regenerations are nice, having to slot a vampire skill is not so nice. Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm. I say this as someone who actually favors playing 'clean' of sanguivoria or wolf disease. I'd really like to see the Devs offer a mutually exclusive World/Guild skill that offers an alternative to Wolf/Vampire.

I can't put my finger on what I want with the Stages, but I have to admit I don't like the way they currently work either, and I don't like the notion that you have all the disabilities of being a vampire but none of the benefits unless you slot one. This wouldn't be so bad if bat swarm on the back bar counted. In fact I wish this were the case with all buffs based on active skills. It would also open a lot more options up to everyone.

Yes they should be rare. Lore-wise they are outlaws...

Also Dark Stalker should not exist in the first place. It gives you a game-changing advantage in PvP. Vampires had pretty much no cons. early in the game and that's why pretty much everyone was a vamp. At least now they have counters.

I'm sorry you don't get to have passives like Dark Stalker and walk away with just small drawbacks...

At the moment they are on their original statement about vamps and WWs. You can chose to be one at your own risk. You don't *have* to be one, and you are not weaker by being human.

failkiwib16_ESO · March 2016

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

everyone leaves out batswarm has no target limit like every other ability in the entire game, and people spam the crap out of mist form to escape. Every last ability might not be useful for grp play but vamps are powerful and it more than makes up for the small amount of extra fire damage especially in pvp, which is why half of cyro are vamps. Lets not forget also that after Thieves Guild there are 2 CP skills that effect batswarms damage now just to make it that much more OP

And this is actually the reason why I sometimes slot fighters guild skills when I do pvp. So many pvp'ers are vamps, it's easy AP farming.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

I don't necessarily think they should be rare, I just feel they should not be the only choice (as was the case early on). Personally, the only reason I use vampire anymore is either for kicks/achievements or Dark Stalker passive. While the 10% regenerations are nice, having to slot a vampire skill is not so nice. Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm. I say this as someone who actually favors playing 'clean' of sanguivoria or wolf disease. I'd really like to see the Devs offer a mutually exclusive World/Guild skill that offers an alternative to Wolf/Vampire.

I can't put my finger on what I want with the Stages, but I have to admit I don't like the way they currently work either, and I don't like the notion that you have all the disabilities of being a vampire but none of the benefits unless you slot one. This wouldn't be so bad if bat swarm on the back bar counted. In fact I wish this were the case with all buffs based on active skills. It would also open a lot more options up to everyone.

Yes they should be rare. Lore-wise they are outlaws...

Also Dark Stalker should not exist in the first place. It gives you a game-changing advantage in PvP. Vampires had pretty much no cons. early in the game and that's why pretty much everyone was a vamp. At least now they have counters.

I'm sorry you don't get to have passives like Dark Stalker and walk away with just small drawbacks...

At the moment they are on their original statement about vamps and WWs. You can chose to be one at your own risk. You don't *have* to be one, and you are not weaker by being human.

I just think they should offer alternative ways to similar ends (dark stalker). It would be nice if the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood offered a similar passive, and it would make sense.

yelloweyedemon · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

I don't necessarily think they should be rare, I just feel they should not be the only choice (as was the case early on). Personally, the only reason I use vampire anymore is either for kicks/achievements or Dark Stalker passive. While the 10% regenerations are nice, having to slot a vampire skill is not so nice. Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm. I say this as someone who actually favors playing 'clean' of sanguivoria or wolf disease. I'd really like to see the Devs offer a mutually exclusive World/Guild skill that offers an alternative to Wolf/Vampire.

I can't put my finger on what I want with the Stages, but I have to admit I don't like the way they currently work either, and I don't like the notion that you have all the disabilities of being a vampire but none of the benefits unless you slot one. This wouldn't be so bad if bat swarm on the back bar counted. In fact I wish this were the case with all buffs based on active skills. It would also open a lot more options up to everyone.

Yes they should be rare. Lore-wise they are outlaws...

Also Dark Stalker should not exist in the first place. It gives you a game-changing advantage in PvP. Vampires had pretty much no cons. early in the game and that's why pretty much everyone was a vamp. At least now they have counters.

I'm sorry you don't get to have passives like Dark Stalker and walk away with just small drawbacks...

