anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm glad templars are going away from "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal".

I think you misunderstand. Read the PTS forum on Templars

It's going to Templars can't heal, or DPS or Tank

I know. But what I wrote is the one thing I'm happy about and I have no firm opinion about the rest (so far).
And people should wait before going all nuts : how many of those who criticize have actually tested the new configuration ?
Which is why I voted for the first option.

Wait for what?
We are playing it on PTS for over a week already. The reactions now are from the confirmation that they "ZOS" like how PTS is regarding the class changes so while other changes may come...the majority of what is on PTS is going live.

Maybe you have, but I haven't. I've played PTS, sure, but templates are not exactly the same as "our characters" for real comparison. So no, I haven't had a chance to test it yet. Regardless, one week is too short when it comes to adjusting to many interfering changes.
I remember back when 1.6 went live, how vocal I went (together with many others) that my sorc had been destroyed and gimped forever. Until, after a couple of weeks of adjustment, I realized (together with many others) that my sorc had actually been immensely buffed. So now I'm careful and wait and test and adjust before having a firm opinion. For now I truly have no opinion beside the one I mentioned : out with "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal" (for better or for worse, just out with it).

Respectfully the PTS has copied my actual characters.
No idea why you'd assume we aren't using our actual characters.

Templates are a diff thing but my personal responses on the many topics are based off actual experiences on my characters on this PTS. Up until they broke PTS with the x64 client

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just remove the classes so that people are not stuck with skill lines that suck. Quoting my unoriginal signature created from paraphrasing similar topics since beta....

They should just remove classes altogether. Make it so that passives only apply if a skill line has an ability on the current action bar. A similar setup currently exists for weapon and armor skills since a passive only applies if a corresponding weapon or armor is equipped. Removing classes would allow pvp'ers and pve'ers to have their own build niches without having to shoehorn the current classes into both worlds. Balancing should then be easier since participation rates would tell the developers which skill lines are underpowered. Everyone wins.

I think that's going too far.
What about PvE effects and PvP effects for the same skills. This way changes are specific to circumstance

A suggestion that offerst the perception that ZOS doesn't already do this very obvious thing. At one point, and with some classes it appears they are. Then there's the Templar class.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm glad templars are going away from "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal".

The issue isn't that All Templar must heal because they are the best healers. It that they must heal because they are the worst tanks and that shows in PVP when everyone complains about the awesome power of BOL which is far less useful then Hardened Ward. Ward lets you maintain mobility and DPS while defending your self. It allows you to survive multiple attacks and while dropping huge damage on people, killing them 1 by 1. BOL prolongs death in 1vX as it has to be cast, and spammed, to keep up with incoming damage.

IMO they should not make every class as good at healing as the Templar. They should buff the templars mitigation and THEN MOVE AWAY FROM HUGE GROUP HEALS. Now you have Sorcs with Ward, Streak, CF AND Matriach which heal is comparable to BOL and will out put DPS at a rate that will negate Cleanse Ritual, leaving our "house" more like the future site of our many deaths.

I'm glad that Eric confirmed that all members of his team play all the classes. Means they have good overview of what's going on

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm glad templars are going away from "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal".

I think you misunderstand. Read the PTS forum on Templars

It's going to Templars can't heal, or DPS or Tank

I know. But what I wrote is the one thing I'm happy about and I have no firm opinion about the rest (so far).
And people should wait before going all nuts : how many of those who criticize have actually tested the new configuration ?
Which is why I voted for the first option.

Wait for what?
We are playing it on PTS for over a week already. The reactions now are from the confirmation that they "ZOS" like how PTS is regarding the class changes so while other changes may come...the majority of what is on PTS is going live.

Maybe you have, but I haven't. I've played PTS, sure, but templates are not exactly the same as "our characters" for real comparison. So no, I haven't had a chance to test it yet. Regardless, one week is too short when it comes to adjusting to many interfering changes.
I remember back when 1.6 went live, how vocal I went (together with many others) that my sorc had been destroyed and gimped forever. Until, after a couple of weeks of adjustment, I realized (together with many others) that my sorc had actually been immensely buffed. So now I'm careful and wait and test and adjust before having a firm opinion. For now I truly have no opinion beside the one I mentioned : out with "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal" (for better or for worse, just out with it).

