Stop Catering to Instant Gratification Gamers

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

But OP, that short term money is all ZOS cares about.

Casual gamers are the same as mobile gamers...the type of people who drop $99.99 (US currency is the only currency that matters) on crappy mobile games that offer short term thrills.

You're not very well informed it seems

On the contrary, I'm just your typical cocky American Marine

Well the typical cocky american marine is never actually well informed

Cut me deep.

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

I hate the fact that I have to cook stuff in order to max out my provisioning. Can I just walk by a cooking fire and max it out that way?

Sunburnt_Penguin · February 2016

I have a few issues with your OP:

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it.

Incorrect assumptions based on impulse-driven subjectivity, not all "casual gamers":
1. Want instant gratification
2. Will flutter away after 6 months
3. Are not competitive
4. Do not want to be the best player they can be

Furthermore, not all "long-term core gamers" follow the criteria you listed above.

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc...

As are others who are here and still regularly playing PvP: whether that be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year or 2.

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:
Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

Surely as business owner you'd realise that they want to appeal to the largest playerbase. Sorry, Special Snowflake.. That's not you (as evidenced by their actions). Think of the BCG Matrix: you're the Dog (low share & growth) whereas they're the Star (high share and growth). How do you create "long-term core gamers"/Dogs? By hooking the "casual gamers"/Stars in. How do you stop a maturing game from declining? By stimulating growth. It's fundamental business.

Without these "casual gamers" regularly spending £/$60 on the game and ESO+/DLCs, it's likely that YOU wouldn't have as much content, hot fixing or support as you currently have.

me_ming · February 2016

@Emma_Eunjung True. While I agree that you have to earn most things in this game, I don't think it's healthy as well, if you isolate newer players just because you've been in game longer. lol. That's just being a bully.

eliisra · February 2016

It's not even that ESO caters to casuals, because casual players still log and play the game.

They cater to people that cant even be arsed playing/logging in at all lol. They cater to inactives.

I will for example try out Black Desert with my PvP guild next month. Likely be inactive from ESO for a couple of months to half a year. Crazy thing is, when I come back(because I will), nothing will have changed for me progression wise.

I will still be above CP cap. I will still be max level. I will still have close to BiS gear in a few hours. I will still have all combat passives and crafting maxed. If there's a new motif I want, buy it with gold or crowns. I will be at the very same spot, progression wise, as someone who didn't leave to play Black Desert for 6 months. That's how much they cater to people who likes a relaxed pace

Molag_Crow · February 2016

eliisra wrote: »

It's not even that ESO caters to casuals, because casual players still log and play the game.

They cater to people that cant even be arsed playing/logging in at all lol. They cater to inactives.

I will for example try out Black Desert with my PvP guild next month. Likely be inactive from ESO for a couple of months to half a year. Crazy thing is, when I come back(because I will), nothing will have changed for me progression wise.

I will still be above CP cap. I will still be max level. I will still have close to BiS gear in a few hours. I will still have all combat passives and crafting maxed. If there's a new motif I want, buy it with gold or crowns. I will be at the very same spot, progression wise, as someone who didn't leave to play Black Desert for 6 months. That's how much they cater to people who likes a relaxed pace

So true... I'm going to give Legion (expansion) a chance and that's what I was thinking about ESO; "I won't lose any progression or feel that I must keep up in any way, because pretty much everything will still be there for me, and useful..." when I come back, of course ^^

Although what I eventually got bored of with WoW, is getting BiS gear then vendoring it in the new expansion because it became worthless. I quite like how ESO isn't much like that, apart from the veteran rank increases I guess.

Asmodean · February 2016

To me, getting everything too easy in an MMO, is basically like when you were younger, and you tried turning on a bunch of cheats in your favourite game, and completely ruined it for yourself.

TheTwistedRune · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

Hmmmm. I consider myself a casual gamer (due to wife, family and work) and don't necessarily disagree with many of your points. However I have been here since beta, a constant subscriber and play at least a few times a week. Hence, I disagree that long term core players are only "competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP" etc.