At the moment they are on their original statement about vamps and WWs. You can chose to be one at your own risk. You don't *have* to be one, and you are not weaker by being human.

I just think they should offer alternative ways to similar ends (dark stalker). It would be nice if the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood offered a similar passive, and it would make sense.

Its not gonna happen and they pretty much said so. DB skill line will be tied to the justice system just like thieves guild is.

quote from Matt Firor in an interview:

MMORPG: How, if at all, will Thieves Guild tie into the Dark Brotherhood?
MF: In terms of story, it won’t. However, Dark Brotherhood skills will also piggy-back onto the Justice system, in that you’ll be doing a lot of sneaking. The difference is that in Thieves Guild you are sneaking and stealing, and Dark Brotherhood, you will be sneaking and stabbing.

vamp_emily · March 2016

nine9six wrote: »

I think the feeding system should be reversed. Stronger when recently Fed, not Starved.

I agree with this, i should be stronger after feeding. I haven't fed my vamps for months, there is no reason to.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2016

In my opinion:

1) They need to fix Drain Essence and bring it back to the healing it provided pre-patch where they changed it from healing 150% of the damage done to healing 10% of your missing damage. This change by itself would be a huge plus of Vamps.

2) Mist Form... you're turning to mist, yet can still be snared?

3) Really they need to just devote a lot of love towards both Vampires and Werewolves. Heavier towards the Vampire side, but both sides seem to have way more crushing negatives than bonuses. I mean, you're undead... you should be tougher than they are right now.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Anyone remembers when the game launched, vamps were so unbalanced to the point where 95% of ESO population were vamps pretty much...

No thanks. We are playing an ES game not vampires vs werewolves...

Both vamps and WWs should be rare. Right now vamps do have their advantages without the need for one to be a vamp.

I don't necessarily think they should be rare, I just feel they should not be the only choice (as was the case early on). Personally, the only reason I use vampire anymore is either for kicks/achievements or Dark Stalker passive. While the 10% regenerations are nice, having to slot a vampire skill is not so nice. Drain life is a terrible skill. Mist Form has lost all semblance of being worthwhile. I still like Devouring Swarm. I say this as someone who actually favors playing 'clean' of sanguivoria or wolf disease. I'd really like to see the Devs offer a mutually exclusive World/Guild skill that offers an alternative to Wolf/Vampire.

I can't put my finger on what I want with the Stages, but I have to admit I don't like the way they currently work either, and I don't like the notion that you have all the disabilities of being a vampire but none of the benefits unless you slot one. This wouldn't be so bad if bat swarm on the back bar counted. In fact I wish this were the case with all buffs based on active skills. It would also open a lot more options up to everyone.

Yes they should be rare. Lore-wise they are outlaws...

Also Dark Stalker should not exist in the first place. It gives you a game-changing advantage in PvP. Vampires had pretty much no cons. early in the game and that's why pretty much everyone was a vamp. At least now they have counters.

I'm sorry you don't get to have passives like Dark Stalker and walk away with just small drawbacks...

At the moment they are on their original statement about vamps and WWs. You can chose to be one at your own risk. You don't *have* to be one, and you are not weaker by being human.

I just think they should offer alternative ways to similar ends (dark stalker). It would be nice if the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood offered a similar passive, and it would make sense.

Its not gonna happen and they pretty much said so. DB skill line will be tied to the justice system just like thieves guild is.

quote from Matt Firor in an interview:

MMORPG: How, if at all, will Thieves Guild tie into the Dark Brotherhood?
MF: In terms of story, it won’t. However, Dark Brotherhood skills will also piggy-back onto the Justice system, in that you’ll be doing a lot of sneaking. The difference is that in Thieves Guild you are sneaking and stealing, and Dark Brotherhood, you will be sneaking and stabbing.

I'm not clear how this Q&A rebuts anything I just suggested. He's just saying here that like the Thieves Guild, the DB will afford passives that help with sneaking and stabbing, and Dark Stalker certainly helps with that. I'm not saying this is what it WILL do, but I just don't see a clear yay or nay here. The Thieves Guild passives btw offer you a way to lower detection, which is definitely helpful.

By the way I'm really hoping DB DLC will see some improvements to alchemy, and that it will also make poisoning more of a 'thing' in this game.