So many are furious with the combat team development, what's the path forward?

Zheg · March 2016

HebrewHatchet wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

I have to agree here. Any modern development team listens to and reacts to data, and that data is undoubtedly collected right there in the code. They can see if nightblades die less often than sorcerers, if dragonknights put out less damage on average than the other classes, or how often Templars cast breath of life compared to their other class skills. It's naive to think that they don't have a rich interface that gives them deep insight with mathematical precision with regards to how the game runs, how the game is balanced, and how players play.

The discussion here is just another data point that, frankly, has much less weight than the numbers that their platform aggregates. In fact, I would argue that this forum is more of a public relations platform than anything else and that whenever the forum thinks that they affected something, it is actually just a case of misattributed causality, and that the change was going to happen regardless of the discussions on the forums.

The difference is that numbers need to be interpreted (and the extent that ZOS even uses such tools remains a complete mystery given their shroud of secrecy and refusal to improve communication), and can be interpreted incorrectly. Breath of Life is cast more than any other templar skill according to the 'interface'? Maybe that means it's OP and needs to be nerfed, maybe that means it isn't a strong enough heal and has to be spammed for healing to be effective, maybe that means there are a lack of better healing alternatives, maybe that means the other templar skills are just not working/balanced correctly and more templars decide to be healers. All of those interpretations lead to completely different outcomes and have completely different root problems - the forums and player feedback provide a guide to interpreting the raw numbers, and at least on some fronts, the combat team has chosen to go it solo even though the feedback has remained static for years and counter to what the combat team seems to think the solution needs to be. No one is asking for the combat team to listen to every single post or every single feedback, but when the feedback is consistent over the course of years and the players just keep getting angrier and angrier - maybe the combat team needs to look unto themselves and their vision as being the problem.

FatKidHatchets · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Please note I do agree with those saying ZOS can do better, I believe so as well and have asked on the forums and in messages many times for better communication from them. However we also seem to forget the that before what we have now it was even worse.

The road ahead posts that were given in the past were (sorry to say) not exactly what's being asked for here. Go back and read them and it's all generic "we will bring x system, no ETA" "we're working on lag" "we're continuing our fight on bots!" etc.

What we're asking for is more of a development insight post, or a DevBlog.
An article written by the lead developer of that field (this case Wrobel) saying

Two of the first questions asked to him were mine, and it's not that I didn't like the answers given, the problem was that the answers he gave were nonsensical and frankly, startlingly indicative of a lack of knowledge of game mechanics - particularly for the combat lead. As an example, one of my questions was whether he was comfortable with templars being more heavily impacted by the rapid maneuvers nerf since they are more likely than any other class to heal/buff another player and thereby lose their own rapids buff. His answer, templars can use Honor of the Dead to heal themselves - indicating he is either unaware of how smart healing works and how that's just as likely to heal the random pug next to you as it yourself, or that he is unaware Honor of the Dead is not a self-based heal like dragon's blood. The answer did not fit the reality of the in-game mechanics. Responses like that were hardly limited to one question, which only furthered the inclination to make more memes about how ridiculous the combat team development and viewpoints have become.

Zheg wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Please note I do agree with those saying ZOS can do better, I believe so as well and have asked on the forums and in messages many times for better communication from them. However we also seem to forget the that before what we have now it was even worse.

The road ahead posts that were given in the past were (sorry to say) not exactly what's being asked for here. Go back and read them and it's all generic "we will bring x system, no ETA" "we're working on lag" "we're continuing our fight on bots!" etc.

What we're asking for is more of a development insight post, or a DevBlog.
An article written by the lead developer of that field (this case Wrobel) saying: This is our plans for X, we plan to achieve it with Y, the issues we face are X.

However the moment he takes the time out to write that and it gets published the entire thread will be "WHY YOU IGNORE TEMPLARS!!!" "JUST QUIT!" "LOL DOESN'T PLAY HIS OWN GAME" and nothing actually thanking him for giving us that insight and very few posts saying "Hey Wrobel, you spoke about X here maybe a possible solution you didn't think of is Y"

Considering that response he would get (and honestly can you say that wouldn't be the response given?) then why would he/they waste their time on that blog. Sure it makes it look like communication is going better, but no one will care for what's said only that none of their personal issues were addressed.

Also we had over an hour of Q&A on ESO Live with Wrobel, he answered a lot of questions for us, just once again some people didn't like the answers given, so they decided ZOS are not listening.

Two of the first questions asked to him were mine, and it's not that I didn't like the answers given, the problem was that the answers he gave were nonsensical and frankly, startlingly indicative of a lack of knowledge of game mechanics - particularly for the combat lead. As an example, one of my questions was whether he was comfortable with templars being more heavily impacted by the rapid maneuvers nerf since they are more likely than any other class to heal/buff another player and thereby lose their own rapids buff. His answer, templars can use Honor of the Dead to heal themselves - indicating he is either unaware of how smart healing works and how that's just as likely to heal the random pug next to you as it yourself, or that he is unaware Honor of the Dead is not a self-based heal like dragon's blood. The answer did not fit the reality of the in-game mechanics. Responses like that were hardly limited to one question, which only furthered the inclination to make more memes about how ridiculous the combat team development and viewpoints have become.

You do realize Honor the Dead heals you plus 1 ally, it infact is a self heal. It also has nothing to do with rapids. Nor does rapid have anything to do with being a templar. I am not sure you know what you are talking about my friend.

Zheg · March 2016

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

You do realize Honor the Dead heals you plus 1 ally, it infact is a self heal. It also has nothing to do with rapids. Nor does rapid have anything to do with being a templar. I am not sure you know what you are talking about my friend.

Actually, the complete opposite, and you're wrong on both accounts. At least on this subject, I most certainly do know what I'm talking about.

Honor the Dead heals one person, one. Whether it ends up being yourself, or an ally, it heals one person. Here is the tooltip: "beacon your inner light, healing yourself OR a wounded ally for X health". It is NOT a self-heal, it is a single heal that functions off smart healing, it will go to you or to a nearby ally depending on who is lower in health. A skill like green dragon blood will always only heal you, and therefore is a self-heal.

The new nerf to rapids is that it will be removed as soon as you buff or heal someone, which, go figure, is what will end up happening whenever you use a templar heal (since breath/HtD are smart healing) unless you're the only one in range. Put down a purify? Pop your heal? Sounds like the templar defense eh? Doing so will remove your rapids, but popping hardened ward or cloak is kosher apparently because #wrobellogic.

The_Tip · March 2016

In my opinion, I wish they'd get more things done, because honestly, the amount of money this game brought in, even with the release pushbacks for console, should be more than enough to justify the demand from the consumers. Im content with what we have, but of course I'd like more, now whether that's possible, or out of the realm of possibility I do not know, Im not a game developer. I just trust they're doing the best they can, and the Division comes out in 2 days

.

The rage is justified though, I get it, It's not like we all spent 40-60 bucks, and bought a season pass if we liked it. Alot of us paid upwards of 100 bucks for pre-orders/pc to console character transfers, and 15 bucks a month for going on a year and a half now. Not to mention the "Crown Store will never devalue craftable items, strictly vanity and cosmetic items will be available"

I love you ESO, but you do make some sketchy moves sometimes, dont we all though.