People play for many reasons. Be it PVP, roleplaying, group PVE and solo PVE. While I agree with the points you mention about earning things, I think it would be unfair that ZOS should only focus on high end gameplay and PVP and neglect other areas (such as crown store) that can draw new players to the game.

No single type of player is more entitled to be catered to by ZOS than another, as personal opinions on what contributes positively to the health of the game cannot be guaranteed accurate unless confirmed by ZOS.

Just my 2 cents.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

'Earning it' is all well and good, but I do think MMO's place too heavy emphasis on gear in general. I think they should make player skill more prominent by making gear less important. That is just my opinion. I don't feel the need to be 10x better than someone just because I ran through and killed millions mobs in an excrutiatingly mindnumbing and repetitive dungeon crawl. I don't even think the people who do this sort of thing really want to be doing it, they do it simply because it gives them that edge - but it can't be fun. I think if they tear down the artificial walls on some of these things and allow the game to be more about player skill (on any mmo) I think the player base would be freed up to have more fun. Just my thoughts, and I realize there's a vocal crowd that love their quarterly gear grind.

I think this would also give the added benefit of uniting the goals of fun with the goals of progression and skill. It would mean people on the whole would feel more free to simply enjoy the game, and that would be good.

Leovolao · February 2016

Rank 40 pvper here telling you it doesn't matter, at all. If you already have alliance war skill lines to max, the rest are only cool symbols (some of them, at least) and a couple pretty colors.

Xjcon · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

It's funny how people use the word casual as some sort of insult to people who play less then them.

You think the game should hold you up on a pedestal simply because you put more time in? Or are you trying to hold new players back so you have the advantage forever? I'm not sure which one your after here.

I consider myself Casual, but I am on several of the leaderboards, And I don't get your point. Are you mad that people will have access to the PVP skills sooner?

There is too much grind in this game to begin with. Making AvA skill lines easier to get will be healthy for the game. I have Proxy on 2 of my charachters and almost have it on my 3rd so I know what the AVA grind is all about, and I got these without being in some zerg group casting Rapid regen the whole time.

I'm happy that other people won't have to spend their PVP experience being farmed trying to earn the millions of AP needed to get on the same level as the old timers.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · February 2016

People still pvp in this game?

Anhedonie · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

PVPers look like a bunch of casuals during vICP runs.

Casual players can be both pvpers and pvers. The mount buyers...well, they just buy stuff they want.
I blame RPers people who whine on this forum. And ZOS for listening to whiny ***.

Mashille · February 2016

Wait, what changes don't you like?

eNumbra · February 2016

keybaud wrote: »

Wait, what changes don't you like?

Sounded mostly like Alliance War rank/PvP rank bitching.

I always love the "I earned it when it was hard, so should you" attitude though; people act like everyone else is acting entitled but its just as entitled a mindset as anything else.

RatedChaotic · February 2016

Sadly the developers think this way.....Earn as much as you can as fast as you can and get out.

Asmodean · February 2016

Maybe they want you clearing content asap. So you're ready to purchase more dlc? ;p

it's a conspiracy *plays xfiles theme*

Necrelios · February 2016

It seems like Casual players have stable income sources so there is good market potential there perhaps. I don't think everyone can hope to be pro gamers and make a living streaming and all that, and those who can't need jobs or some source of income which takes time away from gaming obviously. If you look at where perhaps the majority of the market potential resides it makes economic sense to make an appeal towards casual gamers. Naturally businesses will gravitate to whatever has the best market potential at the time.

phairdon · February 2016

Consider myself a casual too, play when time permits. I do not bother with the alliance war, leader boards or dungeons. Multiple veteran characters at different levels. Gone through the same process leveling each one, from level 1 to VR16. Pay subscription, buy mounts, pets etc with crowns. Bought mounts before the crown store came into being, who didn't? Even if only 1 gold for the Imperial mount.
Worked my way through crafting like anyone else.
CP wise, I've only got around 360, not really a lot considering I've been here since the last 2 beta's. Expect nothing handed to me. If I do not have the same gear as other players, because I do not run dungeons or pvp, such is life. Heck, most of my gear is green or blue.
Do not agree with every decision made around this game. Constant skill nerfs due pvp annoy me or the removal of veteran ranks, as an example. I do try & accept changes without too much gnashing of teeth. Pointless getting to worked up & spitting the dummy.

