Wrobels/ZOS's Templar Vision Impact on Player vs Enviroment/Player

Nifty2g · February 2016

First off, I love this game it is amazing and ever since launch I played a Sorcerer then made a move onto Templar back in 1.5 because I loved the class, it was a fun thing to do healing and then figuring out how to maximize my damage and healing at the same time and then that became my build. I needed to be very mobile to be able to do it and then that whole playstyle took a massive increase of volume of Templars doing it in 1.6, everyone started to become more mobile learning their class a lot more figuring out how to actually deal good damage on a Templar. I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP a lot of Templar DPS arised from PvP and a lot of Stamplars too, with @Alcast and his crew shifting the meta in VDSA causing everyone to pretty much reroll a Stamplar.

So, I have been doing a lot of thinking about what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility, it's a fast paced action MMO with constant dynamic mechanics to the environment, constant dynamic AoE's that you need to move out from whether it be from PvE or PvP. The class as a whole is having it's mobility stripped away from it. Causing Templars to be still, taking on a whole new direction - an ugly direction

The issue here is that a lot of players do not want ZOS to take this direction with the class as it was so perfect how it was 2 updates ago and has been taking a lot of indirect nerfs and changes to it for absolutely no reason, it was the most rounded and diverse class, now there are many hidden internal cooldowns and broken abilities that are not explained nor touched on.

Now to the main issue, slowly and surely ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground? Why are you trying to bring it back for Templars in such an odd way that no one even wants?

There are many hidden cooldowns behind Puncturing Sweep and it feels so much weaker on PTS, theres something that hasn't been explained and ZOS are neglecting it.
Toppling Charge is being ignored and won't ever be fixed.
Sunshield is barely getting increases
Dark Flare has been buffed in conjunction to @Wrobels new amazing player housing idea. (we all see this)
The only class without access to Major Berserk
The Breath of Life nerf was completely unreasonable - you always wanted one class to be the healer, now this is being slowly stripped away from Templars and not being changed.

There are some really nice Templar changes in the PTS but honestly, the class is taking too much of a hit and it's ruining my personal experience and I hope Zenimax actually take this feedback from the Templar thread and fix up the class hugely.
I have no idea why ZOS thinks it's good to go around in circles when something is so well balanced and perfect they change it around and make it worse without actually talking to players and taking their feedback.

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

Duiwel · February 2016

At least Jabs still does a self heal OP

Nifty2g · February 2016

Duiwel wrote: »

At least Jabs still does a self heal OP

The Major Mending change was probably the only good direction they took from the PTS. Other than that, it's honestly completely ridiculous

nagarjunna · February 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

@BalticBlues summed it up well...

BalticBlues wrote: »

I once had the priviledge to work for a team of one of the best computer game designers of this world, Sid Meier (best known for "Civilization"). Several magazines put Meier at the top of their listing of the "Most Influential People in Computer Gaming of All Time". Meier is incredibly bright and successful, but everybody makes mistakes, and he would be the first to admit he also did. From his less successful designs, Sid gives this advice:

Sid Meier: "The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
In Sid’s words, the player must be the "star": "As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."

This thread shows why Templars are losing the fun, feeling more like victims instead of "stars".
We need the help of a designer who brings back the fun, not takes even more of it.
We need the help of a designer who puts our fun in the game first, not his fun as designer.
We need the help of a designer who designs class skills according to content requirements.

'Bout time the put their Customer Focus hats on.

Robbmrp · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

@BalticBlues summed it up well...

BalticBlues wrote: »

I once had the priviledge to work for a team of one of the best computer game designers of this world, Sid Meier (best known for "Civilization"). Several magazines put Meier at the top of their listing of the "Most Influential People in Computer Gaming of All Time". Meier is incredibly bright and successful, but everybody makes mistakes, and he would be the first to admit he also did. From his less successful designs, Sid gives this advice:

Sid Meier: "The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
In Sid’s words, the player must be the "star": "As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."

This thread shows why Templars are losing the fun, feeling more like victims instead of "stars".
We need the help of a designer who brings back the fun, not takes even more of it.
We need the help of a designer who puts our fun in the game first, not his fun as designer.
We need the help of a designer who designs class skills according to content requirements.

'Bout time the put their Customer Focus hats on.