Mojmir · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

HebrewHatchet wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

I have to agree here. Any modern development team listens to and reacts to data, and that data is undoubtedly collected right there in the code. They can see if nightblades die less often than sorcerers, if dragonknights put out less damage on average than the other classes, or how often Templars cast breath of life compared to their other class skills. It's naive to think that they don't have a rich interface that gives them deep insight with mathematical precision with regards to how the game runs, how the game is balanced, and how players play.

The discussion here is just another data point that, frankly, has much less weight than the numbers that their platform aggregates. In fact, I would argue that this forum is more of a public relations platform than anything else and that whenever the forum thinks that they affected something, it is actually just a case of misattributed causality, and that the change was going to happen regardless of the discussions on the forums.

The difference is that numbers need to be interpreted (and the extent that ZOS even uses such tools remains a complete mystery given their shroud of secrecy and refusal to improve communication), and can be interpreted incorrectly. Breath of Life is cast more than any other templar skill according to the 'interface'? Maybe that means it's OP and needs to be nerfed, maybe that means it isn't a strong enough heal and has to be spammed for healing to be effective, maybe that means there are a lack of better healing alternatives, maybe that means the other templar skills are just not working/balanced correctly and more templars decide to be healers. All of those interpretations lead to completely different outcomes and have completely different root problems - the forums and player feedback provide a guide to interpreting the raw numbers, and at least on some fronts, the combat team has chosen to go it solo even though the feedback has remained static for years and counter to what the combat team seems to think the solution needs to be. No one is asking for the combat team to listen to every single post or every single feedback, but when the feedback is consistent over the course of years and the players just keep getting angrier and angrier - maybe the combat team needs to look unto themselves and their vision as being the problem.

if you want better input, listen to the people doing the work(players) instead of the bean counters.

Turelus · March 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

HebrewHatchet wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

I have to agree here. Any modern development team listens to and reacts to data, and that data is undoubtedly collected right there in the code. They can see if nightblades die less often than sorcerers, if dragonknights put out less damage on average than the other classes, or how often Templars cast breath of life compared to their other class skills. It's naive to think that they don't have a rich interface that gives them deep insight with mathematical precision with regards to how the game runs, how the game is balanced, and how players play.

The discussion here is just another data point that, frankly, has much less weight than the numbers that their platform aggregates. In fact, I would argue that this forum is more of a public relations platform than anything else and that whenever the forum thinks that they affected something, it is actually just a case of misattributed causality, and that the change was going to happen regardless of the discussions on the forums.

The difference is that numbers need to be interpreted (and the extent that ZOS even uses such tools remains a complete mystery given their shroud of secrecy and refusal to improve communication), and can be interpreted incorrectly. Breath of Life is cast more than any other templar skill according to the 'interface'? Maybe that means it's OP and needs to be nerfed, maybe that means it isn't a strong enough heal and has to be spammed for healing to be effective, maybe that means there are a lack of better healing alternatives, maybe that means the other templar skills are just not working/balanced correctly and more templars decide to be healers. All of those interpretations lead to completely different outcomes and have completely different root problems - the forums and player feedback provide a guide to interpreting the raw numbers, and at least on some fronts, the combat team has chosen to go it solo even though the feedback has remained static for years and counter to what the combat team seems to think the solution needs to be. No one is asking for the combat team to listen to every single post or every single feedback, but when the feedback is consistent over the course of years and the players just keep getting angrier and angrier - maybe the combat team needs to look unto themselves and their vision as being the problem.

if you want better input, listen to the people doing the work(players) instead of the bean counters.

But those same players are the ones who who demand every thing which they don't understand is OP, that their class is the weakest no matter what, that every other class is OP no matter what.

Sure the players have a good sense of what's happening in the game but we also have a bias towards our class being the best. When I see a change to a DK I shug and don't care, when I see a change to a NB I study it fully and start to think how this effects me.

They've said in an ESO plus before that when they have meetings about things they also have the data regarding the subject as well to see what the game is saying vs what the forums is saying. This is what all games I have played do, the difference here though is that data is is not released to us with the change.

Again I go back to the Alliance War skill unlock changes. We all raged like crazy this was too low and everyone would have them in a day etc. Then ZOS showed us the actual numbers and it was a huge WTF moment to see it was taking most casual gamers 600 something days to unlock it all.

After seeing those numbers we could see why they came to their conclusion and where it was too fast for a good player or not could see it was better for the game and the wider player base.

Mojmir · March 2016

Turelus wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

HebrewHatchet wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

I have to agree here. Any modern development team listens to and reacts to data, and that data is undoubtedly collected right there in the code. They can see if nightblades die less often than sorcerers, if dragonknights put out less damage on average than the other classes, or how often Templars cast breath of life compared to their other class skills. It's naive to think that they don't have a rich interface that gives them deep insight with mathematical precision with regards to how the game runs, how the game is balanced, and how players play.

The discussion here is just another data point that, frankly, has much less weight than the numbers that their platform aggregates. In fact, I would argue that this forum is more of a public relations platform than anything else and that whenever the forum thinks that they affected something, it is actually just a case of misattributed causality, and that the change was going to happen regardless of the discussions on the forums.

The difference is that numbers need to be interpreted (and the extent that ZOS even uses such tools remains a complete mystery given their shroud of secrecy and refusal to improve communication), and can be interpreted incorrectly. Breath of Life is cast more than any other templar skill according to the 'interface'? Maybe that means it's OP and needs to be nerfed, maybe that means it isn't a strong enough heal and has to be spammed for healing to be effective, maybe that means there are a lack of better healing alternatives, maybe that means the other templar skills are just not working/balanced correctly and more templars decide to be healers. All of those interpretations lead to completely different outcomes and have completely different root problems - the forums and player feedback provide a guide to interpreting the raw numbers, and at least on some fronts, the combat team has chosen to go it solo even though the feedback has remained static for years and counter to what the combat team seems to think the solution needs to be. No one is asking for the combat team to listen to every single post or every single feedback, but when the feedback is consistent over the course of years and the players just keep getting angrier and angrier - maybe the combat team needs to look unto themselves and their vision as being the problem.

if you want better input, listen to the people doing the work(players) instead of the bean counters.

But those same players are the ones who who demand every thing which they don't understand is OP, that their class is the weakest no matter what, that every other class is OP no matter what.

Sure the players have a good sense of what's happening in the game but we also have a bias towards our class being the best. When I see a change to a DK I shug and don't care, when I see a change to a NB I study it fully and start to think how this effects me.

They've said in an ESO plus before that when they have meetings about things they also have the data regarding the subject as well to see what the game is saying vs what the forums is saying. This is what all games I have played do, the difference here though is that data is is not released to us with the change.

Again I go back to the Alliance War skill unlock changes. We all raged like crazy this was too low and everyone would have them in a day etc. Then ZOS showed us the actual numbers and it was a huge WTF moment to see it was taking most casual gamers 600 something days to unlock it all.

