Stand and Fight

Junkogen · February 2016

I hear this argument a lot from those annoyed by those that play a little stealthier. I don't get it, though. The argument is essentially saying that the the person want NBs and Sorcs to have to stand and fight because it better suits their playstyle. Why is that being supported by ZOS? Why should glass cannons be forced to go toe to toe with tankier classes and builds? I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind this argument beyond it just being about pure selfishness. Can someone please explain how forcing every class and build to "stand and fight" is good for the game? How is homogenization of fighting and playstyles good for the long-term life of the game? It just seems kind of boring.

Speely · February 2016

I don't see the logic either. People should build to fight how they want to fight. Having a range of approaches makes PvP dynamic and interesting.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Logic does not work on Sorcs, or Dev team. A mod will come in here and Q_Q about closing thread we already got one starting about NB changes. Whatever, point is a playstyle is getting nerfed down. They want all Stamblades to WB spam. We had a playstyle that did not need it and took skill to play. Devs was like NOPE.

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

lolo_01b16_ESO · February 2016

Play a templar for some time in pvp and you'll wish that all classes would have similar mobility.
You don't need to remove streak or shadow image, but it would be nice to have at least a magicka based speed buff (like all other classes have) and a gap closer that doesn't bug out half of the time when you're chasing a sorc / nb that tries to escape. Also I wouldn't consider Templars as tankier than sorcs without blinding flashes and crippeled blazing shield.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Really?

I see Bow users using the same attack.
I See most Stam builds using WB.
I See Ward stacking as the normal.

NB was one of the few classes that had a Stam option for melee other than WB, and it got destoryed in the worse way.

Also, Templars are dead. ZOS does not have the skill to balance even our most weakest skills in the game. How can you balance. Stand in our house? When movement plays a key part of this action base game. LMAO

Templar class design at its core counters one of the few good things this game has. Might as well delete the class.

Speely · February 2016

Temps aren't dead. Players who believe in them are.

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Really?

I see Bow users using the same attack.
I See most Stam builds using WB.
I See Ward stacking as the normal.

NB was one of the few classes that had a Stam option for melee other than WB, and it got destoryed in the worse way.

Also, Templars are dead. ZOS does not have the skill to balance even our most weakest skills in the game. How can you balance. Stand in our house? When movement plays a key part of this action base game. LMAO

Templar class design at its core counters one of the few good things this game has. Might as well delete the class.

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Honestly didn't read. I said zos is TRYING. Not what they are actually achieving.

Volkodav · February 2016

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Problem is that what they are doing is taking away the "uniqueness" of the classes.They are nerfing the tar out of certain classe's skills to even the entire game out.And so,there wont be anymore uniqueness.
Besides,what happened to "play as you want"?

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Problem is that what they are doing is taking away the "uniqueness" of the classes.They are nerfing the tar out of certain classe's skills to even the entire game out.And so,there wont be anymore uniqueness.
Besides,what happened to "play as you want"?

I agree they have an odd goal of "balancing classes" and "making all classes special in specific situations" or as most people say "not balanced"

Volkodav · February 2016

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Problem is that what they are doing is taking away the "uniqueness" of the classes.They are nerfing the tar out of certain classe's skills to even the entire game out.And so,there wont be anymore uniqueness.
Besides,what happened to "play as you want"?

I agree they have an odd goal of "balancing classes" and "making all classes special in specific situations" or as most people say "not balanced"

Right.I just wish they had left it all alone,and those who dont like certain s kills found their own ways to counter them instead of all these damn nerfs. XD

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Honestly didn't read. I said zos is TRYING. Not what they are actually achieving.

I know you said trying. I am just amazed that you see this as trying lol.

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Honestly didn't read. I said zos is TRYING. Not what they are actually achieving.

I know you said trying. I am just amazed that you see this as trying lol.

