Argonians...

Titan_Boa · February 2016

I ****ing love Argonians, as a reptile keeper, they are easily my favorite race. I will play them regardless.
However, what would been a decent way of fixing the clear racial issues with us?

Lorewise I think the Khajiit & Bosmer Stealthy racial would be nice to have, along with stamina regen or % increase.
Interested in what other may think would be some nice new racials for the Argonians

Lysette · February 2016

I think that stealth abilities would be ok and go with the lore quite well.

Edit: And I would give Argonians the ability to be nearly undetectable when in water - that is pretty reptilian-like as well.

ShadowDisciple · February 2016

racial system could EASILY be fixed..
just give every race a STAMINA or MAGICKA increase in percentages..

NORDS,Orcs,Imperial,Redguard,Khajiit,Bosmer -STAMINA

Altmer,Dunmer,ARGONIAN,Breton, - MAGICKA

those things fit the lore..nords are BIG BULKY MEN in Snowy Area they naturally have more endurance (stamina)..and Argonianas are very SPIRITUAL (magicka)...it kinda fits...

and then add fluff like swimspeed, regens, resistances ETC..
so no race will be super better

problem now is that curent meta in PVP esspecially is burst DMG and those races that have flat increase in either of the resources gives a quite significant advantage.

PvE ppl dont get too upset but dungs/trials/ even VMA is easily done with any class/race combo...cuz pve is infact much easier as its predictable and bassically "mechanical"

TheTwistedRune · February 2016

I agree. I'm definitely no lore guru, but aren't Argonians supposed to be very good at guerrilla warfare? Probably due to the constant invasions Blackmarsh has suffered. So a buff to stealth and crit abilities would seem to be at least lore friendly.

Titan_Boa · February 2016

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

racial system could EASILY be fixed..
just give every race a STAMINA or MAGICKA increase in percentages..

NORDS,Orcs,Imperial,Redguard,Khajiit,Bosmer -STAMINA

Altmer,Dunmer,ARGONIAN,Breton, - MAGICKA

those things fit the lore... and then add fluff like swimspeed, regens, resistances ETC..
so no race will be super better

problem now is that curent meta in PVP esspecially is burst DMG and those races that have flat increase in either of the resources gives a quite significant advantage.

I like this idea, just to expand on it abit more,
How about a Tier system?

Row 1 (level 5 for example) Select one of - Stamina + x% or Magicka +x% or Health +x%
Row 2 (level xx) - Stamina Regen % - Magicka Regen % - HP Regen %
Row 3 (level xx) Fun RACE only (no choice) example - Swim speed / Red Diamond etc etc.

Lysette · February 2016

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

I agree. I'm definitely no lore guru, but aren't Argonians supposed to be very good at guerrilla warfare? Probably due to the constant invasions Blackmarsh has suffered. So a buff to stealth and crit abilities would seem to be at least lore friendly.

Not to forget the shadow scales - there is a tradition in stealth.

TheTwistedRune · February 2016

Lysette wrote: »

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

I agree. I'm definitely no lore guru, but aren't Argonians supposed to be very good at guerrilla warfare? Probably due to the constant invasions Blackmarsh has suffered. So a buff to stealth and crit abilities would seem to be at least lore friendly.

Not to forget the shadow scales - there is a tradition in stealth.

Yup! Another shadowscale fan I see! Have an awesome on me.

Titan_Boa · February 2016

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

I agree. I'm definitely no lore guru, but aren't Argonians supposed to be very good at guerrilla warfare? Probably due to the constant invasions Blackmarsh has suffered. So a buff to stealth and crit abilities would seem to be at least lore friendly.

This is very true. Also go back to Oblivion & I think to Morrowind aswell & Female Argonians made much better Magicka Users than Males.

ShadowDisciple · February 2016

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

racial system could EASILY be fixed..

just give every race a STAMINA or MAGICKA increase in percentages..

NORDS,Orcs,Imperial,Redguard,Khajiit,Bosmer -STAMINA

Altmer,Dunmer,ARGONIAN,Breton, - MAGICKA

those things fit the lore... and then add fluff like swimspeed, regens, resistances ETC..

so no race will be super better

Titan_Boa wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

racial system could EASILY be fixed..
just give every race a STAMINA or MAGICKA increase in percentages..

NORDS,Orcs,Imperial,Redguard,Khajiit,Bosmer -STAMINA

Altmer,Dunmer,ARGONIAN,Breton, - MAGICKA

those things fit the lore... and then add fluff like swimspeed, regens, resistances ETC..
so no race will be super better

problem now is that curent meta in PVP esspecially is burst DMG and those races that have flat increase in either of the resources gives a quite significant advantage.