But once they put their Focus Hats on they can't it off, or they will only have thought process capability for 8 seconds.....

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

@BalticBlues summed it up well...

BalticBlues wrote: »

I once had the priviledge to work for a team of one of the best computer game designers of this world, Sid Meier (best known for "Civilization"). Several magazines put Meier at the top of their listing of the "Most Influential People in Computer Gaming of All Time". Meier is incredibly bright and successful, but everybody makes mistakes, and he would be the first to admit he also did. From his less successful designs, Sid gives this advice:

Sid Meier: "The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
In Sid’s words, the player must be the "star": "As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."

This thread shows why Templars are losing the fun, feeling more like victims instead of "stars".
We need the help of a designer who brings back the fun, not takes even more of it.
We need the help of a designer who puts our fun in the game first, not his fun as designer.
We need the help of a designer who designs class skills according to content requirements.

'Bout time the put their Customer Focus hats on.

But once they put their Focus Hats on they can't it off, or they will only have thought process capability for 8 seconds.....

Are you saying they can't think outside the box? Or is it circle?

Robbmrp · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

@BalticBlues summed it up well...

BalticBlues wrote: »

I once had the priviledge to work for a team of one of the best computer game designers of this world, Sid Meier (best known for "Civilization"). Several magazines put Meier at the top of their listing of the "Most Influential People in Computer Gaming of All Time". Meier is incredibly bright and successful, but everybody makes mistakes, and he would be the first to admit he also did. From his less successful designs, Sid gives this advice:

Sid Meier: "The Player Should Have The Fun, Not The Designer Or The Computer"
In Sid’s words, the player must be the "star": "As designers, we need to be the player’s greatest advocate during a game’s development, always considering carefully how design decisions affect the player’s agency in the world."

This thread shows why Templars are losing the fun, feeling more like victims instead of "stars".
We need the help of a designer who brings back the fun, not takes even more of it.
We need the help of a designer who puts our fun in the game first, not his fun as designer.
We need the help of a designer who designs class skills according to content requirements.

'Bout time the put their Customer Focus hats on.

But once they put their Focus Hats on they can't it off, or they will only have thought process capability for 8 seconds.....

Are you saying they can't think outside the box? Or is it circle?

From some of the changes that have been made, it leaves us to question whether they think at all....

Seriously, who at ZOS thought "Ok, the Templar is the main healer without a doubt, we forced them into that role. So lets kick it up a notch and remove one of the minor heals from Breath of Life." Yeah, that's a really good idea......SAID NO ONE......

Jura23 · February 2016

Waste of time. @AfkNinja made a thread 2 moths ago and since then, threads and feedback on Templars were endless. You could compile all that into book. All was more or less ignored and the few reactions they did were never consulted with the community, so their usefulness ends up questionable. No reason to think anything will change now all of sudden.

Molag_Crow · February 2016

Totally agree with pretty much everything you said. Without mobility we are screwed.

ninibini · February 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

First off, I love this game it is amazing and ever since launch I played a Sorcerer then made a move onto Templar back in 1.5 because I loved the class, it was a fun thing to do healing and then figuring out how to maximize my damage and healing at the same time and then that became my build. I needed to be very mobile to be able to do it and then that whole playstyle took a massive increase of volume of Templars doing it in 1.6, everyone started to become more mobile learning their class a lot more figuring out how to actually deal good damage on a Templar. I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP a lot of Templar DPS arised from PvP and a lot of Stamplars too, with @Alcast and his crew shifting the meta in VDSA causing everyone to pretty much reroll a Stamplar.

So, I have been doing a lot of thinking about what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility, it's a fast paced action MMO with constant dynamic mechanics to the environment, constant dynamic AoE's that you need to move out from whether it be from PvE or PvP. The class as a whole is having it's mobility stripped away from it. Causing Templars to be still, taking on a whole new direction - an ugly direction

The issue here is that a lot of players do not want ZOS to take this direction with the class as it was so perfect how it was 2 updates ago and has been taking a lot of indirect nerfs and changes to it for absolutely no reason, it was the most rounded and diverse class, now there are many hidden internal cooldowns and broken abilities that are not explained nor touched on.