If you honestly and truly believe that the developers have a deep rooted hate for one of the classes that they created then there is no hope for you.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Honestly didn't read. I said zos is TRYING. Not what they are actually achieving.

I know you said trying. I am just amazed that you see this as trying lol.

If you honestly and truly believe that the developers have a deep rooted hate for one of the classes that they created then there is no hope for you.

I don't think hate a class. Why would they?

I think they lack common sense.

I think they are limited on time. They are trying to push out content to milk money, and don't spend the time and love that is needed on classes.

I think they are not skilled enough RIGHT NOW, to have such a heavy burden that is a MMO, I am sure they will get better, but the pacing and the fact we had some weak and buggy skills for how many years now? No excuse.

I think the company can't balance PVP and PVE worth a darn. The very Templar class design sounds fun in pve. (i guess.) but in PVP when the combat is faster, and movement is key part of games. The "House Design" takes the strenght of the game and poops on it.

So no I don't think they hate a class. I just think they are not skilled enough, don't have the man power, or don't have the time to pump out amazing content, and go over and rebalance many of the skills that need it. Their vision of a class only is fun in one part of the game.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

It's because "stealthers" can basically reset the battle for them selves having their resources nearly full at any time they want while the other player is stuck at their fatigue state leaving alot of battles one sided for any one non-NB and most of the time loosing.

And don't say that's how the NB class was designed I'm pretty sure ZOS never had the intent to make NBs the divine class that allows them to reset the battle for them at any moment they want by literally pushing 1 button.

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's because "stealthers" can basically reset the battle for them selves having their resources nearly full at any time they want while the other player is stuck at their fatigue state leaving alot of battles one sided for any one non-NB and most of the time loosing.

And don't say that's how the NB class was designed I'm pretty sure ZOS never had the intent to make NBs the divine class that allows them to reset the battle for them at any moment they want by literally pushing 1 button.

Let me look at my skills for defense....Hmmm..Leeching strikes? LOL ummm..Sorry NB don't have god wards, and StamNB can cloak 3 or 4ish time. It took skill to do as you had to manage your resource.

NB are squishy, It might make you upset they get away and can reset a fight, but it makes me upset that walking DPS gods of damage Sorcs can do what they do. It makes me upset that Bows only have 1 good skill and it is like spamming wb.

So yes, the class design shows that THAT is what the class is balance around. Starting fights, and getting away.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's because "stealthers" can basically reset the battle for them selves having their resources nearly full at any time they want while the other player is stuck at their fatigue state leaving alot of battles one sided for any one non-NB and most of the time loosing.

And don't say that's how the NB class was designed I'm pretty sure ZOS never had the intent to make NBs the divine class that allows them to reset the battle for them at any moment they want by literally pushing 1 button.

Let me look at my skills for defense....Hmmm..Leeching strikes? LOL ummm..Sorry NB don't have god wards, and StamNB can cloak 3 or 4ish time. It took skill to do as you had to manage your resource.

NB are squishy, It might make you upset they get away and can reset a fight, but it makes me upset that walking DPS gods of damage Sorcs can do what they do. It makes me upset that Bows only have 1 good skill and it is like spamming wb.

So yes, the class design shows that THAT is what the class is balance around. Starting fights, and getting away.

Yes the NBs were designed for hit and run tactics that's what ZOS designed them for but you missed my point it was players who abused this mechanic and learned that they could reset the battle for them to nearly perfect conditions thus making them the divine class to play.

