Stop Catering to Instant Gratification Gamers

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

PvP rank doesn't matter for one reason and one reason only - it's not account wide, meaning you can be max PvP rank on your main and then start an alternative who will be low level.

Oh and also ability does not directly scale with experience since some people take exponentially longer to get good, so some low ranks that are a quick study can demolish high ranks...

DRXHarbinger · February 2016

So what this thread is saying is we need to nerf Templars? Once animation cancelling is done away with everything will be much better. New xbox controllers are killing pvp. I'll try a dvr recording next time I come across a certain player. Literally no animation but 5 attacks in the kill feed no lag as it's this one individual. Even healing, stealthing and buffing is all instant. These combi paddles are ruining the console game big time (now rushes off to buy one to rekt people) but OP gone quiet Bro.

Necrelios · February 2016

BabeestorGor wrote: »

Necrelios wrote: »

It seems like Casual players have stable income sources so there is good market potential there perhaps. I don't think everyone can hope to be pro gamers and make a living streaming and all that, and those who can't need jobs or some source of income which takes time away from gaming obviously. If you look at where perhaps the majority of the market potential resides it makes economic sense to make an appeal towards casual gamers. Naturally businesses will gravitate to whatever has the best market potential at the time.

That in itself makes so many assumptions.
The OP is a hardcoregamer with a family and business
Myself I'm a "casual" gamer, single with grown up children, low-paid low-hours job. Seems like I'd be a prime candidate for hardcore but I have other things to occupy my time with and not much spare income to spend on the Crown Store. Doesn't mean I won't be still playing ESO in a year or 5 years etc.

That's exactly what I said o.O

Personofsecrets · February 2016

Actually, all of those changes make the game way more fun regardless of how they gratify players

Hamrb · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

well ranks will still be as hard to get, they are not being nerfed

Anhedonie · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

PVPers look like a bunch of casuals during vICP runs.

Casual players can be both pvpers and pvers. The mount buyers...well, they just buy stuff they want.
I blame RPers people who whine on this forum. And ZOS for listening to whiny ***.

u mad m8? Pvp is 100% elite hardcore full time players

lol

nvyr · February 2016

I think many folks have different definitions of a casual gamer. I consider myself a casual gamer, but not for what some here are calling ppl who only play for a short period of time then quit the game but because I have a job and work 8-10 hours a day and only have time to play an hour or 2 when I get home. And as for those casuals players who buy stuff, again its because we have jobs to pay for it and not sitting around playing 12 or more hours out of the day. Many games take in this into account such as FFxiv where you earned an XP buffer for a limited time depending on how long you're logged off so you can keep up with friends who are on all day, once you burn off the XP buffer you gain normal XP until to log off for awhile. So lets give the long term (working class) casual players a break.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Necrelios wrote: »

It seems like Casual players have stable income sources so there is good market potential there perhaps. I don't think everyone can hope to be pro gamers and make a living streaming and all that, and those who can't need jobs or some source of income which takes time away from gaming obviously. If you look at where perhaps the majority of the market potential resides it makes economic sense to make an appeal towards casual gamers. Naturally businesses will gravitate to whatever has the best market potential at the time.

This is precisely why particularly an action based mmo I believe should be based more on skill than gear. Let the content be the entertainment, and the skill be how well you perform in that entertainment. That's all I'm suggesting. This would make all the content worthwhile, and it would put entertainment choices in the customer's hands. It boggles the mind that people want to play the quarterly gear rodeo, and think it is fun as well as equitable. I lack the time currently to farm up/craft V16 gear. Does this instantaneously make me a bad player? I don't think so. Does it make me lazy? No, this is entertainment. I've put a metric f-ton of time into the game as it is. I have multiple v16's, and an account of only vets. I even have vets on the European server, where a few of my European chums I've gamed with reside. This is where gear becomes a problem with a game, and then the game designers are forced to create crutches to bring people up to a new 'lowest common denominator' just so the leap in gear and the differential between top end players and bottom end/new players is not so high that new people do not want to play the game. You do not want to create structural barriers of entry for new players (and this should be true of players as well). It takes enough time commitment to max out all morphs of all skills on a character, it takes many hundreds of hours to build up your Alliance Rank. It takes hundreds of hours to build up your Undaunted rank.