Now to the main issue, slowly and surely ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground? Why are you trying to bring it back for Templars in such an odd way that no one even wants?
There are many hidden cooldowns behind Puncturing Sweep and it feels so much weaker on PTS, theres something that hasn't been explained and ZOS are neglecting it.

Toppling Charge is being ignored and won't ever be fixed.

Sunshield is barely getting increases

Dark Flare has been buffed in conjunction to @Wrobels new amazing player housing idea. (we all see this)

The only class without access to Major Berserk

The Breath of Life nerf was completely unreasonable - you always wanted one class to be the healer, now this is being slowly stripped away from Templars and not being changed.

There are some really nice Templar changes in the PTS but honestly, the class is taking too much of a hit and it's ruining my personal experience and I hope Zenimax actually take this feedback from the Templar thread and fix up the class hugely.
I have no idea why ZOS thinks it's good to go around in circles when something is so well balanced and perfect they change it around and make it worse without actually talking to players and taking their feedback.

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.

Fully agree with you here.

Ghosted · February 2016

Breath of life is not balanced, in pvp or PVE imo. Its an easy mode button for a LARGE number of underachievers in cyrodiil and in dungeons. There should be more to healing than rotating BoL spams and ult heals. I agree about mobility 100%, I also don't think that the change to breath of life is going to fix the issue in cyrodiil. Groups will just get more Templars to spam and the nerf will mean nothing.

It has to start with the smart healing mechanic, don't really have the answer for how it can be fixed/balanced but adding another degree of difficulty somehow to BoL would encourage smarter play, and could cause smaller groups to be more successful. My own goal for balancing Templar would be to increase mobility and survivability (not BoL), balancing their dps to be up to par with other classes and decrease ease of heal spamming in groups. Make it happen guys lol.

richardjameshillb16_ESO · February 2016

I hope Zenimax take notice of your feedback. (Sadly we know they will not)

I use your excellent guide http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235221/a-guide-to-magicka-templar-dps-thieves-guild-updated/p1

If Long term players who take the time to help the wider community are thinking of packing it in, Then the developer ignores such things at their peril.

I can back after a year away, to take a look at the game, with the intention of buying a sub and running through some of the DLC,.

My old main was a Sorcerer, one of the reasons I quit last time was the ridiculous forced grouping / all on the same stage of the quest Craglorn nonsense, and the constant changes to PVE skills to appease PVP (Why they don't have separate versions of skills for each I have no idea.)

Sadly I see nothing has changed, ZoS make changes that no-one asked for, ruining people builds, and despite 50 pages of feedback , including this from Nifty a long time Templar, They will go ahead with it anyway.

I will be keeping my money in my pocket. Shame because its a really nice game (with some odd missing MMO features, but it has a charm none the less)

Molag_Crow · February 2016

Ghosted wrote: »

Breath of life is not balanced, in pvp or PVE imo. Its an easy mode button for a LARGE number of underachievers in cyrodiil and in dungeons. There should be more to healing than rotating BoL spams and ult heals. I agree about mobility 100%, I also don't think that the change to breath of life is going to fix the issue in cyrodiil. Groups will just get more Templars to spam and the nerf will mean nothing.

It has to start with the smart healing mechanic, don't really have the answer for how it can be fixed/balanced but adding another degree of difficulty somehow to BoL would encourage smarter play, and could cause smaller groups to be more successful. My own goal for balancing Templar would be to increase mobility and survivability (not BoL), balancing their dps to be up to par with other classes and decrease ease of heal spamming in groups. Make it happen guys lol.

Yeah, you're right... the changes to about BoL hasn't really made us weaker.

Ghosted · February 2016

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Yeah, you're right... the changes to about BoL hasn't really made us weaker.

I was more concerned about the channel focus nerf than BoL nerf honestly, my group is generally competent enough to not need me chain spamming heals on everyone at the same time. Looks like channel is getting another look at least.

babylon · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

'Bout time the put their Customer Focus hats on.

But the Customer Focus hats are BoP and the designers didn't run the content themselves.

eliisra · February 2016

I can swallow the BoL nerf to. Like 90% of my time "healing" in PvE I'm not actually healing, I'm the robotic resource regenerator or buffer for magicka starved dps. Likely sorc's will be favoured healers for casual/speed run PvE content after this and top dps lol. But w/e and pet heal still doesn't work at all in PvP and likely not reliable in trials either.