I don't see that they added anything that makes the Templar more 'tanky' in PVP/PVE which tells me we'll be dependent solely on BOL into the foreseeable future. We are are to stand in our "house" and hope to heal through.

The game is balanced more and more on Dungeon DPS via rotations, optimal gear, and party buffs. Leaving those of us who have to do more then DPS, while only concerning ourselves with avoiding red circles, with less tools and mobility to do so.

PVE is easy to balance with the cookie-cutter game mechanics that are Dungeons, especially when you don't self heal, and are dependent on someone else to keep you up. Blame the healer. In PVP the healers the first to be targeted. Not just Healers. That's anyone who is I.D.ed as a Templar for the potential that they might cast BOL, and with nothing in the way of tankiness in the class they are pretty easy targets in the Spambush, fear, burst damage meta that's only getting more and more about burst damage. Other classes have answers. Defensive abilities and don't be there. The Templar stands there and east it and spam BOL.

I don't really recall the out cry for balance in any of the Diablo games. Or in any single or even multiply RPG. Only when you get into a Player vs Player environment does Balance really get called into question.

nine9six wrote: »

I feel like:

Good thing I have one of each class @ VR16. Will be spending more time on my Tank. Is that what they want? Coming right up!

And you don't tank on your Templar? why ever would that be?

i agree templar shouldn't be the only viable healer. but then again that's the only thing templar is/was still good at. hell even a sorc will e a beter healer with more dps and survivabilty with comming patch. and templar should be the one being able to stand their ground? HaHaHa what a joke. even the previous mentions sorcs has the option for mobilty

kaer426 wrote: »

I don't know about that. There are those who invested a lot of time in game and here at the forums trying to communicate with ZOS to not even get a acknowledge for the effort they put in.

Wrobel said he loves ALL the skills, that ZOS plays ALL classes, and that they don't have favorites. He didn't say he read the nearly 30 pages in the Templar thread from PTS, or the 40 page thread we created in November (?) at Gina's request, or the crap ton of previous Templar posts. He could have addressed the Templar community if he cared to communicate with us. He simple didn't.

"I know there's been a lot of feed back from Templars and while we read your post we simply don't have to man power to address the class as we would like and though some of the request are reasonable we can't rework every skill all at once and improvements to the Templar's ability to Tank, Templar Passives, ... are all things we plan review and improve in the near future. Please be patient."

OR MAYBE

"I know the Templar community is calling us out and rightfully so. We need to solidify their identity in PVE AND PVP. They can't just depend on 1 skill. Here is our vision of what the Templar should be ... better tanking and damage mitigation to be able to stand your ground ... better utility from under used and limited skill ... more responsive to play with fixes and changes to animations, etc ... we want them to be hard to kill to make up for the challenge they have with DPS, rather then make everyone simply DPS racing each other to death ... We want the Templar to be able to cast runes/ritual and this to be the place they excel and a place were their party will excel while not promoting zerging ... and well be working in the future towards that end. Of course this vision might change but please bare in mind this is process with many moving parts. You can look forward to such changes over the next few months. You want hope. I'm telling you things are coming. Please be patient and continue give us your feed back."

That would have made most people feel there is hope on the horizon. What he did was simply make a vague statement in hopes of avoiding another elephant in the room for which he has no answer because he didn't bother to prepare one. That makes people feel **** on. Sorc's had a response in their PTS thread on Feb 9. Acknowledgment. There's not been one ZOS post in 30 pages of the Templar PTS thread.

Again PVE I don't think any of this matters. Healers gonna heal and DPS isn't hard to balance out in PVE. Its PVP which @Wrobel and ZOS seem to have no plan or no understanding of.