There is a logic problem with differential in gear as well. I realize the game exists in a fantasy, but lets get real here. If I'm wielding a macuahuitl and I'm very skilled in swordsmanship, I'm fairly certain I can adapt my skills quickly and be a danger. In reality, the bearer of the weapon is more important than the weapon itself. Weapons are just extensions of the user, they are tools of death. While a finely crafted Toledo steel, Damascas steel, or japanese steel sword is very nice I can assure you that some roughly crafted iron or bronze can deal death quite well also. The functional difference between the two is no where near in comparison between level 1 and v16. This leveling of gear has always annoyed me from a logical standpoint. In short, I would much rather gear be a more consumable thing. If gear were consumable it would make crafting a lot more interesting, and build up communities between players. If specific resources had to be farmed from trials or dungeons, they would get farmed by guilds to pass along to their pvp mates and sold on exchanges. It would liven up the economy in a fundamental way. At any regard that is my suggestion, and I don't expect ZoS to listen to my advice, but its just the thoughts of someone who has played a number of MMO's as well as Fallout/TES/Halo/Counterstrike (and other games) and knows what he likes.

There is one final concern I want to state about what I call the 'Gear Rodeo'. This quarterly gear upgrade has a tendency to blow game balance completely out of whack, on just about any MMO that I've run into that uses this as a model. What ends up happening is that every couple of years the Developers have to 'reinvent the MMO' just to make it work with the stupid pile of crap they created with set gear and the like. This 'power creep' a term I'm sure a lot of you are aware of, is generally pushed by gear systems. When you have too many multipliers coming in from too many sources, it is easy for the game balance to get out of control. I think from a system design standpoint, it would be good for game designers if they would also consider this when creating gear. I know they want it to be cool, and I'm fine with that, but something should not be so cool that it is game breaking or causes the developers to create huge changes in other systems, thereby upending the whole thing and forcing them to start over. This Gear Rodeo leads to burnout on Hardcores/No-Lifers as well as Casuals alike (By the way I think these terms are pretty ridiculous to begin with, and mean different things to different people). So that is my thought on the catering of instant gratification.

I can accept the notion that there shouldn't be instant gratification. Let people earn their rank, their skill morphs, etc. I'm all for that. What I loathe is the hunt for ephemeral power, the chasing of the digital dragon that is the gear rodeo, or the hamsterwheel of digital crap.

TLDR: Let gear mean 10% of power, and let skill and character investment dominate, that is my suggestion.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

Hmm so you basically want ZOS to only listen to the no lifes who spend 70+ hours a week playing instead of those "casual" as you are putting them players.

Hmm ok that is by far one of the stupidest things I ever heard cause hey just cause a player can not play 70+ a week like you can doesn't mean they are not fans who are gonna be staying for the long term. I am a beta player and have been playing for almost 2 years now but unlike you I have a job and a life to worry about so that means I can not spend 70+ hours a week like you do and this scenario is the same as most "casuals" they love the game and will play it for hopefully years to come but they also have to worry about a job, a family, a life.

But of course all this is my opinion

So nut shell it's no lifes like you ZOS shouldn't be listing too. But of course your not gonna read and just make some sad rage post about how my opinion is wrong since "casuals" have no business on ESO.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Hardcore never meant people who play more hours into the game than work. Those are called basement dwellers.

Hardcore players play the game at the hardest difficulties, complete all the hard content, and do it repeatedly. Hardcore PvPers are beast mode, the top percent of players.

Casuals are people who don't put much thought into min/max or specs and don't care about the current meta, etc etc.

