ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; even though one of your moron guildmates will post about about this one time at daoc thing despite the fact they're playing a game that is wanting to copy daoc and you and said moron guildmates post about going to CU which is aiming to be the new DAOC...but really daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

The current con to stacking is that another guild now has an amazing target for a hard AOE bomb. These are not usually flat out tanked, you almost always melt if the other group gets a full hit in on you. To survive you have to kite. Throw out defensive ultis, try to gain distance and breathing room to set up your own bomb.

I'll put it out straight: if you stack and late me hit you I will kill you. 99/100 times.

Doesn't mean it's not a stupid meta but it forces awareness, self sustain, defensive maneuvering and counter hitting.

And again, yes, stacking is a bad mechanic that needed downsides. I maintain that replacing this with "he who hits first wins" is equally lazy and much worse.

Further. It reduces the ability of an organized group to take on large zergs. Because beating a Zerg takes maneuvering, sustain AND damage. Teamwork to keep formation so you're not surrounded, picked off and slaughtered. They kept the damage but removed mobility and sustain. This. Favors. Larger. Groups. Every time.

He who hits first doesn't always win...But it should get a good chance at taking a large group out.

and while they removed mobility and sustain they added the ability to kill large portions of that zerg very quickly...

So you'll have to take that Zerg of yours and find a new tactic.

Yyou talk about it as if you automatically win in a smaller group. let us wait and see how it plays out because the last time people like yourself were screaming from the mountain top that proxy det was going to save your life because you had a zerg busting tool... well the zergs all got the proxy too.

Now lets extrapolate this out to the meta that is INC. Hypothetical you are 12v24: almost everyone will be rolling magicka so that means the big group will have 24 proxys to your 12 and if the fighting happens to go down in a choke or it becomes close quartered the big group will still be hitting for 100% -80% proxy dmg and have 12 more of them than the smaller group. Also, they will have roughly 2x as many VD sets.

I do not see the next patch making this better necessarily for the big groups in that regard, its just going to be *** gameplay. There is a reason ZOS took TTK DOWN from 1.6 to IC because there was so much QQ about people dying too fast. We are going back to the same thing and we already have the dmg mitigation via battlespirit.

I just hope after a short time of this *** gameplay that people realize it and we can make a change because this will not be good and they already did the lazy fix and slapped huge dmg mitigation via battle spirit on rather than addressing real problems so I am interested to see what they do next because this is not the fix the game needs.

Back to the original point 1.9 is going to be a nuclear arms race, the bigger groups have more firepower and will be achieving max dmg proxys and all of that a good bit of the time. I do not see this patch being fun for many people, even the people that ignorantly are cheering this on in the background.

Xsorus wrote: »

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; even though one of your moron guildmates will post about about this one time at daoc thing despite the fact they're playing a game that is wanting to copy daoc and you and said moron guildmates post about going to CU which is aiming to be the new DAOC...but really daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

The current con to stacking is that another guild now has an amazing target for a hard AOE bomb. These are not usually flat out tanked, you almost always melt if the other group gets a full hit in on you. To survive you have to kite. Throw out defensive ultis, try to gain distance and breathing room to set up your own bomb.

I'll put it out straight: if you stack and late me hit you I will kill you. 99/100 times.

Doesn't mean it's not a stupid meta but it forces awareness, self sustain, defensive maneuvering and counter hitting.

And again, yes, stacking is a bad mechanic that needed downsides. I maintain that replacing this with "he who hits first wins" is equally lazy and much worse.

Further. It reduces the ability of an organized group to take on large zergs. Because beating a Zerg takes maneuvering, sustain AND damage. Teamwork to keep formation so you're not surrounded, picked off and slaughtered. They kept the damage but removed mobility and sustain. This. Favors. Larger. Groups. Every time.

He who hits first doesn't always win...But it should get a good chance at taking a large group out.

and while they removed mobility and sustain they added the ability to kill large portions of that zerg very quickly...

So you'll have to take that Zerg of yours and find a new tactic.

Yyou talk about it as if you automatically win in a smaller group. let us wait and see how it plays out because the last time people like yourself were screaming from the mountain top that proxy det was going to save your life because you had a zerg busting tool... well the zergs all got the proxy too.