DK and Stam sorc's KNOW they're very unlikely to get stam attack or an execute. Templar know he wants our heals to be less useful so that we need several skills to in addition to our class to accomplish our healing class status, while everyone else gets buffed.

He wants us to be unique in the worst ways. Slow, stationary, wrapped up in channels, cast times, etc. All the things NO ONE wants. How is that acceptable? How is that good design? How does that sell the Templar class? It doesn't which is why those of us that have played it since beta are moving away from it in disappointment.

Notice how many times he says "I think" or "I guess?" You don't need to do that with the Templars. We've spelled it out. Several times.

Jura23 wrote: »

I'm glad that Eric confirmed that all members of his team play all the classes. Means they have good overview of what's going on

Respectful to you. That does sound good but the thought and mindset he continues to share begs BS!

They may play on ZOS servers but not live servers because when it's apparent that they designed a Templar with an entire tree for healing...but then suggests they are healing too effectively....uhmm what's the point of nerfing the class when it's a concern for PvP not PvE. When has a PvE group complained about having a Templar who can heal effectively ?

Templars by design are healers. NB by design are DPS, Sorcs by design are DPS and DKs by design are tanks.

Yes they are can mix and match but there is no misunderstanding with who excels at what based on class skills and the racial bonuses along with armor sets.

If they play all classes then it has to be with an understanding that they don't play with us.
When ever has a group complained in PvE about Templar heals when they have one? He then gives an example of how an undaunted skill did too much healing...OK so it seems they are only concerned with making things more and more difficult.
Then freaking go back to the base design in closed beta in 2013. Allow CPs to mitigate difficulty cause that's why many were excited about CPs. It's an account wide system that has an option to enhance your effectiveness or just to be left unused.

Perhaps in PvP there are concerns but again since the first nerf on Templar shield in 2014, that was a PvP concern not PvE. If they all play then they should comprehend that it's detrimental to their game to change or apply nerfs due to a PvP situation or a PvE situation or vice versa. The skills just need adjustments in each setting being PvE only or PvP only. You don't penalize everyone cause your design is being used effectively in one instance so you make sweeping changes to both.

That's like adding CP without removing Vr because you messed up when adding VR and don't know how to remove Vr after adding CP so you cap both Vr and CP for over 6 months and move on to something else without fixing the problems you had and the new problems you created ....OH wait. That is what ZOS does.

I prob won't be around to see VR removal at this rate but considering these guys have this solo only stuff and then go live talking about group effects and those are the reasoning for changes....WTH guys....again. Do you actually play the game?

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just remove the classes so that people are not stuck with skill lines that suck. Quoting my unoriginal signature created from paraphrasing similar topics since beta....

They should just remove classes altogether. Make it so that passives only apply if a skill line has an ability on the current action bar. A similar setup currently exists for weapon and armor skills since a passive only applies if a corresponding weapon or armor is equipped. Removing classes would allow pvp'ers and pve'ers to have their own build niches without having to shoehorn the current classes into both worlds. Balancing should then be easier since participation rates would tell the developers which skill lines are underpowered. Everyone wins.

I really wish they would do this. I suspect most of us Templars would abandon our skills for something better, and then they might actually fix the Templar skills. For instance, every day every time, I would pick ambush over Focused Charge. Why? Because the damned thing actually works -and- its not punitive! Focused Charge punishes you for using it, on top of being heavily unreliable - that makes it a terrible skill you DO NOT slot on your bar in pvp. I've spoken of the skills that need a rewrite multiple times, I don't really want to keep saying the same things here. I think Eclipse is one of those skills. We're supposed to be the 'stand your ground' class but every change they make to the game and to the class pushes us away from that. Eclipse is one such class. Eclipse use to be spammable before they brought in cc immunity. At this stage of the game it was actually half decent, even if it was expensive. You had to be intelligent about how you used it, dropping it on that DK so you could lob a fireball in his face and play ping pong with it. You could force Sorcs to fight in your theater, because they couldn't just spam fury and frags on your face, and they were left with other skills. Nightblades couldn't just funnel you to death. At any regard though, they usually got their first shots in, and you had to react and activate the skill. NOW? What the hell do they think Eclipse is good for? Its great when it works, but the amount of effort the skill requires to make useful compared to the ease with which other skills in other classes function is huge. The same holds true of Blazing Spear vs. Cinders. Cinders use to be like a fat combo of Blazing Spear - and- Blinding Flashes. It was absolutely OP. Cinders is a quick click, whereas BS is timed. Cinders is a huge aoe snare that does aoe damage synchronizing well with multiple dk passives.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