You can be hardcore player and play very few hours a week.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

nvyr wrote: »

I think many folks have different definitions of a casual gamer. I consider myself a casual gamer, but not for what some here are calling ppl who only play for a short period of time then quit the game but because I have a job and work 8-10 hours a day and only have time to play an hour or 2 when I get home. And as for those casuals players who buy stuff, again its because we have jobs to pay for it and not sitting around playing 12 or more hours out of the day. Many games take in this into account such as FFxiv where you earned an XP buffer for a limited time depending on how long you're logged off so you can keep up with friends who are on all day, once you burn off the XP buffer you gain normal XP until to log off for awhile. So lets give the long term (working class) casual players a break.

The hard part is when you're playing against retirees who have a lot of money -and- time. I had a friend in another game who was like this, and a diehard pvp fella, and I could never keep up with him unless I wanted to spend really stupid amounts of cash on that game.

Vangy · February 2016

Removing vet ranks, lowering Ava level requirements are all good things. Depends on how you look at it. If you're the kind of gamer that has one single main toon and spend all your time on this toon, then yea, you're going to feel like zos is handing out goodies.

However, for someone like me, I've got 6 toons 3 of them v16 fully decked out in gold v16 gear, completed vwgt vICP maelstrom arena etc etc. I earned this all. However I just don't feel like grinding all this 3 more times on my 3 baby toons. Vet rank removals and Ava requirement reductions will finally motivate me enough to get my 3 other toons to max with proxy det etc. 200k might seem like a small number to you, but multiply this by 6-8 and you have a sizeable grind before you. There's always 2 sides to a coin.

acw37162 · February 2016

Sigh..........

Almost, everything I dislike about the internet in one post. Almost but not quite keep trying young Padawn Im sure you can get to all of the things I dislike if you try really really hard and then you will have earned it.

Llyw · February 2016

me_ming wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung True. While I agree that you have to earn most things in this game, I don't think it's healthy as well, if you isolate newer players just because you've been in game longer. lol. That's just being a bully.

bul·ly1.
[ˈbo͝olē]
NOUN
1.a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.

I think you should really look at the meaning of words you are trying to use.

If you are trying to shame a group of players for playing the game and earning things then it is you who is being a bully. In this case you are trying to intimidate by shaming, accusing folks of being a bully.

CapnPhoton · February 2016

BabeestorGor wrote: »

OP's post is a load of prejudice unsupported by evidence
Just because someone is a "casual" mmo player doesn't mean they don't take their gaming seriously, aren't competitive , don't want challenging content etc
It does mean they probably don't want endless grinding though
By all means lock the best gear behind difficult dungeons and trials, just don't make getting the gear once they are completed depend on having the time to run them dozens of times

Yeah but you are not going to tell an entitled person that with any positive result. I am casual too and will be around for a while. I played EQ casually for 9 years. I paced myself and stuck around. the same is true here. Fussy generalizations about casual or hardcore don't really help anyone. I suggest ignoring them.

Lenikus · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

But OP, that short term money is all ZOS cares about.

Casual gamers are the same as mobile gamers...the type of people who drop $99.99 (US currency is the only currency that matters) on crappy mobile games that offer short term thrills.

You're not very well informed it seems

On the contrary, I'm just your typical cocky American Marine

Well the typical cocky american marine is never actually well informed

Forget the thread. I came in for this.

TalonKnight · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

Sorry man, but the truth is if u r as hardcore as u say u r then by all means PVP should all b an EVEN playing field, like GW2 did it, cause in that game the only person that won was the better player, NOT the 1 running around in god mode gear with high stats.

And another reason people cant stand PVP at its current state is cause u can do that animation cancelling bull crap, which basically should b considered cheating.

So for the love of elitism please tell me u dont animation cancel while u go around smacking low levs, and say u "enjoy the challenge"

kevlarto_ESO · February 2016

I just play the game, and have fun, I pve do all the content, and I pvp in fact I pvp everyday for hours, I feel no need to grind cp, and I am beyond the 501 mark. I feel no need to grind AP, they all come as part of my play, I do ok I am always in the top 50 of my class, and since I eat sleep and go outside I am happy with that, I hang with my friends.