Now lets extrapolate this out to the meta that is INC. Hypothetical you are 12v24: almost everyone will be rolling magicka so that means the big group will have 24 proxys to your 12 and if the fighting happens to go down in a choke or it becomes close quartered the big group will still be hitting for 100% -80% proxy dmg and have 12 more of them than the smaller group. Also, they will have roughly 2x as many VD sets.

I do not see the next patch making this better necessarily for the big groups in that regard, its just going to be *** gameplay. There is a reason ZOS took TTK DOWN from 1.6 to IC because there was so much QQ about people dying too fast. We are going back to the same thing and we already have the dmg mitigation via battlespirit.

I just hope after a short time of this *** gameplay that people realize it and we can make a change because this will not be good and they already did the lazy fix and slapped huge dmg mitigation via battle spirit on rather than addressing real problems so I am interested to see what they do next because this is not the fix the game needs.

Back to the original point 1.9 is going to be a nuclear arms race, the bigger groups have more firepower and will be achieving max dmg proxys and all of that a good bit of the time. I do not see this patch being fun for many people, even the people that ignorantly are cheering this on in the background.

1. I wouldn't run 12.
2. I wouldn't expect 12 people to go toe to toe with 24 people of equal skill and survive without getting the drop on them at first. This is generally how its always worked in games.
3. You're acting like 24 people are not more powerful then 12 people right now? They have more damage currently... They have more heals/support/buffs..they have more free mitigation....At least with this change if your 24 man is in a Choke point that 12 man can sneak up and blow them up if they're stacked....

Satiar wrote: »

Funny thing is I can already alpha strike from stealth now on bigger groups, we don't need a patch for this. People who don't do it lack either skill, organization, or the will to acquire them. Get 12 people. Arm prox det. Bomb a raid from stealth with 11 meteors and 1 negate.

Enjoy your AP.

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

It´s exactly the point i think. With every time you bunch up together to gain the immense benefits of defensive skills should come the thought if that´s a risk worth taking.
That´s the kind of decisionmaking pvp is in desperate need of.

Do the benefits outweight the risks. You will have to think and make on the fly decisions in contrast to what´s presented with the current patch where it´s 100% logical to stack all the time because you get extra defense every time while also being able to condense all offensive power into one position.

Your argument does not make sense to me in the slightest because what you proclaim as bad design is exactly what i think is good design. Risk and reward, outsmarting outmaneuvering being relevant for every player in the grp not only the leader.

There is no risk reward ratio when your mitigation options are holding up a sheet of paper in front of a gun.

There *was* a risk reward ratio in the old meta. Not a particularly good one but it was there. Good guilds played off those numbers. They are removing this in favor of "whoever hits first wins" because you can't effectively tank, can't effectively kite, and incoming damage is gigantic compared to available mitigation. The old meta sucks, most of us barely hang onto this game as is. The new meta is a dumbed down version of the current meta.

Yay

It´s quite funny because the only time your statement is true is when you view stacking your grp as an absolute must.

I don´t know what to say anymore because to not stack does not even occur as a train of thought for you guys. If there are no 24 bunched up ppl to hit there is no who hit´s first
But if you prefer the charging at a machinegun with a knife approach that´s up to you.

I don't see alternatives to stacking because they're not giving me any. The game still forces you into small spaces because of how heals work, how support skills work, how taking objectives works. That's why I'm repeating that this is a stupid bandaid fix while the actual mechanics that need to change fester.

Satiar wrote: »

What I want:

1. Dynamic ulti. Give me incentive to run smaller than you, denial of ultimate to the larger group is a powerful thing.
2. Remove prox det. It's not a Zerg buster. All zergs and groups and guilds do it
3. Remove the AOE cap. Punish hard stacking, reward high mobility.
4. Keep purge to only a few targets. Make debuffs count for something. Don't favor the large group with universal 1-hit purging.

So many other things too. But this would be so so so so much better than just dropping TTK into the basement and further dumbing down the game.