BabeestorGor · February 2016

Necrelios wrote: »

It seems like Casual players have stable income sources so there is good market potential there perhaps. I don't think everyone can hope to be pro gamers and make a living streaming and all that, and those who can't need jobs or some source of income which takes time away from gaming obviously. If you look at where perhaps the majority of the market potential resides it makes economic sense to make an appeal towards casual gamers. Naturally businesses will gravitate to whatever has the best market potential at the time.

That in itself makes so many assumptions.
The OP is a hardcoregamer with a family and business
Myself I'm a "casual" gamer, single with grown up children, low-paid low-hours job. Seems like I'd be a prime candidate for hardcore but I have other things to occupy my time with and not much spare income to spend on the Crown Store. Doesn't mean I won't be still playing ESO in a year or 5 years etc.

Francescolg · February 2016

Compared to old Daoc (and imo the only positive thing about ESO), it is good that they cater the casuals, as a too immersive and time consuming game would not be good for the people's health (Daoc PvP was so good, that some people died because of playing to much within the first 6-12 months! [remember EU/DE Avalon-Albion/Midgard] We even had funeral-events, 200 players sitting in a circle, etc..). ESO will never DO the magic Daoc did to it's players, having gold drops from open-world pvp monsters, etc. (I'll stop comparing as Daoc changed too much after 1-2 y).

Beside, ESO has enough content for hardcore PvE's. The only problem I see, is the "spot" way of healing, which greatly favors all forms of stick-zerg (pve and pvp), and how they kick themselves in the A.. by introducing new (not easily obtainable) items, while at the same time penalizing all casual players with the -50% pvp-reduction (without access to the necessary items due to random-unfriendly dungeons), which means: either you get the gear, which caused them to make it -50% dmg, or you get stampeded even ore in pvp.

All in all, the player who claimed that PvP ranks in ESO don't matter at all, he is 100% right. And most of my friends discovered it within the first 3 months, which is one reason why they quit the game.
Again: after rank ~20 you get nothing for higher pvp ranks, so nobody really cares.
The pro-pvp'ers, that have been playing since release of the game, are the ones who play PvP for FUN, not the ones who needed linear (year-long) progression, so what they do to pvp ranks does interest anybody, as we stopped being interested with our rank 10 skills, nearly 2 years ago.-.

TheShadowScout · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

“Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers!

Casual gamers are something different...
...I prefer to call the "instent gratification" players "the gimme crowd" instead...

Though while I may be a "casual" gamer in that I don't play hours every day, don't attian the skill to dominate leaderboards or PvP, or rack up every achievement, I still agree with most of that is said.
Things should not be handed to people, they should go and earn it. No matter if its alliance ranks, riding lessions, achievements, c-points, levels, veteran ranks, nifty gear, etc.

Taryf wrote: »

As i remember "casual" means something else.
Hardcore plays a lot and long gaming sesions
Casual plays in free time, and much shorter

Indeed.
In any case, I am one of those who came here for the lore and the background... that is what kept me playing ESO since launch.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Although I agree with a lot of this, there is a flaw in your rant. The "old timers", by definition, did not have to earn their PvP ranks by competing against players with Vigor, Caltrops, Proxy Det and a whole bunch of gear and other perks that's hard for a newbie to acquire. Most new PvP players find out fast that the reason they're not making much AP is because THEY are the ones being farmed for AP. This is very discouraging. All of Cyrodiil and PvP gameplay is structured for delivering clueless "potatoes" to be farmed by more experienced and well organized players. It's not a fun game when you're on the wrong end of this equation and discover that you ALWAYS will be because the rate you gain AP is so painfully slow.

