The Non - CP Campaign Issues

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

Before I even begin, I want to point out that I'm very happy about this Non - CP Campaigns change being added to the game.
Making the "Azura's Star" Campaign, which on both the NA and EU server is the most populated campaign, while also being the only populated campaign until the late hours of the day will improve PVP. Doing this will spread out players since some of them won't like the change, which will force them to switch campaigns, resulting in less lag, and more variety of campaigns to choose from, instead of having dead campaigns that are completely controlled by only one alliance.

My problem with this change, is that I'm afraid Zenimax won't change the battle spirit buff accordingly to the No Champion Point feature of those campaigns.
Since most people in PVP have alot of champion points, they currently get drastic bonuses to their stats, and when it comes to damage, it can be increased by up to 25%, whether it's 25% increased physical damage, or 25% increased magic damage, etc. Since the Imperial city patch, damage became a lot lower, since the Battle spirit buff had it's "Reduced Damage Taken" bumped up to 50% from 20%, which is a major difference.
Removing all the bonuses from the Champion points and leaving the 50% Less healing received, 50% less damage shields, and 50% "less damage received" the way they are now will be a mistake. Damage will be too low for the type of game-play ESO PVP has now.
I believe all of those numbers should be reduced. Just an example: In the Non - CP campaigns, the "battle spirit" buff will decrease all damage taken by 20%. healing and damage shields will be reduced by 20% too. I'm not saying these numbers are the best ones, But I believe a change has to be made before adding these campaigns into the game. Adding 1 more update to the PTS with the changes i just mentioned will be a good idea, letting people test it out, and see what's better.

In addition to what I mentioned. Lowering the "Less healing received", in the Non - CP campaigns will also help Percentage Based Healing be more effective, for example: Dragon's blood, a dragonknight healing ability which suffers the most from the battle spirit buff, has it's healing reduced by 50%, while the healing is based off of the missing Percentage of -> Missing<- health. That means the more maximum health you have, the bigger the heal, and since patch 1.6 having high health for damage dealers is usually not the best choice, and the heal is only truly suppose to work while the dragonknight is at low health.

Reducing the 50% less damage shields will also help the templar ability "Sun Shield" and it's morphs, since the shield, like dragon's blood, is based of a percentage of maximum health, and also highly suffers from the battle spirit buff.

Of-course bringing back "soft caps" and changing to battle spirit buff to what it was before the Imperial City Patch will be the best fix for those kind of abilities, and to PVP in general, although not everyone will share this specific opinion.

Please share your thoughts on this idea, let me know if you agree, and if you have ideas of your own, don't hesitate to share them with everyone.

Robbmrp · February 2016

@ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert

Was the removal of Battlespirit overlooked for the No CP Campaign? The whole reason that it was put into place was to stop one shots that were created from those players which had huge amounts of CP over those that didn't.

Currently, I cannot see any reason that Battlespirit would still be needed.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Robbmrp if all CP Bonuses will be disabled, all damage will be reduced by a massive amount. Take magicka dragonknights for example: I have 2800 spell damage buffed, and 31K magicka with a 100 points into elemental expert, and my non crit whips on the squishiest of targets you'll find, usually don't go over 4000 damage, not to mention targets with just a little more than 10K spell resist.
This won't affect classes with high base damage too much, such as: stamina night-blade, stamina dragon-knight, magicka sorcerers.. etc. but some classes will suffer too much from the current battle spirit reduction combined with the No CP.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Robbmrp oh sorry, I thought you said that you see no reason for the battle spirit to be nerfed, my bad mate ^^

exiledtyrant · February 2016

Although CP has definitely contributed to higher potential damage and shielding etc, VR 16 and power creep on equipment also came with the increased battle spirit patch. The norm of 3k- 3.5k weapon power soared to 4-6k+, and spell power almost doubled from 2k-2.5k ranges to 4k+. Lowering the buff back down may not account for all the damage that has been introduced. Sets like Molag Keana and now clever alchemist are still going to be pushing the damage boundaries with or without CP.

I think it would be better to leave battle spirit where it is and maybe go for small incremental decreases over time if time to kill has been noticeably impacted.

paul_j · February 2016

I think with or without cp pvpers don't care. It's just a dangling carrot of hope, for us that are bad, before we get caught and killed regardless lol!

ToRelax · February 2016

Very good post, 100% agreed.

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Although CP has definitely contributed to higher potential damage and shielding etc, VR 16 and power creep on equipment also came with the increased battle spirit patch. The norm of 3k- 3.5k weapon power soared to 4-6k+, and spell power almost doubled from 2k-2.5k ranges to 4k+. Lowering the buff back down may not account for all the damage that has been introduced. Sets like Molag Keana and now clever alchemist are still going to be pushing the damage boundaries with or without CP.

I think it would be better to leave battle spirit where it is and maybe go for small incremental decreases over time if time to kill has been noticeably impacted.

The damage stats you get in sustainable non cp builds is still way lower than in cp campaigns. Maybe it's not the best idea to get rid of dmg/healing/shield reductions altogether, at least if that'd be the only change, but reducing them is certainly a good idea.