I would love to see ZOS, add things from the store in game after the sales slump off give us another avenue to gain some things, through game play, does not matter what your play style is, some folks like going to the store and buying things, maybe they don't have the time to spend endless hours in dungeons, I like to play the game, I have bought one thing out of the store since it went live, does not matter how you obtain your goods, I would just like to see more options.

Lysette · February 2016

Xellos77 wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

So don't cater to their largest population? Smart business move.

Wanted to respond, but I saw the words have already been spoken before me.

As a side note, "Hardcore" undoubtedly makes up the smallest percentage of the player base. As a business-woman, you should know what this means. Cater to your population.

You may be interested in EVE Online, however. I hear the whole game is one giant Hardcore player-base. No personal experience because I never played it, but I hear it's a very intense game socially-wise.

EVE online is by far more suitable for casual gamers (but it has a steep learning curve), because skills are acquired over time. If you are logged in or not, if you play a lot or not at all, does not matter. A very fair way to do it. The advantage which 12h/day players have is far less than in ESO. And there is basically no grind required as well. And it is very well and continously balanced, there is no "best item/ship" in EVE online.

Bossdonut · February 2016

But I want it now. I want it all.

And I don't care how.

Lysette · February 2016

Egonieser wrote: »

Xellos77 wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

So don't cater to their largest population? Smart business move.

Wanted to respond, but I saw the words have already been spoken before me.

As a side note, "Hardcore" undoubtedly makes up the smallest percentage of the player base. As a business-woman, you should know what this means. Cater to your population.

You may be interested in EVE Online, however. I hear the whole game is one giant Hardcore player-base. No personal experience because I never played it, but I hear it's a very intense game socially-wise.

Indeed it is. There is no hand-holding - you are thrust in a virtual world after the tutorial to fend for yourself. Unless you have friends to back you up - you are alone facing the big dogs and virtual corporate suits both good and evil alike. Nobody will hesitate to take an advantage of you and the game environment and the core concept of it is built around it - you forge your own fate and path - just like in real world.
A gameplay like that only appeals to those who are willing to dedicate a part of their life to live in a virtual life and make their alter ego's there. Casuals don't last long there, if at all.
There is certainly an appeal and I love it - before I got married and had kids I spent a good long while there, but obviously had to change to something casual for my new schedule such as ESO ( even the most hardcore elements of ESO are casual compared to EVE)

This is not true, you can be a causal gamer and still have fun in EVE online - i play it since 2008 and I do not have all day to play, but just a limited amount of time to spend on gaming.

Lysette · February 2016

Casual gamers are those who bring in the money and put the least drain on the servers and do not complain all day long. So clearly that is a good choice to cater to them. Most of them will never get any near to be competitive nor do they desire it. For them gaming is about having fun for the amount of time they can spend on gaming, which is not that much, so they try to get the most out of it. In that amount of time, which they can spend on gaming, they want to enjoy it and not grind, so they buy from the cash shop, and why not, they have income, for them these prices are neither high nor would it make a difference to other forms of entertainment, which might even cost more.

So they are easy going customers and it would be silly from ZOS, not to make the game comfortable for them.

EnemyOfDaState · February 2016

I find it hilarious that OP is bashing PVE players as casuals crying for free stuff as if it's not PVP players constantly asking for nerfs and who made EOS give them the best PVE gear because they couldn't be bothered to grind it.

spoqster · February 2016

DatRascal wrote: »

Gamer Rant:

ZOS stop, just stop…catering to “Instant Gratification” (aka Causal) gamers! This type of gamer might hang around for a month or even 6 months, however your long term core gamer base are competitive players who want to have multiple vet ranks alts, max out CP and/or be at the top on leader boards cause we earned it. Stop just giving away what should have to be earned, due to a few casuals complaining. Consider me an “old school gamer” but if you want to be the top rank in any MMO then EARN IT! Part of the allure of an MMO is the longer you stick around the higher rank and more well-crafted alts you can acquire.

