Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

It would seem by the last couple major patches that you (ZOS) want Pet Sorcs to be a thing; this DLC certainly helps. I personally do not mind playing around with different Pet Sorc build options, even tho I do not see them being truly end-game, min-max viable. None the less, two suggestions, if I may, to help make Pet Sorcs more viable:

1. You MUST make pets stealth while you are stealthed in PvP. This of course does not apply to the Storm Atro, but the Twilight and Clanfear need to stealth when you go into stealth.

2. Unlike #1, this is more of a bone to throw than a necessity... It might help encourage Pet Sorc builds if you either scale the Necropotence set to 16 or create a new set with a similar 5 piece bonus. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would absolutely try a Pet build (have a couple interesting theory builds in mind) if I could use a v16 Necropotence set.

Anyway, just something to consider.
Respectfully~

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I agree 100% I hate having to use v12 necropentence since no other set really goes with pets.

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds vaible.

I didn't realize that they didn't scale. Why would they not??! If that is the case, then this should certainly be on the list.

i'd personally not want pets to be able to stealth buuut rather grant the stealth attack damage intake reduction while active as well as allowing battle spirit to benefit them

Derra wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds vaible.

I didn't realize that they didn't scale. Why would they not??! If that is the case, then this should certainly be on the list.

They scale with only magica - which is part of the problem why pets are such a niche spec. You have to fully commit to gearing for only magica to make them vaible. They don´t work well with "normal" gearsetups.

This is something @Wrobel or @ZOS_GinaBruno needs to read.

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds vaible.

I didn't realize that they didn't scale. Why would they not??! If that is the case, then this should certainly be on the list.

They scale with only magica - which is part of the problem why pets are such a niche spec. You have to fully commit to gearing for only magica to make them vaible. They don´t work well with "normal" gearsetups.

This is something @Wrobel or @ZOS_GinaBruno needs to read.

Should be easily adjusted - just learned yesterday that attronarch actually scales with spelldmg. After confirming that i cried a little because it makes even less sense to have the other two scale with magica only

Probably because all Ultimates scale the exact same way if I am not mistaken.

Instead of sneaking, shouldn't be good if pets who aren't in fight just disappear (like a semi-unsummoning) if the player is stealthed ?And they can re-summon themselves when the player is unsthealthed, like they are doing when they are too far from the player. No more problem with non-sneaky pets, almost no coding needed, and no problem with pets who sneak but be easily detectable because they don't move at the right place. And it's more lore friendly, a flying daedra or a clannfear aren't really… sneaky.

Derra wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds vaible.

I didn't realize that they didn't scale. Why would they not??! If that is the case, then this should certainly be on the list.

They scale with only magica - which is part of the problem why pets are such a niche spec. You have to fully commit to gearing for only magica to make them vaible. They don´t work well with "normal" gearsetups.

Just to throw my lot into this subject....

I don't think it's a bad thing that your "normal" setup doesn't work well with a pet build. Having pet damage scale with spell damage would just kill variance, just strap on your Kagrenac set and away you go. Make one gear set up legendary and use it for all scenarios, quite dull.

Having to fully commit into a build is not bad thing. A bad thing is not having any realistic option to commit to.

For example, there is a ridiculous number of available v16 sets, where boosting spell damage is their main theme:

1. Kagrenac
2. Julianos
3. Clever Alchemist
4. Willpower
5. Overwhelming Surge
6. Scathing Mage
7. Spell Power Cure
8. Elemental Succession

Likewise, we also have quite a few options themed around sustain (magicka regen, cost reduction or both):

1. Willow's Path
2. Seducer
3. Magnus
4. Shroud of the Lich
5. Alteration Mastery
6. Worm Cult
7. Desert rose

...and we previously even had Arch-mage that got nerfed and Warlock that did not get updated.

You can mix match the spell damage sets with the sustain sets and tweak your enchants to get the balance that you desire.

Now what are the pet build relevant options? And by that I don't just mean sets that have something specific to do with pets, but also sets where their main theme is boosting max magicka.

The only set that can be described as a sorc-relevant pet set is Necropotence and that has not even been updated past v12. The only v16 pet set is the Hunt set from vMA and that is for stamina builds. There is a v16 option for stamina pet builds but not one for magicka builds, how ridiculous is that?

Where can I find sets with a strong Max Magicka presence in the 2-4 pieces bonuses... and 5-piece boons like these:

• (Tharn's Heirloom) Increase your max magicka by 8% while wearing 5 pieces (or more) of light armor.
• (Enraged Summons) Your pets take 30% less damage and deal 20% more damage when their health drops below 50%.
• (Diseased Companion) When a summoned pet dies they infect their killer and apply Major Defile and 2k Disease damage every second for 8 seconds.
• (Loyal Defender) Your pets' health is increased by 20% and they take 50% less damage from critical hits and Bosses.
• (Essence of the Fallen Soul) When one of your summoned pets kills an enemy with a killing blow, it saps their essence and returns to you 8k HP, 4k Stam, 4k mag.
• (Rushed Incantation) Reduce the time it takes to summon a pet by 35% but their HP is decreased by 20% as a result.