NovaShadow · February 2016

The zergs will get bigger to compensate which means more aoe spam to make up for the lowered dmg which means even more lag and longer fights. It'll be worse than what it is now.

Aunatar · February 2016

WTB 1.5 and its all good

Enodoc · February 2016

I'm pretty sure they said that they can't split game systems by campaign. Battle Spirit is Battle Spirit, and there's only one of them.

BEZDNA · February 2016

I'm ok with dmg beeing to low, since ppl will die becaous they will run out of resources - they will not be CC break endlessly, and will not be able to spam heals, shields etc.

Huggalump · February 2016

BEZDNA wrote: »

I'm ok with dmg beeing to low, since ppl will die becaous they will run out of resources - they will not be CC break endlessly, and will not be able to spam heals, shields etc.

agree with this. the biggest thing about champion points, imo, is the unlimited resources. I would like to see how it plays out before we adjust battle spirit.

Mojmir · February 2016

Anyone notice a decrease in lap with cp off?

ToRelax · February 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they said that they can't split game systems by campaign. Battle Spirit is Battle Spirit, and there's only one of them.

Since they are able to give us Battle Spirit only inside Cyrodiil, they should be able to not apply it on a certain campaign and give us another buff instead - called Battle Spirit.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@BEZDNA With no CP people with run out of resources if they change the battle spirit buff, and if they don't - which I am more than happy about since resource management is such a small part of the game right now. It's simply the damage being too low, and especially with low damage classes such as Stamina templar, Stamina sorcerer, and most of all, magicka dragonknight, I'm afraid fights will never end. And if they do, I'm predicting they will be sluggish and long.
Imagine 2 magicka dragonknights hitting each other for 2000 damage with a Lava whip... that kind of fight will probably never end.
I'm not saying the changes to battle spirit should be drastic, this is why I think testing different battle spirit versions on the PTS will be a good idea.

silky_soft · February 2016

Just put it on 7 day campaigns not 30. It's not even needed. Those with 2k cp can't use it now there is a cap. Even then when cap is raised they want to do a laughable 50cp.

I'll only lose 15% damage on my stamblade and I made a magblade for *** and giggle. Was getting constant 10k heavy destro crit on no cp. So have fun on your no cp gank campaign.

Firerock2 · February 2016

The sets introduced with the new Battlespirit buff and the sets introduced after it have boosted up total spellpower/weapon damage. The battlespirit buff is fine the way it is because of these new armor sets. Please keep the battlespirit buff the way it is, insta kill builds are not good for pvp.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2016

completely agree. revert to old battlespirit for the non cp/non vet campaigns

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2016

Huggalump wrote: »

BEZDNA wrote: »

I'm ok with dmg beeing to low, since ppl will die becaous they will run out of resources - they will not be CC break endlessly, and will not be able to spam heals, shields etc.

agree with this. the biggest thing about champion points, imo, is the unlimited resources. I would like to see how it plays out before we adjust battle spirit.

well it will be similar to before cp was introduced but with a big nerf to healing shields and damage from the higher battle spirit nerf.

there is no reason to have -50% everything when everyone is going to loose 2-3k of each resource, - 25% damage/defence/ much much less reduce cost/regain via NO CP

Sounomi · February 2016

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

Making the "Azura's Star" Campaign, which on both the NA and EU server is the most populated campaign, while also being the only populated campaign until the late hours of the day will improve PVP. Doing this will spread out players since some of them won't like the change, which will force them to switch campaigns, resulting in less lag, and more variety of campaigns to choose from, instead of having dead campaigns that are completely controlled by only one alliance.

Or people will just flock to the other 30 day campaign where CP is still enabled causing Azura's Star to become empty and pretty much dominated by one alliance at a time, while the lag issue persists. I actually know of no one that seriously PvPs that wants a CP-less campaign and so this change will likely do nothing except cause people to change campaigns.

DaveMoeDee · February 2016

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I think it would be better to leave battle spirit where it is and maybe go for small incremental decreases over time if time to kill has been noticeably impacted.

If it will mean adjusting gear to compensate, all at once is better.

Plus, how many times do you want to have the goalposts moved?

Francescolg · February 2016

Do you really think you'll survive much longer? :'( ..if the main source of damage are the itemization (molag kena, 4k spell dmg, etc.) and the class-mechanics (instant burst + mobility) and not the CP-system (25% dmg)?

Even with 50%-reduction from battle-spirit and no-CP in a campaign, the burst capabilities of certain classes remain untouched

The gap between less-well equipped (/experienced) players and power gamers will still be there, imo!

I hope I'm wrong

ToRelax · February 2016

Francescolg wrote: »

Do you really think you'll survive much longer? :'( ..if the main source of damage are the itemization (molag kena, 4k spell dmg, etc.) and the class-mechanics (instant burst + mobility) and not the CP-system (25% dmg)?

Even with 50%-reduction from battle-spirit and no-CP in a campaign, the burst capabilities of certain classes remain untouched The gap between less-well equipped (/experienced) players and power gamers will still be there, imo!