I like this idea, just to expand on it abit more,
How about a Tier system?

Row 1 (level 5 for example) Select one of - Stamina + x% or Magicka +x% or Health +x%
Row 2 (level xx) - Stamina Regen % - Magicka Regen % - HP Regen %
Row 3 (level xx) Fun RACE only (no choice) example - Swim speed / Red Diamond etc etc.

yes 100% agree

Mashille · February 2016

Quick to mend should also add some 3% Stamina cost Reduction.

Thybrinena · February 2016

I think @ShadowDisciple makes a great case.

For me personally, race would've been a purely cosmetic choice and the racials, if required, could've been tiered from the outset.

Tier 1 = Fluff (Swim speed, Run speed etc)
Tier 2 = damage (Weapon, Magic, Crit etc)
Tier 3 = Resource management (Stamina/Magicka/Health)

All would get to choose one of each tier at creation and that would be that, build your character from the outset. I don't think changing the Race is going to be the answer. Yes it is a answer but all that will mean is that Tamriel has more Imperials/Altmer/Bretons/Redguard and nothing else.

Yes, all races are viable ofc (I love my Nord), but to really compete fairly I think all races like Argonians and Nords, more than any, need a stamina/magicka resource for DPS purposes. Especially if ZoS truly wishes for all to be able to play what they want, how they want.

EDIT: I need to pay more attention now that I realise that @Titan_Boa has made a similar suggestion. Would've been the way to go for ZoS imo.

me_ming · February 2016

Oh god, I do wish they revisit the Argoninan race too. I still cannot justify putting points into that swimming passive still. In fact I have yet to meet anyone in game who has put points into it.

Miszou · February 2016

Titan_Boa wrote: »

I ****ing love Argonians, as a reptile keeper, they are easily my favorite race. I will play them regardless.
However, what would been a decent way of fixing the clear racial issues with us?

Well, we're no longer slaves, so that's a big step forward in racial equality. I'll agree that there's still plenty of work that needs to be done though, if we are ever to be regarded as true equals in all of Tamriel.

me_ming wrote: »

Oh god, I do wish they revisit the Argoninan race too. I still cannot justify putting points into that swimming passive still. In fact I have yet to meet anyone in game who has put points into it.

You have now....

RAGUNAnoOne · February 2016

Titan_Boa wrote: »

I ****ing love Argonians, as a reptile keeper, they are easily my favorite race. I will play them regardless.
However, what would been a decent way of fixing the clear racial issues with us?

Lorewise I think the Khajiit & Bosmer Stealthy racial would be nice to have, along with stamina regen or % increase.
Interested in what other may think would be some nice new racials for the Argonians

Lorewise argonians have crap health (any) average stamina (males only) yet great stealthiness (males moreso), magicka potential (females more so) and healing (any). source morrowind and oblivion stats skyim racials.

RAGUNAnoOne · February 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Titan_Boa wrote: »

I ****ing love Argonians, as a reptile keeper, they are easily my favorite race. I will play them regardless.
However, what would been a decent way of fixing the clear racial issues with us?

Lorewise I think the Khajiit & Bosmer Stealthy racial would be nice to have, along with stamina regen or % increase.
Interested in what other may think would be some nice new racials for the Argonians

Lorewise argonians have crap health (any) average stamina (males a bit more) yet great stealthiness (males moreso), magicka potential (females more so) and healing (any). source morrowind and oblivion stats skyim racials.

Perhaps this, amphibious changed to shadowscale linage increase magicka and regen, and allow magic damage from stealth to stun and do blank percent extra damage, change quick to mend to blessings of the hist and reduce healing received to 3 5 7 and add healing done 1.5, 3, 4.5%

Ferrofluid · February 2016

I actually killed someone using the increased swimming speed. They kept spamming wrecking blow so I jumped in a river, and when they followed me, swam to the other side while they were still in the middle and soul assaulted them. Fun times :P

Artjuh90 · February 2016

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

racial system could EASILY be fixed..
just give every race a STAMINA or MAGICKA increase in percentages..

NORDS,Orcs,Imperial,Redguard,Khajiit,Bosmer -STAMINA

Altmer,Dunmer,ARGONIAN,Breton, - MAGICKA

those things fit the lore..nords are BIG BULKY MEN in Snowy Area they naturally have more endurance (stamina)..and Argonianas are very SPIRITUAL (magicka)...it kinda fits...

and then add fluff like swimspeed, regens, resistances ETC..
so no race will be super better

problem now is that curent meta in PVP esspecially is burst DMG and those races that have flat increase in either of the resources gives a quite significant advantage.