After seeing those numbers we could see why they came to their conclusion and where it was too fast for a good player or not could see it was better for the game and the wider player base.

some of these posts made by players are more well thought out and descriptive than anything ive heard or seen from development side. In that case I would say its passion not biased. totally agree there are some "opinionated" players, but the golden rule is "give them what they need not what they want". part of the business is to be able to gauge and judge which is which. I don't think we cant help them with that aspect.

ub17_ESO · March 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't want to be a member of the team who is responsible for balance. It's just too difficult when I try to realistically think about the task of balancing everything as a whole.

However, because it's necessary to strive for balance, perhaps the combat team could implement a system that removes the 4 classes that we currently have (Templar, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer) and instead allows us to choose 3 of the 12 skill lines for building our character.

Then, the issue is not about balancing classes, but instead, about balancing skill lines. This would drastically reduce the amount of work for the combat team and also give players more options. Then we wouldn't have whole groups of people complaining that their entire class feels useless to them (as we currently have with Templars).

I don't think that solves an issue of balance because we would still have the same trees. Instead of classes, it would be skill lines. Same problem, different way the skills are presented to us.

They've convulated their own issue of balance with Vet ranks and Champion Points.

I like the point @eliisra conveys.

ZoS or Matt presenting to us what path they're going down in regards to the game direction would probably clarify things for us.

What I like about the idea of removing classes (which has been stated before, by others) and only focusing on skill lines is that then an entire class won't be deemed "worthless" by players, like we currently have with Templars. I'm not saying that removing classes would fix balance, but it makes it easier to balance combat.

Can you imagine the difficulty and stress of having to balance 12 skill lines that are permanently locked into 4 specific classes? Why not remove the restrictions and only have to worry about the skill lines themselves?

i like my templar...exceptionally survivable, dps is more than good enough to complete all the content

ToRelax · March 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

HebrewHatchet wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Let's make sure we are on the same page here

You are the third dot from the 7,000,000,000 from the left. I think I see me over there on the right.

None of us have any idea of the big picture. We all see these little frames and compartments and think we can extrapolate that out to scale of the playerbase.

Know what, the most you can actively be a part of is 2,499 players. This is your community. 5 guilds, 500 people, minus yourself.

You could then take a strawpoll of those people and try to take some info from that, but its such a small sample size your data will be completely broken.

Remember that not everyone is the same as yourself, even though it feels that way.

They have access to the data. We don't. 100% of these posts and ideas are just that, ideas, conjecture, speculation.

Not to say I don't agree with the concept and the ideals behind it, but don't think that we can affect change by being on the forums.

Last maths were done someone figured out it was less than 1% of all players that visit these forums, so uh how can a vocal minority of super low % mean anything?

I have to agree here. Any modern development team listens to and reacts to data, and that data is undoubtedly collected right there in the code. They can see if nightblades die less often than sorcerers, if dragonknights put out less damage on average than the other classes, or how often Templars cast breath of life compared to their other class skills. It's naive to think that they don't have a rich interface that gives them deep insight with mathematical precision with regards to how the game runs, how the game is balanced, and how players play.

The discussion here is just another data point that, frankly, has much less weight than the numbers that their platform aggregates. In fact, I would argue that this forum is more of a public relations platform than anything else and that whenever the forum thinks that they affected something, it is actually just a case of misattributed causality, and that the change was going to happen regardless of the discussions on the forums.

The difference is that numbers need to be interpreted (and the extent that ZOS even uses such tools remains a complete mystery given their shroud of secrecy and refusal to improve communication), and can be interpreted incorrectly. Breath of Life is cast more than any other templar skill according to the 'interface'? Maybe that means it's OP and needs to be nerfed, maybe that means it isn't a strong enough heal and has to be spammed for healing to be effective, maybe that means there are a lack of better healing alternatives, maybe that means the other templar skills are just not working/balanced correctly and more templars decide to be healers. All of those interpretations lead to completely different outcomes and have completely different root problems - the forums and player feedback provide a guide to interpreting the raw numbers, and at least on some fronts, the combat team has chosen to go it solo even though the feedback has remained static for years and counter to what the combat team seems to think the solution needs to be. No one is asking for the combat team to listen to every single post or every single feedback, but when the feedback is consistent over the course of years and the players just keep getting angrier and angrier - maybe the combat team needs to look unto themselves and their vision as being the problem.

if you want better input, listen to the people doing the work(players) instead of the bean counters.

But those same players are the ones who who demand every thing which they don't understand is OP, that their class is the weakest no matter what, that every other class is OP no matter what.

Sure the players have a good sense of what's happening in the game but we also have a bias towards our class being the best. When I see a change to a DK I shug and don't care, when I see a change to a NB I study it fully and start to think how this effects me.

They've said in an ESO plus before that when they have meetings about things they also have the data regarding the subject as well to see what the game is saying vs what the forums is saying. This is what all games I have played do, the difference here though is that data is is not released to us with the change.

Again I go back to the Alliance War skill unlock changes. We all raged like crazy this was too low and everyone would have them in a day etc. Then ZOS showed us the actual numbers and it was a huge WTF moment to see it was taking most casual gamers 600 something days to unlock it all.

After seeing those numbers we could see why they came to their conclusion and where it was too fast for a good player or not could see it was better for the game and the wider player base.

some of these posts made by players are more well thought out and descriptive than anything ive heard or seen from development side. In that case I would say its passion not biased. totally agree there are some "opinionated" players, but the golden rule is "give them what they need not what they want". part of the business is to be able to gauge and judge which is which. I don't think we cant help them with that aspect.

Exactly this. ZOS should be able to follow the arguments of logical, well structured posts, and even when they think it might be good feedback but don't understand/agree with something they could simply ask the autor to clarify. It can be and is for many very frustrating to do their best in helping ZOS solve the issues they are passionate about, yet ZOS appearantly (from all they see) is unable to or simply doesn't care.

ub17_ESO · March 2016

I think if you we have a discussion about the best way to manage game balance most people could agree that frequent minor changes is the best way to approach the problem. It seems we have the complete opposite of that, we get drastic changes once a quarter.

I think this is likely because there is not a dedicated team just for balance. I dont know the size of Mr. Wrobel"s team or is it Wobel, regardless, maybe his team has been given other priorities. I'm sure they are working hard there, I dont doubt that. It just seems by all accounts that balance is not a priority, if it was then resources would be thrown at it and we could get a better product.

Seriously, the combat team, lead gameplay designer, and Mr. Frior agreed that balancing (buffing) magic spec ONLY this update would go over well with the player base. This type of action speaks to the working environment in the studio. I have a hard time believing that this was oversight on Wrobel's part. If it was then clearly he is overwhelmed and needs more resources to deliver the type of product everyone would appreciate.

I hope it gets better, and I hope ESO can see a better balance effort. I wont hold my breath...

Ffastyl · March 2016

@ub17_ESO Wrobel is the head of the Combat and Itemization team. He is in charge of creating all items, item sets, abilities, classes and balancing all said articles. We are unaware of how large a team is at his disposal but most of us agree that is too much work for one lead.

acw37162 · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manage to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game?

I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.

They have explained this in the past.
They are limited in what they can adjust in a incremental patch.