I hope I'm wrong

If no cp is going to hurt DKs and Templars, then for another reason: that without softcaps, CP were a mechanic to still spread resources out on a character, although inflating them. That the actual passives are multiplicative isn't helping the one with lower numbers at all.
Especially DK though has a chance to do relatively well on that campaign thanks to Battle Roar, as it would be about resource management - though both DK's and Templar's resource management is crippled by blocking nerfs and their weak shields.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Firerock2 But then everyone would be forced to pick only from the new sets, specifically the Clever Alchemist set since it offers a lot of burst. That doesn't really seem right in my point of view.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Sounomi I'ts hard to make such a big assumption before the thing was even tested out. I do know people who support the idea of a non CP campaign, while I also know people who don't. I honestly cant see the non CP campaigns being empty like you mentioned, but we can only know after the campaigns are introduced to the game.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Francescolg I absolutely agree that some bursty classes, especially with bursty builds still won't have as many issues as classes that just have low burst, or rely on dots for damage, since resistance from CP tree will also be disabled, even though most people don't put all of their points into resistances anyway.

Firerock2 · February 2016

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@Firerock2 But then everyone would be forced to pick only from the new sets, specifically the Clever Alchemist set since it offers a lot of burst. That doesn't really seem right in my point of view.

The kena set and the willpower set were both sets from the IC update. Prior to the IC update it was harder to stack spell damage to around 3k. It's much easier now and its not just because of the sets coming with this next update, if you read back at my original post I specifically said the sets added with the new battle spirit buff. That buff came with the IC update and was offset by the power creep of the new gear and vr levels.

With the new gear you are talking about there is no change in the battle spirit buff. This means that we can now reach even higher spell damage/weapon damage levels with no change in the battle spirit buff to offset this power creep. A reduction in CP or no CP at all is a nice way to offset this power creep. Reducing the battle spirit buff would just negate this.

Personally, I think it's great if the no CP campaign reduces people's sustainability. That will not only make people have to actually think during fights and sustain themselves instead of rapidly spamming DPS skills but it also might force people to spec into some regen instead of raw damage. The ttk as it is right now is already too low. PvP will be better if you don't die in two seconds. However this is just my opinion, the best PvP I ever had was in 1.5 but I had to quit due to school. I came back at the end of 1.6 to the current abomination we call PvP now and it has never been the same. So if you can't tell, I'm for anything that increases the time to kill and forces resource management because that, in my opinion, is actual skill.

In summary, reducing the battle spirit buff would go against the entire point of the No CP campaign, which is to reduce damage and sustainability.

ToRelax · February 2016

Firerock2 wrote: »

InBedWithMySelf wrote: »

@Firerock2 But then everyone would be forced to pick only from the new sets, specifically the Clever Alchemist set since it offers a lot of burst. That doesn't really seem right in my point of view.

The kena set and the willpower set were both sets from the IC update. Prior to the IC update it was harder to stack spell damage to around 3k. It's much easier now and its not just because of the sets coming with this next update, if you read back at my original post I specifically said the sets added with the new battle spirit buff. That buff came with the IC update and was offset by the power creep of the new gear and vr levels.

With the new gear you are talking about there is no change in the battle spirit buff. This means that we can now reach even higher spell damage/weapon damage levels with no change in the battle spirit buff to offset this power creep. A reduction in CP or no CP at all is a nice way to offset this power creep. Reducing the battle spirit buff would just negate this.

Personally, I think it's great if the no CP campaign reduces people's sustainability. That will not only make people have to actually think during fights and sustain themselves instead of rapidly spamming DPS skills but it also might force people to spec into some regen instead of raw damage. The ttk as it is right now is already too low. PvP will be better if you don't die in two seconds. However this is just my opinion, the best PvP I ever had was in 1.5 but I had to quit due to school. I came back at the end of 1.6 to the current abomination we call PvP now and it has never been the same. So if you can't tell, I'm for anything that increases the time to kill and forces resource management because that, in my opinion, is actual skill.

In summary, reducing the battle spirit buff would go against the entire point of the No CP campaign, which is to reduce damage and sustainability.

I agree with the goal, not nessacarily the way. Even though part of the Battle Spirit buff may have been justified in the IC update, our stats certainly didn't go up by enough to completely offset it. 20k Fragments weren't uncommon for bursty builds in 1.6, but it's way above what is going on now. Making resource management harder for a high damage build already forces a tradeoff between damage and sustain, wich will lower the damage available in the non CP campaign. And while Alchemist may be a great set, it still only gives it's bonus only 1/3 or at best half the time, wich means when resource management matters, it is both harder to kill a good player with it and harder for a good player as well to use effectively (because he's outnumbered).

tl;dr We currently have lower damage than 1.6 and no CP already means players have to trade away some damage for sustain.

InBedWithMySelf · February 2016

@Firerock2 I agree, and I'm also in favor of resource management and lower damage rather than burst. As long as zenimax makes adjustments to the battle spirit buff eventually, of-course only if any changes need to be made. Perhaps implementing the non CP campaigns with no changes to the battle spirit buff might actually be the way to go. But if it isn't I hope zenimax responds and looks into the issue.