Or something along those lines, you know? Having more options is always a good thing and never a bad thing. Keeps players interested in farming sets, testing builds...playing and sticking with the game.

olsborg wrote: »

Ive also been informed that pets dont get the battlespirit defence (50% less dmg from players) in cyrodiil. Also, the pets should have more hp and a healthar in the UI that you can see, hardward is also not refreshable on them like on yourself or other players.

The fact that you can't refresh the Ward until it's gone is the biggest reason it's so hard to keep them alive.

@ZOS, why don't you fix this?

Derra wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds vaible.

I didn't realize that they didn't scale. Why would they not??! If that is the case, then this should certainly be on the list.

They scale with only magica - which is part of the problem why pets are such a niche spec. You have to fully commit to gearing for only magica to make them vaible. They don´t work well with "normal" gearsetups.

Just to throw my lot into this subject....

I don't think it's a bad thing that your "normal" setup doesn't work well with a pet build. Having pet damage scale with spell damage would just kill variance, just strap on your Kagrenac set and away you go. Make one gear set up legendary and use it for all scenarios, quite dull.

Having to fully commit into a build is not bad thing. A bad thing is not having any realistic option to commit to.

For example, there is a ridiculous number of available v16 sets, where boosting spell damage is their main theme:

1. Kagrenac
2. Julianos
3. Clever Alchemist
4. Willpower
5. Overwhelming Surge
6. Scathing Mage
7. Spell Power Cure
8. Elemental Succession

Likewise, we also have quite a few options themed around sustain (magicka regen, cost reduction or both):

1. Willow's Path
2. Seducer
3. Magnus
4. Shroud of the Lich
5. Alteration Mastery
6. Worm Cult
7. Desert rose

...and we previously even had Arch-mage that got nerfed and Warlock that did not get updated.

You can mix match the spell damage sets with the sustain sets and tweak your enchants to get the balance that you desire.

Now what are the pet build relevant options? And by that I don't just mean sets that have something specific to do with pets, but also sets where their main theme is boosting max magicka.

The only set that can be described as a sorc-relevant pet set is Necropotence and that has not even been updated past v12. The only v16 pet set is the Hunt set from vMA and that is for stamina builds. There is a v16 option for stamina pet builds but not one for magicka builds, how ridiculous is that?

Where can I find sets with a strong Max Magicka presence in the 2-4 pieces bonuses... and 5-piece boons like these:

• (Tharn's Heirloom) Increase your max magicka by 8% while wearing 5 pieces (or more) of light armor.
• (Enraged Summons) Your pets take 30% less damage and deal 20% more damage when their health drops below 50%.
• (Diseased Companion) When a summoned pet dies they infect their killer and apply Major Defile and 2k Disease damage every second for 8 seconds.
• (Loyal Defender) Your pets' health is increased by 20% and they take 50% less damage from critical hits and Bosses.
• (Essence of the Fallen Soul) When one of your summoned pets kills an enemy with a killing blow, it saps their essence and returns to you 8k HP, 4k Stam, 4k mag.
• (Rushed Incantation) Reduce the time it takes to summon a pet by 35% but their HP is decreased by 20% as a result.

Or something along those lines, you know? Having more options is always a good thing and never a bad thing. Keeps players interested in farming sets, testing builds...playing and sticking with the game.

Still fails to make those skills vaible if you only want to use one of them. Pet sets should buff other aspects of them (speed, healthpool, duration of special abilities). The scaling should match that of other skills to allow for a wider variety of builds and for pets to be used on normal builds.

And all those pet sets will be completely useless and gimmicky compared to traditional damage or sustain sets (IF the pets' abilities start scaling off spell damage too). Like the Kagrenac set was, before the spell dmg buff, just a gimmicky set for faster rezes but with no real application or value in PvP or PvE.

Why would you wear a set that increases the pet's speed or hp if you can wear Kagrenac which will not only give you a pet damage buff, but buff any other aspect of your build too like healing (spell dmg) and sustain (regen).

And the way the skills are designed at the moment, I don't think you can even get what you describe as "normal" build with a pet. Not even if pets scaled off spell damage.

Lemme guess, you want to use the clannfear for group healing and a bit of damage, right? Without fully committing to a pet build? Well your primary problem is not pets not scaling with spell dmg.

Your primary problem is that unless you have it on both bars, the pet will desummon every time you switch. Or die at some point. And then you'll have to start, mid-combat, a 1.5" interruptible channel to bring the pet back up before you can even start healing. These are your main problems, not the scaling.

If you're gonna get the best out of the clannfear, you'll still have to have it on both bars. And you'll more than likely have to use Empowering Ward (instead of Hardened) to keep it alive longer and buff it. Because the pets damage and survivability is balanced around being permanently warded. So now you've sacrificed two slots and a morph for that silly pet and you find yourself drifting far from a "normal" sorc build.