ZOS idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, run, end

Players idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, reset, attack, cloak, reset, attack,cloak, reset. attack, spam killer blade 10X, end

Volkodav · February 2016

I bet the PvPers are the ones who are on about NBs being a "divine class". They arent.They are no different than other classes,except that their skills are different and work well with eachother. I have played all the classes,and the two that work best are the DK and the NB.
I DO think that the Templars arent a good play.They have nothing in the skills department that is good for them,and that is rather unfair.The Sorc does have skills that easily keep them going.Pets who fight,etc.Including skills to summon demons to fight for them.Two ways to summon demons while other classes dont have that.
NB's dont need those famous nerve hitters,called Shadow skills. They have many other skills that are very strong.So why they are called "squishy",I havent a clue.
I find Sorcerers and Templars quite squishy.
People,if you want to play a class that seems to work above others,why not just play that class instead of getting all in an uproar because it is better than the class you use.Or learn to counter those great skills.
(and dont tell me there arent ways to do just that.)

rager82b14_ESO · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's because "stealthers" can basically reset the battle for them selves having their resources nearly full at any time they want while the other player is stuck at their fatigue state leaving alot of battles one sided for any one non-NB and most of the time loosing.

And don't say that's how the NB class was designed I'm pretty sure ZOS never had the intent to make NBs the divine class that allows them to reset the battle for them at any moment they want by literally pushing 1 button.

Let me look at my skills for defense....Hmmm..Leeching strikes? LOL ummm..Sorry NB don't have god wards, and StamNB can cloak 3 or 4ish time. It took skill to do as you had to manage your resource.

NB are squishy, It might make you upset they get away and can reset a fight, but it makes me upset that walking DPS gods of damage Sorcs can do what they do. It makes me upset that Bows only have 1 good skill and it is like spamming wb.

So yes, the class design shows that THAT is what the class is balance around. Starting fights, and getting away.

Yes the NBs were designed for hit and run tactics that's what ZOS designed them for but you missed my point it was players who abused this mechanic and learned that they could reset the battle for them to nearly perfect conditions thus making them the divine class to play.

ZOS idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, run, end

Players idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, reset, attack, cloak, reset, attack,cloak, reset. attack, spam killer blade 10X, end

That is a option they have. Each cloak a Stam NB use for attack is one less cloak they have to get away. With a very limited magic pool. Also, the cloak design itself and stealth system supports that play style. I see nothing wrong with it. That is how they dish out damage. SA+Cloak was a combo that NB Stam had that was not the typical WB spam. Now, because of the changes. A playstyle gets hinder and we are back at being clones of stam using WB.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's because "stealthers" can basically reset the battle for them selves having their resources nearly full at any time they want while the other player is stuck at their fatigue state leaving alot of battles one sided for any one non-NB and most of the time loosing.

And don't say that's how the NB class was designed I'm pretty sure ZOS never had the intent to make NBs the divine class that allows them to reset the battle for them at any moment they want by literally pushing 1 button.

Let me look at my skills for defense....Hmmm..Leeching strikes? LOL ummm..Sorry NB don't have god wards, and StamNB can cloak 3 or 4ish time. It took skill to do as you had to manage your resource.

NB are squishy, It might make you upset they get away and can reset a fight, but it makes me upset that walking DPS gods of damage Sorcs can do what they do. It makes me upset that Bows only have 1 good skill and it is like spamming wb.

So yes, the class design shows that THAT is what the class is balance around. Starting fights, and getting away.

Yes the NBs were designed for hit and run tactics that's what ZOS designed them for but you missed my point it was players who abused this mechanic and learned that they could reset the battle for them to nearly perfect conditions thus making them the divine class to play.

ZOS idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, run, end

Players idea for NBs: Stealth, attack, cloak, reset, attack, cloak, reset, attack,cloak, reset. attack, spam killer blade 10X, end

That is a option they have. Each cloak a Stam NB use for attack is one less cloak they have to get away. With a very limited magic pool. Also, the cloak design itself and stealth system supports that play style. I see nothing wrong with it. That is how they dish out damage. SA+Cloak was a combo that NB Stam had that was not the typical WB spam. Now, because of the changes. A playstyle gets hinder and we are back at being clones of stam using WB.

The it really isn't stamina fault for the nerf is it or the soon to be even more WB clone builds and yet U9 is making ESO again. Elder Staves Online.