Very well stated.
One of the reasons I keep saying less-then-super-effective PvPeople who get farmed for AP should get some AP for "making the effort", though I guess ZOS is looking in a different direction to deal with the issue... their choice.

Reevster · February 2016

If it wasn't for the so called "casuals" (I lol at that.) the game would die, all those elitists would have no one to sell there high end junk to or kill in PvP for that matter .

Saw this attitude destroy other games, and drive away 90 percent of their paying customers, only ones left were a few hardcore gamers who jump ship at the first chance to play the next big new released game.

There is a balancing act these companies need to do to try and make everyone as happy as possible, smart gaming companies figure it out or die.

Elijah_Crow · February 2016

I want ESO to cater to casual players with ease of entry and lots of things to achieve. I don't want them to forget about the long term player however. They need to have things to achieve for long term dedicated players so we can continue to work towards goals, etc. you can have both!

Recremen · February 2016

I agree on most counts, but you're so far off regarding AP. Ask a new player if they remember 100k/hour nights with their guild. They'll think you're crazy or lying. AP is way harder to earn these days, it will still be way harder after the patch, and the adjusted ability thresholds reflect the reality of the situation, which is that all us old guard types had it way easier and it's time to level things out based on the changes from launch to now.

Tholian1 · February 2016

bedlom wrote: »

Nothing in this game is instant gratification.

Agree completely.

SemiD4rkness · February 2016

Anhedonie wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

PVPers look like a bunch of casuals during vICP runs.

Casual players can be both pvpers and pvers. The mount buyers...well, they just buy stuff they want.
I blame RPers people who whine on this forum. And ZOS for listening to whiny ***.

u mad m8? Pvp is 100% elite hardcore full time players

SirDopey · February 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

Although I agree with a lot of this, there is a flaw in your rant. The "old timers", by definition, did not have to earn their PvP ranks by competing against players with Vigor, Caltrops, Proxy Det and a whole bunch of gear and other perks that's hard for a newbie to acquire. Most new PvP players find out fast that the reason they're not making much AP is because THEY are the ones being farmed for AP. This is very discouraging. All of Cyrodiil and PvP gameplay is structured for delivering clueless "potatoes" to be farmed by more experienced and well organized players. It's not a fun game when you're on the wrong end of this equation and discover that you ALWAYS will be because the rate you gain AP is so painfully slow.

ZOS has finally identified this problem and has come up with a sensible fix. I'm sorry if that rankles the old timers, but considering how many nerfs PvE players have had to endure because of PvP complaints, I think you guys can live with it!

Really Well Said.

I'd also like to add that as much as the "hardcore 8 hour a day" players have their sense of entitlement, you are NOT the back bone of the game, you are a very small population in relation to the total playing pool and the game certainly shouldn't cater entirely to your whims.

Furthermore, I definitely would not be lumping every casual player into the "instant gratification" category. I'm definitely in the causal list, averaging a couple of hours a night. That being said, I have a maxed out crafter with all traits, 7 high VETs (plus 3 characters I decided I didn't like and deleted), my own unique builds on all my PVP toons, have completed every form of End game content and regularly finish in the top 10% of Azuras PC NA. I most certainly don't consider myself in the seeking instant gratification class, but I do look forward to the AP changes and feel they'll bring more balance to PVP

wharf · February 2016

OP you mentioned something about maxing out CP because you earned it...lol. So you deserve to be more powerful than everyone else because you killed more zombies and have les of a social life than everyone else playing the game. Why would you even want to have max CP? Anyone you beat in PvP has a massive disadvantage and I would never get gratification out of killing people I know are at a serious numerical disadvantage...thats just me tho

Alorier · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Oh look, another thread full of pathetic ego

Nothing to do with ego...My point was more towards ZOS and the changes they are making due to threads of complaints.

Lol and you think all the complaints are from the causal players only