TL;DR;
My point is that what you want, hybrid pets builds, are too far away and many changes would have to happen to skills to make them possible. Those changes in my opinion have little to do with scaling and more to do with skill design. Imo ZOS need to first focus on making full pet builds viable and moderately attractive (like they did with stam builds) before they even start looking at hybrid builds (which are for example dead), if they want to look at them at all that is.

I still think scaling pets off spell damage is the wrong choice. I would prefer if they added and updated sets that made full pet builds viable. If you slot pets in a "hybrid" it shouldn't do as much damage as a pet build that focuses on really high max magicka. That's my humble opinion.

Another thought

In case that ZOS will still move on as announced, and implement both changes
(the cast time AND scaling stat changes, see post above)

Against the time we get to hear such thoughts from ZOS I get the dreaded feeling that they have it on the drawing board, and it is already kind of inevitable, and they are in the process of selling their decision, the change intended to us with some pocket money to negotiate for minor tweaks....


so... in case both nerfs to pet Sorcs are inevitable:
Why not get rid of the current two special abilities of the pets....

and exchange those special abilities by an instant casting of the Ward, that also refreshes the shields on the pets and yourself.
The pets damage still scaling from only Magicka, but with a substantial buff.

In this way pet builds can keep their pets better alive and play with a high Magicka build.
(pushing the normal Ward ability button will then keep the cast time as ZOS forces upon us)

EDIT:
could also be that the special ability heal of Twilight stays, and only Clanfear gets the instant Ward
Then you have the sustain and the heal, but pay the price by needing both pets and having a lot of ability slots filled and doing yourself little damage.
PVP whining about the too strong shields should be adressed in this way, because the counter is killing the pets first.

Tbh, if they add cast time to say, Conjured Ward, they should add cast time to Breath of Life, Vigor, Rally....I could go on, you get the picture tho.

Ryuho wrote: »

If they add cast time to shields (all kind of shields) just omfg.. STUPIEST IDEA EVER! Increase dmg to shields from CPs was great move from ZOS side, soon we will get CP cap increase, so we would be able to put even more points there and imo it's enough, seriously no need to change shields.. Overall dmg increase from CPs + dmg to shields from CPs + dotable shields + shieldbreaker (for stamina users) what else u need to counter shields??

You say: "STUPIEST IDEA EVER"

I guess the changes thought out will most probably have a very high impact on Damage Shields in general and for the Conjured Ward of Sorcs in particular, even more so if you run pets.

That's why I highlight the issue NOW.
To prevent being caught dumbfounded and discussing a fait-accompli when it has been developed into detail and part of the next PTS or so.
We better start now explaining how bad this idea could be with a whooping 1.5 seconds interruptable casting time.

If you care to know how, in what tone, Eric Wrobel mentions this thought on the last ESO live, listen for yourself:

Future Damage Shields starts at 47.00 minutes and ends at 51.00. At around 50.00 minutes he mentions a cast time of 1.5 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

It would seem by the last couple major patches that you (ZOS) want Pet Sorcs to be a thing; this DLC certainly helps. I personally do not mind playing around with different Pet Sorc build options, even tho I do not see them being truly end-game, min-max viable. None the less, two some suggestions, if I may, to help make Pet Sorcs more viable:

1. You MUST make pets stealth while you are stealthed in PvP. This of course does not apply to the Storm Atro, but the Twilight and Clanfear need to stealth when you go into stealth.

I thought they already stealthed when you did.

3. Unlike #1, this is more of a bone to throw than a necessity... It might help encourage Pet Sorc builds if you either scale the Necropotence set to 16 or create a new set with a similar 5 piece bonus. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would absolutely try a Pet build (have a couple interesting theory builds in mind) if I could use a v16 Necropotence set.

From my own testing even unscaled Necropotence gives the same or more magicka than other sets even at V16.

4. Contributed by @Derra

Derra wrote: »

Well or they could scale pets like other skills in the game - with magica and spelldmg. That would help especially with making mixed builds viable.

That would be awesome.

Patch 2.3.3 has some good news for pet builds

Sorcerer
Daedric Summoning
Conjured Ward: Fixed an issue with this ability and its morphs where the damage shield created for your pets was not updating its value when the ability was re-cast.

dsalter wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Patch 2.3.3 has some good news for pet builds

Sorcerer
Daedric Summoning
Conjured Ward: Fixed an issue with this ability and its morphs where the damage shield created for your pets was not updating its value when the ability was re-cast.

this is positive tho tbh sounds like they just forgot to apply the old bug that happened once onto the pets as well and only now that pets are becoming useful did it crop up :P

Whatever the precise reasons... is all water under the bridge.... survivability pets is improved
Next hurdle for pet builds to take is the intended cast time on Ward in the near future.

I hope that ZOS will change the special ability of the Clanfear into an instant Ward.

A Sorc walking around with one or more pets in PVP just cannot be OP.
So no reason to nerf Ward with a cast time for a pet Sorc.