They explained on a ESO live or on the forums somewhere and I don't want yo get it wrong. Basically, if it is a value tweak they can touch it in a incremental. If it invokes almost anything outside of changing a value the process becomes a lot more involved and tested and is put into larger patches which are tested more extensively.

To be honest it this is more or less a QA check to make sure they don't break things they can't fix and they still mange to sometimes. If you remember snares and sneaking in IC even with testing and QA.

I would much prefer they don't get into adjunct changes with incremental patches.

Animal_Mother · March 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I think one of the best things that ZOS and the combat team could do to help this situation is to provide more immediate relief in terms of balance changes, rather than waiting every quarter for the next DLC to come out to implement those. Why can't the incremental patches include more concrete changes? Games like League of Legends (the most popular, most competitive game on the planet) manage to routinely address balance issues through regular patches. ZOS says they want to take it slow so they don't break the game or muck up other areas, and I do understand that... but surely there is a middle ground here, some sort of compromise that we can reach that will make people happy while also maintaining the integrity of the game?

I think if this singular issue is addressed, no matter what kind of changes we see in particular, you will show the community and the players who pay for this game and all of its content that you're listening and are willing to deliver excellent continued support to your game. This to me is probably the most important thing that the developers should consider right now, even more than the content. You can add new DLC all you want and I'm sure people will continue to buy it, but those numbers will dwindle and get smaller and smaller over time as people become disillusioned with the product they bought. Please don't fall into this trap ZOS! We all love ESO here and we want to continue playing this game and supporting you all for years to come.

They have explained this in the past.
They are limited in what they can adjust in a incremental patch.

They explained on a ESO live or on the forums somewhere and I don't want yo get it wrong. Basically, if it is a value tweak they can touch it in a incremental. If it invokes almost anything outside of changing a value the process becomes a lot more involved and tested and is put into larger patches which are tested more extensively.

To be honest it this is more or less a QA check to make sure they don't break things they can't fix and they still mange to sometimes. If you remember snares and sneaking in IC even with testing and QA.

I would much prefer they don't get into adjunct changes with incremental patches.

Thats the development style they seem to be following, now. When ESO was a subscription, they seemed to fix things with more regularity and much more wholesale changes to classes. One of the first patches I remember was the introduction of a GDC to all templar abilities to combat botting. This was certainly more than just tweaking a value to the point where ZOS can no longer remove it from the game. Thus ZOS' company lines, "templars are slower by design" and "working as intended" have become jokes.

Since the game has gone B2P. The fixes have gotten fewer and farther apart. I probably not alone in thinking, the dev staff is only allowed to tweak abilities, as their main focus is to generate content for DLC sales.

edit: And the PTS should be available all the time to test changes/tweaks, before they get to live. ZOS should listen to feedback presented using the PTS. To encourage more casual players to use the PTS they should offer rewards, special pets or titles to get them to leave feedback on the system.

Of course, with the way things are running now, we have no way of knowing if someone responds to our feedback or bug reports - simply shooting an email saying "ticket xxxxxx-xxxxxxx has been recieved and is being reviewed" would go a long way in reestablishing trust in the ZOS staff.

NeillMcAttack · March 2016

I just want to say that i agree with and support the vast majority of the devs decisions. I also understand that these things take a lot of time especially with the scheduled expansions that are planned. Most players i feel that come here to complain and "discuss" what's unfair are looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective.

Let's face it, most complaints come from PvP gameplay (which for the record is what made me fall in love with this game). And i don't agree with what players are complaining about the vast majority of the time, and while many here want what is said on the forums to be taken more seriously, i for one don't want the game most "complainers" are shouting for.

Examples of what i mean: People asking for "balance" between all the individual classes; "why does this class not have this kind of passive?". "How come I can't apply this buff?". Like, I don't want a game balanced around 1v1's. In the future we could end up with FOTM builds that are used on every class and race. Same buffs, same utillity, same DPS, Practically the exact same skill bars.... on different classes!!!??
And what is even funnier is people will also claim "But its supposed to be play how you want??". Well then learn how to play that way instead of asking for it to be handed to you. These are complaints I don't want taken too seriously.

Another example, while i think of it, is people laughing at the 'Templar house' comment, because i've seen what he is talking about. One of the guys i run dungeons with always fills both the tank and healer roll on all vet dungeons, all speed runs, everything. "Templar OP pls nerf zos"!! And before anyone brings it up he also runs this build in the sewers. He has sustained us and tanked through waves of blues and yellows.... literally!

All I'm saying is that (inside this rant, sry) I hope ZOS, with their much broader perspective continue to build and balance for group play. Not solo play. Because if most of the issues brought up here were taken too seriously we could end up where every class has access to every skill line, every race has every passive, and gameplay becomes boring because the learning will have stopped.

Now with that, I'm off to craft some gear for my NB to try and turn him into a tank for vet dungeons. If he isn't as effective as i hope maybe ill come back to complain that i don't have access to Dragon Blood

Zheg · March 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I just want to say that i agree with and support the vast majority of the devs decisions. I also understand that these things take a lot of time especially with the scheduled expansions that are planned. Most players i feel that come here to complain and "discuss" what's unfair are looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective.

Let's face it, most complaints come from PvP gameplay (which for the record is what made me fall in love with this game). And i don't agree with what players are complaining about the vast majority of the time, and while many here want what is said on the forums to be taken more seriously, i for one don't want the game most "complainers" are shouting for.

Examples of what i mean: People asking for "balance" between all the individual classes; "why does this class not have this kind of passive?". "How come I can't apply this buff?". Like, I don't want a game balanced around 1v1's. In the future we could end up with FOTM builds that are used on every class and race. Same buffs, same utillity, same DPS, Practically the exact same skill bars.... on different classes!!!??
And what is even funnier is people will also claim "But its supposed to be play how you want??". Well then learn how to play that way instead of asking for it to be handed to you. These are complaints I don't want taken too seriously.

Another example, while i think of it, is people laughing at the 'Templar house' comment, because i've seen what he is talking about. One of the guys i run dungeons with always fills both the tank and healer roll on all vet dungeons, all speed runs, everything. "Templar OP pls nerf zos"!! And before anyone brings it up he also runs this build in the sewers. He has sustained us and tanked through waves of blues and yellows.... literally!

All I'm saying is that (inside this rant, sry) I hope ZOS, with their much broader perspective continue to build and balance for group play. Not solo play. Because if most of the issues brought up here were taken too seriously we could end up where every class has access to every skill line, every race has every passive, and gameplay becomes boring because the learning will have stopped.

Now with that, I'm off to craft some gear for my NB to try and turn him into a tank for vet dungeons. If he isn't as effective as i hope maybe ill come back to complain that i don't have access to Dragon Blood

Most of the pvp balance gripes ARE about group play though. It doesn't quite matter if I'm all that mobile in a 1v1, with the exception of my opponent being able to escape and deny me a kill. It certainly does matter if I go to a keep fight and there are 4 casts of bombard for every 1 cast of my purify and I'm rooted in place the entire time without strong shields or mitigation like magma shell. I can buy some of what you're saying, but you instantly lose me when you get to the dreaded templar house. Faceroll easy pve and baddies in the sewers do not mean the 'templar house' is sufficient or strong. The ongoing complaints regarding that are two-fold.