What I cant accept and what makes me not want to play at all is how they managed to nerf the last sliver of mobility the templar class had. They even managed to nerf templar resource management, which is great news for a class that's not benefiting from Elemental Drain lol.

But like @Nifty2g points out, high end content as well as PvP requires movement or you're dead and waste of space really. Meanwhile we have a combat designer that seems to think this game operates like a 90's turn based RPG.

Not just the damn Rune we're suppose to stand in and die like idiots in or fact that Toppling Charge still wont work. Also how I cant even take advantage of the group speed buff from Rapid Maneuver next patch to avoid getting blown up. If I try to heal myself it will go away lol. So like do I wanna stand still in my little Rune and die or run while being unable to heal myself(because than I loose my buff) and die from that?

Sun Shield still offers 0 protection in PvP. We have no actual defensive skills left. Still supposed to stand-our-ground and defend a house according to @Wrobels who's vision of the templar class has 0 connection to how you play the actual game.

WillhelmBlack · February 2016

Is this in regards to losing the buffs from Rune Focus when stepping out of it? They reverted it in latest patch on PTS. Stays on you for 8 seconds and quite rightfully.

Edit: May as well give my 2p whilst I'm here.

I don't want speed on my Templar nor do I want him to have the best DPS. I wouldnt mind if I had to stay in my house as long as my house was deadly and a safe haven for my group. Templar should have abilities like roots and mines. Sorcs which are supposed to be the kity mages of ESO, THEY have those abilities as well as being the top DPS class.
How is that so? I've been doing a few duels and literally all a Sorc has to do is camp mines and stack huge shields. Is this Wrobels vision for Templar? We have the same ability to heal now, what is the point in the Templar class?

Fat_Cat45 · February 2016

eliisra wrote: »

Also how I cant even take advantage of the group speed buff from Rapid Maneuver next patch to avoid getting blown up. If I try to heal myself it will go away lol. So like do I wanna stand still in my little Rune and die or run while being unable to heal myself(because than I loose my buff) and die from that?

Self heals do not remove rapids. ANY source of healing that hits another player will AKA using Breath of Life to heal yourself and then hits another nearby ally.

Jesh · February 2016

I agree with @Nifty2g and am really annoyed at @Wrobel 's words about class balance on ESO Live. On the one hand it was stated that they wanted all classes to be able to do all things (such is the Elder Scrolls Way), and in the same breath of air he talked about DKs not having executes in order to make them unique and Templars not having mobility making them unique!
Are you out of your mind or just out of your depth? Whats ending up happening is simply just making 2 classes of the four less fun to play.
That's why I started leveling a NB and a Sorc, but I really shouldn't have to.

DHale · February 2016

Just level an alt. Let Templars die an honorable death. Stick a fork it it's done.

Grunim · February 2016

DHale wrote: »

Just level an alt. Let Templars die an honorable death. Stick a fork it it's done.

*Rings the dinner bell* Yep it's done. I'm leveling up a magicka nightblade now since they seem to be rather versatile and I appreciate versatility. Templars lack diversity right now.

Hand_Bacon · February 2016

Nifty nailed it.

WillhelmBlack · February 2016

Grunim wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Just level an alt. Let Templars die an honorable death. Stick a fork it it's done.

*Rings the dinner bell* Yep it's done. I'm leveling up a magicka nightblade now since they seem to be rather versatile and I appreciate versatility. Templars lack diversity right now.

Doing the same.

Kilandros · February 2016

Grunim wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Just level an alt. Let Templars die an honorable death. Stick a fork it it's done.

*Rings the dinner bell* Yep it's done. I'm leveling up a magicka nightblade now since they seem to be rather versatile and I appreciate versatility. Templars lack diversity right now.

Can confirm. Magicka NB is in a beautiful spot right now. Competitive DPS, Utility, powerful off-heals... It's awesome. Get two Magicka NBs DPSing in a group and you basically don't need a healer.

acw37162 · February 2016

Major Mending, nice change

Dark Flare, upped the damage to ridiculous level to make for the unwilling a to change cast plus travel time, nice change the range on this may be the fest spam DPS in th Evans when this hit live.

BOL, I'm meh on the change, I think you could have reduced the healing the more targets it hit and made th heals line of sight instead of hit it took but I'm still Meh, healers will still spam cast this,my opinion the change will actually make this worse.