• Tired of getting killed by VR16 in PvP…then vet out!
• Want to be top of leader boards then…Earn it!
• Want more CP…Grind It!
• Tired of getting ganked / killed easily or don’t have a skill yet in Cyrodiil that others do…then theory-craft a new build & earn more AP!

Don’t try and tell me PvP rank does not matter; only a PvPer with a low level PvP rank thinks this…trust me I earned every one of my ranks.

Those of us that have been around since Beta are still here 2 years later because we love the game and enjoy the challenge of earning AP, raising our alliance rank & leader board ranks, etc... Catering to the short term instant gratification gamer will continue to kill the core base.

Side Note: Before all you casual gamers try and say “Must be nice to sit in mom’s basement all day and game.” I am the mother; I own my own business, my home and my cars. Sure, I sleep less, log in on breaks from work and spend most of my free time logged in, so I can be compete in this game.

ZOS please continue to design the game to be competitive and challenging…stop making changes to please the short term casual gamer.

If you want to truly feel like you EARNED a top spot on the leaderboards and success in pvp, wouldn't it feel more rewarding if you earned it through pure skill and by competing with all players, instead of excluding the large number of players from the competition that don't want to or haven't yet invested the time to reach v16 and grind for the best gear?

In sports, players compete through skill on a level playing field, whereas in RPGs players are rewarded an illusion of power for investing time.

If you mix the two, you create a game that is impossible to balance, you breed elitism in the game's community, you lock a large chunk of the player base out from key areas of the game, and you make the game unattractive for a large number of potential players who could otherwise help make the game more successful.

So I think any game company should by all means cater to casual gamers, as long as they create game mechanics that are robust and equally challenging for casuals and for hardcore gamers.

Sausage · February 2016

I believe in casuality myself, and I think ESO could use some streamlining too, I think this game is way too consfusing, players dont know what kind of sets theres and where to get them etc, but Leaderboards should be turned into bragging right thing for HC-crowd to get some cosmetic stuff like Titles, Costumes, Crafting Style, Mounts, maybe Elite Gear Upgrade after Legendary, that wouldnt be the end of the world if asked from me.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

I kind of agree with the OP a bit.

Theres always been progression in mmorpg's.

But now because 'casuals' who decided 'you know what i want magicka det, but I don't want to put in the same time and effort as everyone else who has magicka det unlocked because i'm a special snowflake' Therefore i shall cry on the forum until zos eventually ignore all the long term pvp'ers and decide the pve people who barely play pvp has more insight on how pvp should go. Therefore i shall only be appeased when i can unlock magicka det before my character hits lvl 15, and i can unlock the entire alliance war skill tree before i hit 30.

Spottswoode · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

Yes, unfortunately for us, casual gamers are more apt to spend money for gimmicky crap that helps speed the game along.
F2P games specifically cater to that demographic.

Chelos · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

This is the most ********* remark.

Really? Most whining around here is from PvP players...
The PvE tend to find ways around the obstacles they face and ask for help here to improve their build

PvP are so high and mighty and convinced to have the absolute build themselves, they want others that they can't compete against to be nerfed.

Alorier · February 2016

Lol ok get Zos to get rid of the casual gamers and see how long the game lasts it annoys me that a select few on here think they should be able to dictate what goes on , it won't be Zos that kills this game it will be the players stop moaning about everything and just get on a play the damn game

dday3six · February 2016

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Sadly casuals aka pvers/mount-buyers are the ones that are important to Zos b€cau$€.

So I suppose since you're so xtreme-core you'll be posting that video of your group's world first clear of the new trial on PTS any day now. Don't worry I'll wait...

But le gasp a business concerned with profits imagine that.