So kinda tells who fault it is for the imbalance isn't it *cough cough* magicka users * cough cough*

Rabbyrow1234 · February 2016

I watched a video where the streamer was talking smack and their opponent left, what he described, as the designated duel area. This was due to him laying down an atronach and his opponent pulled back from it. Then he whined for a minute solid until the guy came back and mauled him.
Naturally the straamer claimed it "didn't count"
Play how you want to play!

tinythinker · February 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Problem is that what they are doing is taking away the "uniqueness" of the classes.They are nerfing the tar out of certain classe's skills to even the entire game out.And so,there wont be anymore uniqueness.
Besides,what happened to "play as you want"?

From what I heard last Friday, they are taking "play as you want" to mean that each class should have class skills that make them more or less equally good at Tank, Damage Dealer, and Healer. But on the other hand, because they don't want to homogenize the classes, DK's get to do fire stuff, Sorcs get to do storm stuff, NBs get to pretend they can do stealth stuff, and Templars get to be slow.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

To be a successful PvP game, classes need to be able to counter other classes.

Junkogen · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

ZOS is specifically trying to make classes have their own uniqueness to them. This is the whole idea behind wrobels "come into my house" statement for templars staying in the fight regards to mobility. I swear some people would be happy if they changed pvp in this game to light attacks only. Is that balanced enough?

Problem is that what they are doing is taking away the "uniqueness" of the classes.They are nerfing the tar out of certain classe's skills to even the entire game out.And so,there wont be anymore uniqueness.
Besides,what happened to "play as you want"?

From what I heard last Friday, they are taking "play as you want" to mean that each class should have class skills that make them more or less equally good at Tank, Damage Dealer, and Healer. But on the other hand, because they don't want to homogenize the classes, DK's get to do fire stuff, Sorcs get to do storm stuff, NBs get to pretend they can do stealth stuff, and Templars get to be slow.

You hit the nail on the head right there. They built the NB class around cloaking and stealth and then essentially took away cloak and stealth. If they want to remove the stealthy playstyle from the game, then they have to make the passives independent of it. They may claim they don't want to homogenize the combat, but that's exactly what they do. Anytime something unique pops up they eliminate it. They don't just nerf it, they exterminate it.

Instead of nerfing popular playstyles maybe they should improve the other ones. I guess it's easier to nerf than to use some creativity to enhance other playstyles. Maybe they should just remove all live action combat and make it turn based.

CamBam370 · February 2016

Sorcs are the tankiest class currently , and nightblades can crap on you in close range , right now dk´s are not that tanky and templars are only tanky because they have heals .

DanielMaxwell · February 2016

Junkogen wrote: »

I hear this argument a lot from those annoyed by those that play a little stealthier. I don't get it, though. The argument is essentially saying that the the person want NBs and Sorcs to have to stand and fight because it better suits their playstyle. Why is that being supported by ZOS? Why should glass cannons be forced to go toe to toe with tankier classes and builds? I guess I don't understand the reasoning behind this argument beyond it just being about pure selfishness. Can someone please explain how forcing every class and build to "stand and fight" is good for the game? How is homogenization of fighting and playstyles good for the long-term life of the game? It just seems kind of boring.

Why ZOS is doing it is simple they would rather hear you cry about losing mobility then buff the damage output of the tankier builds and listen to the crying from that (which would be even greater).

Glass canons should get blown up when out of stealth or in melee range , kiting should be a option but it should require timing , skill and use of healing to pull off.

Tankier builds should be able to put out decent damage in a short time(good burst) with limited tools to close gaps and remove stealth , that also require skill and good timing to use effectively .They also should be relying on an equal amount of healing as the Glass canon builds .

getting the balance reasonably close between those two is not easy.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2016

what happened to surprise attack?

Bossdonut · February 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

what happened to surprise attack?

Everyone knows it's coming.

khele23eb17_ESO · February 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

what happened to surprise attack?

Surprise Attack looses a lot of oomph if you cant use it out of Cloak.