First, other classes are better equipped skill-line wise for that style of play. Second, that style of play makes you stronger when you're stationary and less strong when mobile; when the game promotes mobility across the board as the preferred playstyle - stationary is left in the dust. The stationary 'house' falls apart in VMA or in pvp against competent opponents.

NeillMcAttack · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I just want to say that i agree with and support the vast majority of the devs decisions. I also understand that these things take a lot of time especially with the scheduled expansions that are planned. Most players i feel that come here to complain and "discuss" what's unfair are looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective.

Let's face it, most complaints come from PvP gameplay (which for the record is what made me fall in love with this game). And i don't agree with what players are complaining about the vast majority of the time, and while many here want what is said on the forums to be taken more seriously, i for one don't want the game most "complainers" are shouting for.

Examples of what i mean: People asking for "balance" between all the individual classes; "why does this class not have this kind of passive?". "How come I can't apply this buff?". Like, I don't want a game balanced around 1v1's. In the future we could end up with FOTM builds that are used on every class and race. Same buffs, same utillity, same DPS, Practically the exact same skill bars.... on different classes!!!??
And what is even funnier is people will also claim "But its supposed to be play how you want??". Well then learn how to play that way instead of asking for it to be handed to you. These are complaints I don't want taken too seriously.

Another example, while i think of it, is people laughing at the 'Templar house' comment, because i've seen what he is talking about. One of the guys i run dungeons with always fills both the tank and healer roll on all vet dungeons, all speed runs, everything. "Templar OP pls nerf zos"!! And before anyone brings it up he also runs this build in the sewers. He has sustained us and tanked through waves of blues and yellows.... literally!

All I'm saying is that (inside this rant, sry) I hope ZOS, with their much broader perspective continue to build and balance for group play. Not solo play. Because if most of the issues brought up here were taken too seriously we could end up where every class has access to every skill line, every race has every passive, and gameplay becomes boring because the learning will have stopped.

Now with that, I'm off to craft some gear for my NB to try and turn him into a tank for vet dungeons. If he isn't as effective as i hope maybe ill come back to complain that i don't have access to Dragon Blood

Most of the pvp balance gripes ARE about group play though. It doesn't quite matter if I'm all that mobile in a 1v1, with the exception of my opponent being able to escape and deny me a kill. It certainly does matter if I go to a keep fight and there are 4 casts of bombard for every 1 cast of my purify and I'm rooted in place the entire time without strong shields or mitigation like magma shell. I can buy some of what you're saying, but you instantly lose me when you get to the dreaded templar house. Faceroll easy pve and baddies in the sewers do not mean the 'templar house' is sufficient or strong. The ongoing complaints regarding that are two-fold.

First, other classes are better equipped skill-line wise for that style of play. Second, that style of play makes you stronger when you're stationary and less strong when mobile; when the game promotes mobility across the board as the preferred playstyle - stationary is left in the dust. The stationary 'house' falls apart in VMA or in pvp against competent opponents.

I'm not saying everything is perfect. Just that i would prefer much more informed input than what is read here. But i will stand by what i say about the templar class. A templar's sustain is definately the most reliable, in group play, positioning is most important and with higher mobility i can honestly see them becoming unrivaled.

VMA is not group content so it should stand to reason that other classes may have an easier time in succeeding therein.

With regards PvP, I don't think you can tell me a better class to build on to provide healing, protection, and stamina to your friendlies. Honestly, to say the strongest and most reliable healing class is the weakest in PvP tells me that you are not looking at it from a group PvP perspective.

If you are being hit with 3 bombards and can't deal with it you are out of position but arguing possibilities is guaranteed to get us nowhere.

Zheg · March 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I just want to say that i agree with and support the vast majority of the devs decisions. I also understand that these things take a lot of time especially with the scheduled expansions that are planned. Most players i feel that come here to complain and "discuss" what's unfair are looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective.

Let's face it, most complaints come from PvP gameplay (which for the record is what made me fall in love with this game). And i don't agree with what players are complaining about the vast majority of the time, and while many here want what is said on the forums to be taken more seriously, i for one don't want the game most "complainers" are shouting for.

Examples of what i mean: People asking for "balance" between all the individual classes; "why does this class not have this kind of passive?". "How come I can't apply this buff?". Like, I don't want a game balanced around 1v1's. In the future we could end up with FOTM builds that are used on every class and race. Same buffs, same utillity, same DPS, Practically the exact same skill bars.... on different classes!!!??
And what is even funnier is people will also claim "But its supposed to be play how you want??". Well then learn how to play that way instead of asking for it to be handed to you. These are complaints I don't want taken too seriously.

Another example, while i think of it, is people laughing at the 'Templar house' comment, because i've seen what he is talking about. One of the guys i run dungeons with always fills both the tank and healer roll on all vet dungeons, all speed runs, everything. "Templar OP pls nerf zos"!! And before anyone brings it up he also runs this build in the sewers. He has sustained us and tanked through waves of blues and yellows.... literally!

All I'm saying is that (inside this rant, sry) I hope ZOS, with their much broader perspective continue to build and balance for group play. Not solo play. Because if most of the issues brought up here were taken too seriously we could end up where every class has access to every skill line, every race has every passive, and gameplay becomes boring because the learning will have stopped.

Now with that, I'm off to craft some gear for my NB to try and turn him into a tank for vet dungeons. If he isn't as effective as i hope maybe ill come back to complain that i don't have access to Dragon Blood

Most of the pvp balance gripes ARE about group play though. It doesn't quite matter if I'm all that mobile in a 1v1, with the exception of my opponent being able to escape and deny me a kill. It certainly does matter if I go to a keep fight and there are 4 casts of bombard for every 1 cast of my purify and I'm rooted in place the entire time without strong shields or mitigation like magma shell. I can buy some of what you're saying, but you instantly lose me when you get to the dreaded templar house. Faceroll easy pve and baddies in the sewers do not mean the 'templar house' is sufficient or strong. The ongoing complaints regarding that are two-fold.

First, other classes are better equipped skill-line wise for that style of play. Second, that style of play makes you stronger when you're stationary and less strong when mobile; when the game promotes mobility across the board as the preferred playstyle - stationary is left in the dust. The stationary 'house' falls apart in VMA or in pvp against competent opponents.

I'm not saying everything is perfect. Just that i would prefer much more informed input than what is read here. But i will stand by what i say about the templar class. A templar's sustain is definately the most reliable, in group play, positioning is most important and with higher mobility i can honestly see them becoming unrivaled.

VMA is not group content so it should stand to reason that other classes may have an easier time in succeeding therein.

With regards PvP, I don't think you can tell me a better class to build on to provide healing, protection, and stamina to your friendlies. Honestly, to say the strongest and most reliable healing class is the weakest in PvP tells me that you are not looking at it from a group PvP perspective.

If you are being hit with 3 bombards and can't deal with it you are out of position but arguing possibilities is guaranteed to get us nowhere.