PvE ppl dont get too upset but dungs/trials/ even VMA is easily done with any class/race combo...cuz pve is infact much easier as its predictable and bassically "mechanical"

i disagree though. PvP tends to be more hardcore min/max while you also do have these people in PvE you also have the RPers

me_ming wrote: »

Oh god, I do wish they revisit the Argoninan race too. I still cannot justify putting points into that swimming passive still. In fact I have yet to meet anyone in game who has put points into it.

i do but just one of the 3 points. can't be bothered with the potion passive. and thats what makes the passive annoying. one is gicky but fun i would like to keep it be the otherwone is bad aswell

Pepper8Jack · February 2016

Lysette wrote: »

I think that stealth abilities would be ok and go with the lore quite well.

Edit: And I would give Argonians the ability to be nearly undetectable when in water - that is pretty reptilian-like as well.

That would make some incredibly interesting PvP play

GrumpyDuckling · February 2016

I'm shocked that Argonians do not have the same stealthy passive that Bosmer and Khajiit have. Argonians excel in guerrilla warfare and have some of the coolest stealth/assassin lore within Elder Scrolls content (The Dark Brotherhood Shadowscales).

Either the people responsible for making racial passive decisions at ZOS are purposely ignoring Argonian lore, or they want the only stealth races to remain exclusively in the Aldmeri Dominion (Bosmer and Khajiit).

Alagras · February 2016

I would like them to have buffs with healing produced and not healing received. Call it "shamanic something" and i'll be happy with my lizard

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

I like the idea of Argonians having a Stealthy-like trait. I'd get rid of the crit damage bonus from stealth, and perhaps offer them greater stealth detection range and faster movement speed from stealth, if you go this route. I think it should be unique to the Bosmer and Khajiit.

Teflondon75 · February 2016

I have to put in my nod as well. Not to make every race the same...but really, this is an MMO and they have created a scenario where max/regen skill resource(stam/magicka) are simply worth much more than max/regen health. It's also why, comparatively speaking, heavy armor is not good vs med/light overall. They have a game here where DPS is king, yet they are weighting hp/health regen type things on a 1 to 1 with stam/mag. Yeah, things are not equal here. My main is an Argonian and I love him, will play him worst race or not but I AM well aware that because of my race choice I will never be as good as a Altmer/Breton/Imp/Redguard etc. @Shrugs@ Nords are in the same boat. And lets get those Khajit racials fixed :P

All races having some form of magicka/stam stat or skill damage bonus is only fair. It's their game, they must know hp/health regen is simply not worth the same as stam/magicka etc.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

I've said this elsewhere several times but it bears repeating. Stealth-based passives, while lore-friendly for Argonians, in fact bring a lot less to the table than they appear. Khajit and Bosmer players, before their racial passive buffs last summer, frequently outlined the major problems with stealth-based passives, which still have merit. Here are the reasons why:

Stealth-based passives have virtually no impact on PvE. They can be useful for opening against one mob where you can re-stealth between fights, but how difficult is fighting one mob really? They also offer nothing when fighting multiple mobs (which is more common than fighting single mobs), or during prolonged boss fights; this means that in endgame and most PvE content you will not see any benefit from a stealth passive.
Stealth-based passives still have only limited usefulness in PvP. Again, they are good for an opener from stealth (ie ganking), but that's it. And again, in larger and longer fights where you cannot re-stealth, this passive provides no benefit. Moreover, the apparently permanently broken "stuck in combat bug" that prevents stealth will many times also prevent this passive from even being used for random amounts of time while playing in Cyro.
The upcoming buffs to Magelight and Flare will severely impact the effectiveness stealth-based fighting. All classes will have easy access to abilities that will reveal nearby stealthers and prevent them from re-stealthing for a certain amount of time. The slotted and extra buff benefits of these abilities is currently such that either of them will become no-brainers for most players to use. This means any passives tied to stealth, especially combat ones, will have their situational utility greatly reduced in the next Update.
Because of the above 3 points, the limited practical/situational usefulness of stealth passives actually makes the current passives (underpowered as they are) more flexible and useful across all types of playstyles and encounters.
Finally, ZOS has shown themselves unwilling to overhaul Argonian passives like they have for other races. In a twist of delicious irony, ZOS has made a new potion-related bonus that is actually worth considering, but gave it to a new armor set (Alchemist's Set, grants 638 weapon/spell damage for 15 seconds after drinking potion) rather than taking the idea and applying it to the underpowered race that is defined by potion use. This shows us that they are still interesting in tying extra bonuses to potion use, and also that such bonuses can be adequately powerful. As @Jar_Ek pointed out, ZOS also removed the only potion constellation in the Champion System. With these developments in mind, Argonians are more likely to receive increases to the values of existing passive than all new passives.