Healing Ritual, seriously you guys have the data on how many Templar players have actually purchased and leveled up th is skill, bad joke don't even talk about Healing Ritual

Their is a serious deconnect between what the developers want Templars to be, what they have been given the tools to be, what the players want the class to be, and how he class actually plays in the game.

The disconnect is rather substantial at this point.

As proved by a 50 page thread in the PTS forums and half a dozen to a dozen threads created since PTS went up.

The struggle is real here

Kammakazi · February 2016

Wait a minute... Only 2 out of 4 classes have Major Berserk which are Nightblades (Reaper's Mark) and Sorcerers (Summon Storm Atronach)

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FireCowCommando · February 2016

"Igneous Weapons (Molten Weapons morph): This morph will now grant you and your allies the Major Brutality buff for 30 seconds, in addition to the Major Sorcery buff." As of next update

SirDopey · February 2016

I've been taking a bunch of screenshots the last few days highlighting the damage I do to people that arn't kiting around or roll dodging. I'm going to retract names and post them tonight.

Moral of the story is though, a "this is my house" mentality will never work for classes in this game given the potential burst damage that's currently available. Out of stealth, on a stationary target, my NB can hit for 30K damage against players, last night I one shot a grand overlord so I'm not talking trash players either. That's an insane amount of burst damage. If a Templar is meant to be their strongest staying within a small radius rune - they're going to be constantly instagibbed, fact.

Bossdonut · February 2016

Time to FOTM. DK already vet 4 lmfaonaise

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Grunim wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Just level an alt. Let Templars die an honorable death. Stick a fork it it's done.

*Rings the dinner bell* Yep it's done. I'm leveling up a magicka nightblade now since they seem to be rather versatile and I appreciate versatility. Templars lack diversity right now.

Lucky me, I have a v16 in every class, and the other four are in varying vet levels. Once they remove levels it'll be moot anyway.

Islyn · February 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

First off, I love this game it is amazing and ever since launch I played a Sorcerer then made a move onto Templar back in 1.5 because I loved the class, it was a fun thing to do healing and then figuring out how to maximize my damage and healing at the same time and then that became my build. I needed to be very mobile to be able to do it and then that whole playstyle took a massive increase of volume of Templars doing it in 1.6, everyone started to become more mobile learning their class a lot more figuring out how to actually deal good damage on a Templar. I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP a lot of Templar DPS arised from PvP and a lot of Stamplars too, with @Alcast and his crew shifting the meta in VDSA causing everyone to pretty much reroll a Stamplar.

So, I have been doing a lot of thinking about what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility, it's a fast paced action MMO with constant dynamic mechanics to the environment, constant dynamic AoE's that you need to move out from whether it be from PvE or PvP. The class as a whole is having it's mobility stripped away from it. Causing Templars to be still, taking on a whole new direction - an ugly direction

The issue here is that a lot of players do not want ZOS to take this direction with the class as it was so perfect how it was 2 updates ago and has been taking a lot of indirect nerfs and changes to it for absolutely no reason, it was the most rounded and diverse class, now there are many hidden internal cooldowns and broken abilities that are not explained nor touched on.

Now to the main issue, slowly and surely ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground? Why are you trying to bring it back for Templars in such an odd way that no one even wants?
There are many hidden cooldowns behind Puncturing Sweep and it feels so much weaker on PTS, theres something that hasn't been explained and ZOS are neglecting it.

Toppling Charge is being ignored and won't ever be fixed.

Sunshield is barely getting increases

Dark Flare has been buffed in conjunction to @Wrobels new amazing player housing idea. (we all see this)

The only class without access to Major Berserk

The Breath of Life nerf was completely unreasonable - you always wanted one class to be the healer, now this is being slowly stripped away from Templars and not being changed.

There are some really nice Templar changes in the PTS but honestly, the class is taking too much of a hit and it's ruining my personal experience and I hope Zenimax actually take this feedback from the Templar thread and fix up the class hugely.
I have no idea why ZOS thinks it's good to go around in circles when something is so well balanced and perfect they change it around and make it worse without actually talking to players and taking their feedback.

I sincerely hope ZOS that you listen to your playerbase for once especially on this issue.