This wasn't the thread meant for detailed feedback and ideas. There have been dozens and dozens of those, and they've been largely ignored by the devs. I have literally no idea how to respond to someone that says templars have the most reliable sustain when nightblades have more sustain simply from passives, not to mention siphoning attacks. I've clocked more hours on my templar than any other class and spend the majority of my pvp time in large or small groups, so yes, I certainly do look at things from a group perspective. The damage creep has been consistent and pronounced patch to patch, and will only get worse next patch. Prox det doing double damage, no barriers, heal debuffs like fasalla's guile, purge cost going up and hitting fewer, siege buffs, rapids nerf - these are all things that promote high burst and provide disincentives to sustain, which means that healing ends up being the least effective means of sustain, and shields ends up being the best. We can debate this if you'd like, but the argument is pretty stacked against you.

You clearly have rose colored glasses on when it comes to templars, so for the sake of not obliterating the last few remaining hopeful templars still standing, I'll leave things be and simply refer you to the 80 page templar thread on PTS that will raise every point and counter point I'd end up making to your post anyway.

As an aside, maybe it's an EU vs NA thing, but bombard has already become the new steel tornado. Being spam rooted has nothing to do with positioning and everything to do with it just being spammed the entire fight by opponents. We'll also see a bunch more DKs next patch and therefore have talons on top of all of the bombard spam. If you haven't experienced this yet on EU, hope you never have to.

Pendrillion · March 2016

For me the problem is pretty obvious. Nerf burst damage and crits across the board. Make people work for kills. Double the health and armor if it helps. As long as fights last less than a minute I am not convinced some meaningful gameplay can be achieved.

NeillMcAttack · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I just want to say that i agree with and support the vast majority of the devs decisions. I also understand that these things take a lot of time especially with the scheduled expansions that are planned. Most players i feel that come here to complain and "discuss" what's unfair are looking at the situation from a very narrow perspective.

Let's face it, most complaints come from PvP gameplay (which for the record is what made me fall in love with this game). And i don't agree with what players are complaining about the vast majority of the time, and while many here want what is said on the forums to be taken more seriously, i for one don't want the game most "complainers" are shouting for.

Examples of what i mean: People asking for "balance" between all the individual classes; "why does this class not have this kind of passive?". "How come I can't apply this buff?". Like, I don't want a game balanced around 1v1's. In the future we could end up with FOTM builds that are used on every class and race. Same buffs, same utillity, same DPS, Practically the exact same skill bars.... on different classes!!!??
And what is even funnier is people will also claim "But its supposed to be play how you want??". Well then learn how to play that way instead of asking for it to be handed to you. These are complaints I don't want taken too seriously.

Another example, while i think of it, is people laughing at the 'Templar house' comment, because i've seen what he is talking about. One of the guys i run dungeons with always fills both the tank and healer roll on all vet dungeons, all speed runs, everything. "Templar OP pls nerf zos"!! And before anyone brings it up he also runs this build in the sewers. He has sustained us and tanked through waves of blues and yellows.... literally!

All I'm saying is that (inside this rant, sry) I hope ZOS, with their much broader perspective continue to build and balance for group play. Not solo play. Because if most of the issues brought up here were taken too seriously we could end up where every class has access to every skill line, every race has every passive, and gameplay becomes boring because the learning will have stopped.

Now with that, I'm off to craft some gear for my NB to try and turn him into a tank for vet dungeons. If he isn't as effective as i hope maybe ill come back to complain that i don't have access to Dragon Blood

Most of the pvp balance gripes ARE about group play though. It doesn't quite matter if I'm all that mobile in a 1v1, with the exception of my opponent being able to escape and deny me a kill. It certainly does matter if I go to a keep fight and there are 4 casts of bombard for every 1 cast of my purify and I'm rooted in place the entire time without strong shields or mitigation like magma shell. I can buy some of what you're saying, but you instantly lose me when you get to the dreaded templar house. Faceroll easy pve and baddies in the sewers do not mean the 'templar house' is sufficient or strong. The ongoing complaints regarding that are two-fold.

First, other classes are better equipped skill-line wise for that style of play. Second, that style of play makes you stronger when you're stationary and less strong when mobile; when the game promotes mobility across the board as the preferred playstyle - stationary is left in the dust. The stationary 'house' falls apart in VMA or in pvp against competent opponents.

I'm not saying everything is perfect. Just that i would prefer much more informed input than what is read here. But i will stand by what i say about the templar class. A templar's sustain is definately the most reliable, in group play, positioning is most important and with higher mobility i can honestly see them becoming unrivaled.

VMA is not group content so it should stand to reason that other classes may have an easier time in succeeding therein.

With regards PvP, I don't think you can tell me a better class to build on to provide healing, protection, and stamina to your friendlies. Honestly, to say the strongest and most reliable healing class is the weakest in PvP tells me that you are not looking at it from a group PvP perspective.

If you are being hit with 3 bombards and can't deal with it you are out of position but arguing possibilities is guaranteed to get us nowhere.

This wasn't the thread meant for detailed feedback and ideas. There have been dozens and dozens of those, and they've been largely ignored by the devs. I have literally no idea how to respond to someone that says templars have the most reliable sustain when nightblades have more sustain simply from passives, not to mention siphoning attacks. I've clocked more hours on my templar than any other class and spend the majority of my pvp time in large or small groups, so yes, I certainly do look at things from a group perspective. The damage creep has been consistent and pronounced patch to patch, and will only get worse next patch. Prox det doing double damage, no barriers, heal debuffs like fasalla's guile, purge cost going up and hitting fewer, siege buffs, rapids nerf - these are all things that promote high burst and provide disincentives to sustain, which means that healing ends up being the least effective means of sustain, and shields ends up being the best. We can debate this if you'd like, but the argument is pretty stacked against you.

You clearly have rose colored glasses on when it comes to templars, so for the sake of not obliterating the last few remaining hopeful templars still standing, I'll leave things be and simply refer you to the 80 page templar thread on PTS that will raise every point and counter point I'd end up making to your post anyway.

As an aside, maybe it's an EU vs NA thing, but bombard has already become the new steel tornado. Being spam rooted has nothing to do with positioning and everything to do with it just being spammed the entire fight by opponents. We'll also see a bunch more DKs next patch and therefore have talons on top of all of the bombard spam. If you haven't experienced this yet on EU, hope you never have to.

I genuinely appreciate your perspective and understand that we are likely coming from very different places meta and experience wise. And speaking from my experiences Templars are strong. I am not saying that the are built 'better' than nightblades. But I do feel that they offer tons that is unique to the class, and to move in a direction of 'standardising' class skills and passives would remove a lot of what is fun and unique about the gameplay.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

If you claim Templars are at the bottom or have ever been at the bottom: your either parroting people who have either never spend a significant amount of time playing one, you've pigeonholed yourself into a playstyle which has weaknesses that are commonly exploited or you just started yourself. I apologize for this reality check but you simply can not have any concept in the range of options the Templar class gives when you rely on spamming 1 ability over and over while occasionally struggling to move your finger off to hit another button.