That said, there could be away to make stealth passives less situational and thus more effective, but that would require far more work than ZOS would (or should, from a business perspective) be willing to commit to (see point #5). Argonians need buffing, but for the above reasons stealth-related passives are the wrong route.

GrumpyDuckling · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like the idea of Argonians having a Stealthy-like trait. I'd get rid of the crit damage bonus from stealth, and perhaps offer them greater stealth detection range and faster movement speed from stealth, if you go this route. I think it should be unique to the Bosmer and Khajiit.

This is a great idea to differentiate from Bosmer and Khajiit. Maybe even something specific to Argonian guerrilla warfare tactics that introduces team-like mechanics.

Guerrilla Stealth:
- Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters.
- Increased damage from stealth when 3 or more Argonians are within 50 meters of each other.

Artjuh90 · February 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like the idea of Argonians having a Stealthy-like trait. I'd get rid of the crit damage bonus from stealth, and perhaps offer them greater stealth detection range and faster movement speed from stealth, if you go this route. I think it should be unique to the Bosmer and Khajiit.

This is a great idea to differentiate from Bosmer and Khajiit. Maybe even something specific to Argonian guerrilla warfare tactics that introduces team-like mechanics.

Guerrilla Stealth:
- Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters.
- Increased damage from stealth when 3 or more Argonians are within 50 meters of each other.

rather have the potion passive. you won't be able yo use that passive in PvE and in PvP you probaby won't have mutch use for it aswell

GrumpyDuckling · February 2016

Artjuh90 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I like the idea of Argonians having a Stealthy-like trait. I'd get rid of the crit damage bonus from stealth, and perhaps offer them greater stealth detection range and faster movement speed from stealth, if you go this route. I think it should be unique to the Bosmer and Khajiit.

This is a great idea to differentiate from Bosmer and Khajiit. Maybe even something specific to Argonian guerrilla warfare tactics that introduces team-like mechanics.

Guerrilla Stealth:
- Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 1/2/3 meters.
- Increased damage from stealth when 3 or more Argonians are within 50 meters of each other.

rather have the potion passive. you won't be able yo use that passive in PvE and in PvP you probaby won't have mutch use for it aswell

I can see the argument for usefulness in the current state of the game - to a certain extent, but I'm more concerned with lore accuracy. If a group of, let's say, three to seven Argonians are rolling together in PVE or PVP and attacking from stealth (as a small guerrilla warfare unit), I think they should receive a substantial enough bonus to damage because it fits so beautifully with Elder Scrolls lore.

Lysette · February 2016

Stealth game play will be a lot harder in PvP in future, @ThatNeonZebraAgain has pointed that out already, but maybe not all read his long post in full. There are better counters to stealth in regards to detection, what will make attacks from stealth harder and especially for a group. So this guerrilla warfare unit thing sound nice, but it might not be that useful as it sounds.

Edit: to me it would make the most sense, if Argonians would be automatically in stealth whenever they are in water swimming (has to be deep enough). Reptiles like alligators perform ambush tactics from water while being pretty much undetectable. So this would make a lot of sense for Argonians and would go well with the swimming speed bonus.

AshTal · February 2016

I wish Argonian's had a decent racial. The potion restore is a complete joke and the health bonus should equals nords. Ok maybe an Argonian shouldn't have the health of a Nord but this is a game and should be balanced. If Nords get 9% bonus health why do Argonian's only get 6%.

Scrap the stupid potion restore and give us something useful, make a quick change now - stamina and magic increase like Dark elves or damage resistance like the Nords. Then when racial changes come in give us decent racials to make up for the crap we have had since Beta.

Lysette · February 2016

When I heard for the first time about the concept of ESO, I hoped for Argonians to have their original "breath under water" and be able to dive. The large water ways in Cyrrodil would have given them the ability to operate and infiltrate from those water ways better than any other race could have done it. So far my hope - but how ZOS has implemented it, basically the main advantage of an Argonian was dropped and all the tactical game play, which could have come from the water ways in Cyrrodil was gone.

Whatzituyah · February 2016

I was looking around in the elderscrolls wiki to see if I can help with this thread but I was looking at the Argonian page but I found a link to this elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Werecrocodiles well on the Elderscrolls Arena page for Argonians they are supposed to be adept in anything related to magic and thievery. That could easily be translated into Magicka and Stealth in someway but as others pointed out stealth only goes so far.