I'm glad that Eric confirmed that all members of his team play all the classes. Means they have good overview of what's going on

Respectful to you. That does sound good but the thought and mindset he continues to share begs BS!

They may play on ZOS servers but not live servers because when it's apparent that they designed a Templar with an entire tree for healing...but then suggests they are healing too effectively....uhmm what's the point of nerfing the class when it's a concern for PvP not PvE. When has a PvE group complained about having a Templar who can heal effectively ?

Templars by design are healers. NB by design are DPS, Sorcs by design are DPS and DKs by design are tanks.

Yes they are can mix and match but there is no misunderstanding with who excels at what based on class skills and the racial bonuses along with armor sets.

If they play all classes then it has to be with an understanding that they don't play with us.
When ever has a group complained in PvE about Templar heals when they have one? He then gives an example of how an undaunted skill did too much healing...OK so it seems they are only concerned with making things more and more difficult.
Then freaking go back to the base design in closed beta in 2013. Allow CPs to mitigate difficulty cause that's why many were excited about CPs. It's an account wide system that has an option to enhance your effectiveness or just to be left unused.

Perhaps in PvP there are concerns but again since the first nerf on Templar shield in 2014, that was a PvP concern not PvE. If they all play then they should comprehend that it's detrimental to their game to change or apply nerfs due to a PvP situation or a PvE situation or vice versa. The skills just need adjustments in each setting being PvE only or PvP only. You don't penalize everyone cause your design is being used effectively in one instance so you make sweeping changes to both.

That's like adding CP without removing Vr because you messed up when adding VR and don't know how to remove Vr after adding CP so you cap both Vr and CP for over 6 months and move on to something else without fixing the problems you had and the new problems you created ....OH wait. That is what ZOS does.

I prob won't be around to see VR removal at this rate but considering these guys have this solo only stuff and then go live talking about group effects and those are the reasoning for changes....WTH guys....again. Do you actually play the game?

Actually I think they should do what DCUO did, and base the balance of their pve around pvp design. If they do this everything will fall into place. PvE balance ---> Pvp has never worked in a game as far as I've seen it. When they base the design of the game around the way PVP works though, something beautiful happens.

I have to passionately disagree because that is exactly what they're doing now.
Since launch the majority of changes are due to PvP.
It's not PvE that's driving changes at all...it's all PvP and that's the larger issue. DCUO isn't a good design for this game tho.

They really need to look at effects for PvE and effects for PvP and make changes by keeping the same skills but costs and outcomes being based on if you're in PvE or in PvP.

Otherwise one will always hurt the other.
You can't create balance off human behaviors and hope that it works for human vs NPC designs.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Respectfully the PTS has copied my actual characters.
No idea why you'd assume we aren't using our actual characters.

Templates are a diff thing but my personal responses on the many topics are based off actual experiences on my characters on this PTS. Up until they broke PTS with the x64 client

I haven't said you haven't used your actual chars, i just said that I haven't used mine (I'm on EU).
And why I respect your feedback and all, I cannot base my own opinion on them, I need to play with my characters to form my own opinion.

.

Always a good idea to test things yourself.

Difference between 1.6 and TG is 1.6 had some huge system changes that went very deep. Sorcerers soon found out that they could stack magicka and magic regeneration to crazy levels and so they discovered the deeply flawed stacked defense/offense that was possible with the removal of caps and certain skills.