The other issue is players who refuse to criticize their own character and figure out ways to make adjustments to fix the issues they are having. Every complaint has an answer but just as an example because Wrobel's comment has become a meme/joke. Yeah Templars, it's hard to protect the house and not get run over when you can't properly avoid WB or your running 7 light with divine traits and CP into Quick Recovery. Think...

As a Templar since pre-release, I do not struggle like so many claim to but I have also mastered the class and MORE IMPORTANTLY I don't want anymore dumbing down of this game. Hopefully this so-called nerf will force people to stop relying on this cruise control through content which is what BoL has become. Only then will we may be able to address the real issues with the class. Instead of OMG posts saying "you mean I can only heal 2 people with an ability instead of 3", "you mean I can't just go zombie mode through content pressing just 1 button and winning anymore".

This is a silly request. My apologies for not agreeing with the vast majority...

Zheg · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

If you claim Templars are at the bottom or have ever been at the bottom: your either parroting people who have either never spend a significant amount of time playing one, you've pigeonholed yourself into a playstyle which has weaknesses that are commonly exploited or you just started yourself. I apologize for this reality check but you simply can not have any concept in the range of options the Templar class gives when you rely on spamming 1 ability over and over while occasionally struggling to move your finger off to hit another button.

The other issue is players who refuse to criticize their own character and figure out ways to make adjustments to fix the issues they are having. Every complaint has an answer but just as an example because Wrobel's comment has become a meme/joke. Yeah Templars, it's hard to protect the house and not get run over when you can't properly avoid WB or your running 7 light with divine traits and CP into Quick Recovery. Think...

As a Templar since pre-release, I do not struggle like so many claim to but I have also mastered the class and MORE IMPORTANTLY I don't want anymore dumbing down of this game. Hopefully this so-called nerf will force people to stop relying on this cruise control through content which is what BoL has become. Only then will we may be able to address the real issues with the class. Instead of OMG posts saying "you mean I can only heal 2 people with an ability instead of 3", "you mean I can't just go zombie mode through content pressing just 1 button and winning anymore".

This is a silly request. My apologies for not agreeing with the vast majority...

It's fine that you don't agree with the vast majority (including some of the best pvp and pve templars), that puts you in the same camp as Wrobel, and clearly that's a good place to be /sarcasm. Are you insinuating that these top templars never spent a significant time playing one, or that they "refuse to criticize their own character and figure out ways to make adjustments to fix the issues they are having"? If you can't weed out the "I just died" threads from the well though-out and accurate concerns so many have provided over the past 2 years, then you suffer from the same affliction as Wrobel.

You say you don't want a dumbing down of the game, and yet, I see no arguments against the dps meta that Wrobel keeps forcing down our throats where burst beats all, including someone desperately trying to heal up an hp pool that hasn't budged in over a year while dps numbers keep going up.

If you want to debate templar issues, I'll gladly show you what's what on a more appropriate thread. This thread is about the fact that whether or not you agree with all of the anger from the playerbase, it exists, it's largely directed at the combat team, and usually where there's that much smoke there's fire. The goal was to shine a light on the dozens of threads and hundreds of comments plastered across the forums demonstrating how ticked off so many players are, and to prod ZOS to make a decision on whether they think it's healthy, or whether they think they should do something to address the issues, or at the very least placate the anger by improving communication.

Animal_Mother · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

As a Templar since pre-release, I do not struggle like so many claim to but I have also mastered the class and MORE IMPORTANTLY I don't want anymore dumbing down of this game. Hopefully this so-called nerf will force people to stop relying on this cruise control through content which is what BoL has become. Only then will we may be able to address the real issues with the class. Instead of OMG posts saying "you mean I can only heal 2 people with an ability instead of 3", "you mean I can't just go zombie mode through content pressing just 1 button and winning anymore".

This is a silly request. My apologies for not agreeing with the vast majority...

Look at it from another point of view. Templars have had major issues, some of them nearly two years old, why mess with BoL at this juncture?

I would rather have my passives readjusted to be more in line with the game system that appeared with 1.6. I would like more responsive class abilities. Some mobility and survivability. A charge that is reliable. Shoot, with the changes appearing soon, I'd like a reduction in the cost to cast BoL - which even before factoring the incoming healing reduction, is still the most expensive heal in the game.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

@Zheg No I don't agree with the majority of posts about Templar issues. Sadly because most of them are filled with "wheres our buffs", or "why you nerfing us". The well thought out threads I evaluate each respectively if they actually address issues and don't sound like the former examples.

DPS gone up? No, that was 1.6 when people were getting 1 shot. That doesn't happen nearly as much as it once did. I agree health totals haven't gone up, so that means DPS has gone down not up. However, if that is an issue for someone maybe add some health to your character. Then again that is my point... Most people don't do that, they instead ask for nerfs or buffs from Zenimax because they are too stubborn to fix it themselves.

I have yet to hear a top Templar ask for buffs or nerfs, they wouldn't be top if they did. They are for those who are struggling with stubbornness and want Zenimax to spend worktime fixing their problems.

As far as healing though DPS burst, NO I don't have any argument supporting that you should be able to in 1 press of a button clear an enemies DPS which required them pushing more than 1 button. 1 cast of BoL should not be able to heal someone from almost dead to full health. I don't agree with that. The fact this is a current issue provides more than enough evidence we are having healing and not dps shoved down our throat.

As far as Zenimax, bending to the requests of the players and responding to legitimate concerns are 2 different things. I wouldn't dare call them perfect cause there are still issues unfixed. I agree (I guess) that I am in Wrobels camp cause I love the combat system. I just wish more attention was giving to fixing issues instead of looking at the infinite # of threads filled with illegitimate concerns from people who refuse to try.

Zheg · March 2016

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

@Zheg No I don't agree with the majority of posts about Templar issues. Sadly because most of them are filled with "wheres our buffs", or "why you nerfing us". The well thought out threads I evaluate each respectively if they actually address issues and don't sound like the former examples.

DPS gone up? No, that was 1.6 when people were getting 1 shot. That doesn't happen nearly as much as it once did. I agree health totals haven't gone up, so that means DPS has gone down not up. However, if that is an issue for someone maybe add some health to your character. Then again that is my point... Most people don't do that, they instead ask for nerfs or buffs from Zenimax because they are too stubborn to fix it themselves.

I have yet to hear a top Templar ask for buffs or nerfs, they wouldn't be top if they did. They are for those who are struggling with stubbornness and want Zenimax to spend worktime fixing their problems.

As far as healing though DPS burst, NO I don't have any argument supporting that you should be able to in 1 press of a button clear an enemies DPS which required them pushing more than 1 button. 1 cast of BoL should not be able to heal someone from almost dead to full health. I don't agree with that. The fact this is a current issue provides more than enough evidence we are having healing and not dps shoved down our throat.

As far as Zenimax, bending to the requests of the players and responding to legitimate concerns are 2 different things. I wouldn't dare call them perfect cause there are still issues unfixed. I agree (I guess) that I am in Wrobels camp cause I love the combat system. I just wish more attention was giving to fixing issues instead of looking at the infinite # of threads filled with illegitimate concerns from people who refuse to try.