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

What I want:

1. Dynamic ulti. Give me incentive to run smaller than you, denial of ultimate to the larger group is a powerful thing.
2. Remove prox det. It's not a Zerg buster. All zergs and groups and guilds do it
3. Remove the AOE cap. Punish hard stacking, reward high mobility.
4. Keep purge to only a few targets. Make debuffs count for something. Don't favor the large group with universal 1-hit purging.

So many other things too. But this would be so so so so much better than just dropping TTK into the basement and further dumbing down the game.

1. not sure how I feel about this..This could be good (cause you now hit more then 6 targets) but it could also lead to some crazy *** going down
2. Its a zerg buster after the patch now that's for sure...you know this.
3. You want stacking..you just wanting the whole mobile stacking...
4. This is going in anyway..I'm only not happy that they just reduced the number..though they did increase the cost so maybe it'll balance out.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Any fix that involves an item set is incredibly short sighted, not a single problem in this game has been solved with the introduction a specific item set.

When reflective scales was OP, did they introduce an item set to fix the problem?
No, the problem was solved by changing the skill.

When players could perma block did they introduce an item set to fix the problem?
No, the problem was solved by changing mechanics.

When players could streak constantly to always escape fights did they introduce an item set to fix the problem?
No, the problem was solved by changing the skill.

When players could perma roll did they introduce an item set to fix the problem?
No, the problem was solved by changing mechanics.

But when sorcs stack shields to mitigate insane amounts of (mainly magicka) dmg.
What do they do to fix it? They introduce a medium armor item set which clearly hasnt solved the problem.

When NBs perma cloak/purge to avoid most of the incoming dmg do they introduce an item set to fix the problem? No, the problem was addressed by changing cloak and the counter skill, mage light.

And when people ball up because only 6 ppl will take full dmg and the rest take 50% or even 25% dmg.
What do they do to fix it? They introduce a magicka specific item set...
Even if this temporarily fixes the problem it will push the majority to magicka build in the process.

Im sorry but its not hard to detect the pattern here, fixing problems with item sets is NOT working.
If @Wrobel wants to fix the issues he has to change the mechanics that cause these problems.

Satiar wrote: »

What I want:

1. Dynamic ulti. Give me incentive to run smaller than you, denial of ultimate to the larger group is a powerful thing.
2. Remove prox det. It's not a Zerg buster. All zergs and groups and guilds do it
3. Remove the AOE cap. Punish hard stacking, reward high mobility.
4. Keep purge to only a few targets. Make debuffs count for something. Don't favor the large group with universal 1-hit purging.

So many other things too. But this would be so so so so much better than just dropping TTK into the basement and further dumbing down the game.

Zheg wrote: »

Most of the asinine comments I'm seeing are coming from people that likely play in off hours with low pop or against terribad players (which also holds true for wrobel's comments). I have one of the tankiest builds in pvp at the moment and there are keep fights where even I struggle to poke my head in the breach to scout. Anyone that's a serious pvper is rolling their eyes at xsorus' comments (which is par for the course). The next time people like xsorus can take a small man into chalman when there are 65 pact militia folks inside the inner, and then 'spread out', I'll maybe start to take them seriously. Till then, you're pure entertainment for those of us that actually know what the eff we're talking about.

Sureshawt wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Barrier should never ever be returned to anything above 12 people. It should have never been there to begin with. Any support skill hitting 20+ people is absolute insanity.

This from someone that supports removing AoE caps. Interesting......

hammayolettuce wrote: »

The set is nice just like some of the other new sets but you are sacrificing a decent amount to run it in hopes that you are the one getting the KB. It's probably a better set for NBs and Sorcs than any other.

It's still too early to say how well it's going to preform as nothing has really been tested pvp wise other than 1v1.

Manoekin wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

The set is nice just like some of the other new sets but you are sacrificing a decent amount to run it in hopes that you are the one getting the KB. It's probably a better set for NBs and Sorcs than any other.

It's still too early to say how well it's going to preform as nothing has really been tested pvp wise other than 1v1.

Not true. We did tests on PTS with 2 people bombing 10 through all the block & mitigation they could stack. It didn't matter, with the nex Prox Det scaling on top of Venereal Disease explosions, the group always wiped. To 2 people.

Sounds like a bad group.