If TG had some kind of change that had deep currents to combat then things would be far more up in the air. As it stands, it has been very easy to look at the skill changes and say "that's it?"

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm glad templars are going away from "all templars must heal" and "only templars can heal".

I think you misunderstand. Read the PTS forum on Templars

It's going to Templars can't heal, or DPS or Tank

I know. But what I wrote is the one thing I'm happy about and I have no firm opinion about the rest (so far).
And people should wait before going all nuts : how many of those who criticize have actually tested the new configuration ?
Which is why I voted for the first option.

I chose the answer with the mixed bag. I know enough about Templar gameplay to know that their job isn't done, but there are things they did which I definitely appreciate (like major mending on the cleansing ritual).

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

I'm glad that Eric confirmed that all members of his team play all the classes. Means they have good overview of what's going on

Respectful to you. That does sound good but the thought and mindset he continues to share begs BS!

They may play on ZOS servers but not live servers because when it's apparent that they designed a Templar with an entire tree for healing...but then suggests they are healing too effectively....uhmm what's the point of nerfing the class when it's a concern for PvP not PvE. When has a PvE group complained about having a Templar who can heal effectively ?

Templars by design are healers. NB by design are DPS, Sorcs by design are DPS and DKs by design are tanks.

Yes they are can mix and match but there is no misunderstanding with who excels at what based on class skills and the racial bonuses along with armor sets.

If they play all classes then it has to be with an understanding that they don't play with us.
When ever has a group complained in PvE about Templar heals when they have one? He then gives an example of how an undaunted skill did too much healing...OK so it seems they are only concerned with making things more and more difficult.
Then freaking go back to the base design in closed beta in 2013. Allow CPs to mitigate difficulty cause that's why many were excited about CPs. It's an account wide system that has an option to enhance your effectiveness or just to be left unused.

Perhaps in PvP there are concerns but again since the first nerf on Templar shield in 2014, that was a PvP concern not PvE. If they all play then they should comprehend that it's detrimental to their game to change or apply nerfs due to a PvP situation or a PvE situation or vice versa. The skills just need adjustments in each setting being PvE only or PvP only. You don't penalize everyone cause your design is being used effectively in one instance so you make sweeping changes to both.

That's like adding CP without removing Vr because you messed up when adding VR and don't know how to remove Vr after adding CP so you cap both Vr and CP for over 6 months and move on to something else without fixing the problems you had and the new problems you created ....OH wait. That is what ZOS does.

I prob won't be around to see VR removal at this rate but considering these guys have this solo only stuff and then go live talking about group effects and those are the reasoning for changes....WTH guys....again. Do you actually play the game?

Actually I think they should do what DCUO did, and base the balance of their pve around pvp design. If they do this everything will fall into place. PvE balance ---> Pvp has never worked in a game as far as I've seen it. When they base the design of the game around the way PVP works though, something beautiful happens.

Absolutely. Battle Spirit is what should be the basis of how they need to balance the game. Balance it out so there is NO Battle Spirit and you don't need to revamp classes to give them back what they lost in Battle Spirit nerfs to shields and healing.

Of course removing capped stats and then adding CP bonus added to this issue. For every CP you spend it gives you more health for the red tree, stam for the green tree, and magicka for the blue tree. Add on vet 11-16 since launch, the 5 pc sets ... = creep.

I think they need to get away from gimmick dungeon mechanics as well. They need more chaos so that 12 players couldn't possibly be healed by 1 or 2 healers and would have to self heal/mitigate and avoid damage like in PVP. Then CC might mean something in PVE because currently it has so little value. Like HA, HP, and tanks.

Each class should help with buffing their party with regeneration. DK and templar could be stam, while NB and Sorc could be Magicka, and everyone will be able to heal some. Buffs and Debuffs should be more unique to classes (as they used to be). Templars and NB should debuff the enemy, DK and Sorc should buff themselves ... of course all of this sounds like a plan and what ZOS appears to be doing is working with out a plan and just increasing DPS across the board.