I'd name some of the top pve and pvp templars asking for improvements, but then you'd just look worse, and I'll save you your pride. Go browse through the forums, you'll see some of the top pve leaderboard templars posting; you'll also see some of the top pvp templars doing the same.

Damage is up significantly from 1.6, or maybe you just were out to lunch when spell power cure, powerful assault, kena, willpower/agility were added. And the next patch, which tends to be the focus of complaint, we're getting alchemists as well as prox det doing near double damage. You're wrong; I don't know how else to say it.

I run over 50k hp on my templar on a blazing shield spec, and anyone that knows me is rofl'ing at you telling me to add some health to my character.

To the healing vs dps, clearly we are playing different games, because most dps ends up being one button spam in a majority of engagements. The counter to strong healing is major defile and targeting their stamina pool via CCs, but I guess those dps "are struggling with stubbornness and want Zenimax to spend worktime fixing their problems". Trying to act like every single issue is L2P does not, in fact, make people think you yourself are some elite player, it makes all of the competent templars wonder if you even play a templar much less know much about the class.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Look at it from another point of view. Templars have had major issues, some of them nearly two years old, why mess with BoL at this juncture?

My truly honest answer would be because it is too powerful for it being a lazy heal. I would much rather have Healing Ritual keep it's range but be Instant cast. Just being able to stand their like a statue and heal away is my issue with it. But why Zenimax is messing with it, I don't know but it's still the best heal in the game.

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Some mobility and survivability. A charge that is reliable. Shoot, with the changes appearing soon, I'd like a reduction in the cost to cast BoL - which even before factoring the incoming healing reduction, is still the most expensive heal in the game.

We don't need mobility and if you must have it there are ways of getting it. Just like a Stamblade has to get heals outside their class, we have to go outside ours to get mobility.

Survivability? Best cleanse in game, best self healing, our main melee DPS heals us, 2 ultimates that give us protection, a resistance buff that also gives us magicka back. With all the tools we have, you shouldn't have issues with survivability. Heavy Armor is even viable for us unlike some other classes.

Truth is you have to be willing to make adjustments if needed.

SlayerTheDragon · March 2016

It just feels like some of the combat decisions were made by a 3-year-old.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

@Zheg

I'd name some of the top pve and pvp templars asking for improvements, but then you'd just look worse, and I'll save you your pride. Go browse through the forums, you'll see some of the top pve leaderboard templars posting; you'll also see some of the top pvp templars doing the same.

DIfference between "IMPROVEMENTS" and asking for buffs and nerfs. Good players may offer suggestions to improve something while bad players will ask for nerfs or buffs to make up for their shortcomings. Don't worry about naming them cause that is rude and I have read enough of them to drive me to make my point here.

Damage is up significantly from 1.6, or maybe you just were out to lunch when spell power cure, powerful assault, kena, willpower/agility were added. And the next patch, which tends to be the focus of complaint, we're getting alchemists as well as prox det doing near double damage. You're wrong; I don't know how else to say it.

If I was you, I would be more worried about Vicious Death than Alchemist.

I run over 50k hp on my templar on a blazing shield spec, and anyone that knows me is rofl'ing at you telling me to add some health to my character.

Do you take everything someone says to be about you and you only?? If that is the case, then I am sorry to tell you but everyone who knows you is laughing at you being so self-centered. Chill if I knew you had 50k health, I wouldn't have said ZHEG put some points into health cause you keep getting one-shotted. Wait I didn't say that...

To the healing vs dps, clearly we are playing different games, because most dps ends up being one button spam in a majority of engagements. The counter to strong healing is major defile and targeting their stamina pool via CCs, but I guess those dps "are struggling with stubbornness and want Zenimax to spend worktime fixing their problems". Trying to act like every single issue is L2P does not, in fact, make people think you yourself are some elite player, it makes all of the competent templars wonder if you even play a templar much less know much about the class.

Competent players will get the point I am trying to make. Every single issue is a L2P issue? Thought I clarified this. Before I go browse through the forums like you suggested, I am going to check to see if that is what I said... NOPE.

Guess I am done since I don't want to continue to derail your post more into this silliness. Good points have been made from both sides and I made mine.

GreenSoup2HoT · March 2016

When it take's a whole dlc rotation for a core element of pvp (siege) to be fixed after being neglected when Zos did huge value change's prove's how bad the combat team really is.

It should not take this long for change's and fix's. How long did Vampire's have to deal with Camouflage Hunter? How many time's did Camofaluge Hunter need to be fixed until Zos got it right?

These are just example's. It's about time the combat team stepped up their game or else a huge portion of the player base will move on to other titles.

Cinbri · March 2016

Templar without Blinding Flashes equal to Dragonknight without Scales or Nightblade without Cloak or Sorcerer without Streak. And this simple comparison answering on question "Does such class can be equally competitive like rest of classes?" Answer is also simple - No.
And that is simple templar fact.

phillyboy7897 · March 2016

Nerfs are needed. If an ability is overperforming it needs to be nerfed and ZoS has the right idea about this.

The reason is because the alternative is buff every single other ability that fulfills the same role as the OP ability, and this simply takes more time and more coding.

For this reason I say nerf away. Nerf because it saves resources that can be put to fixing lag and abilities that actually are broken. Nerf the cheese of stamblades for the last 3 months. Nerf overpreforming damage abilities because then people might be able to actually tank. Nerf barrier, nerf purge, nerf for the joy of nerfing.

Nerfs are efficient. Nerfs are needed. Nerfs are good when used properly.

The reason why the templar community is freaking the hell out is not b/c there was a nerf but because the class that got nerfed the hardest other than stamblades was templars.

Best I can tell before TG, PvP class preformance:

1. Stamblade (completely broken and overpowered)
2. Magsorc
3. Stam DK
4. Mag NB
5. Mag Temp
6. Stam Sorc
7. Stam Temp
8. Mag Dk (completely broken and gimped)

And there is a noticeable split between 1-4 and 5-8

The top class got nerfed (appropriately) and the bottom class got buffed (appropriately). Stam DK took a hit too this is ok, because they were a strong class.

In between is a cluster.

6. Stam Sorc and 7. Stam Temp are nerfed. (Maybe it is intended for these builds to be weaker as these are Magicka inclined classes?)

2. Mag Sorc buffed across the board. (WTF on this BIG wtf!??!)

4. Mag NB and 5. Mag Temp buffed and nerfed combo. Mag temp nerfs way harder than NB nerfs.

I play mag temp and use 11 skills
5 are nerfed
3 are nerf/buffed combo
0 are buffed.

1 of my skills is getting so junked (purifying light) that I don't even have a choice it has to come off my bar. I really try not whine, but I have to say it is jarring to have an ability that sees almost no use because its not even that good for most people get taken and just completely trashed for literally no reason.

Bro you should thank all those 'whining' templars in the feedback thread b/c channeled focus was another skill that was gonna get completely trashed so hard I would have to take it off my bar, and after that thread they went back on that.

Temps are pissed because we have skills getting picked up randomly and broken. Not nerfed because the class was overpreforming, just randomly selected skills getting trashed.