Suggestion: With new CP system, adjust Stam abilities and sets that do Magic damage

Maseri
Maseri
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With the new proposed changes to the CP system, Magic damage has been moved from the "Stam DPS" constellation The Ritual to The Apprentice constellation. Snippet from the most recent PTS notes below for reference:
The Apprentice
Elemental Expert: This ability now increases Flame, Frost, Shock, and Magic Damage dealt by you, instead of Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage only.

The Ritual
Mighty: This ability will now increase Physical, Poison, and Disease Damage dealt, rather than Physical Damage only.
Thaumaturge: This ability now increases the damage done by damage over time effects, instead of increasing Poison, Disease, and Magic Damage.

While this change works great for Magicka characters as this means The Apprentice is now the one constellation to go to for element or magic damage boosts, unfortunately this has the opposite effect on Stamina characters. This means abilities such as Killer's Blade, Power Extraction, Binding Javelin and Biting Jabs from our class abilities now must have their damage boosted by investing in an entirely separate constellation. (Burning Breath and Unyielding Flame do Fire damage and while they are a similar case functionally, changing these is not nearly as simple and violates the existing Ardent Flame theme around Fire damage. Thundering Presence is in a similar boat with Shock damage.)

How many skills fall in this category? (If I missed any, please let me know!)
  • Killer's Blade
  • Power Extraction
  • Binding Javelin
  • Biting Jabs
  • Silver Bolts and both morphs
  • Turn Undead
  • Expert Hunter and both morphs
  • Trap Beast and both morphs
  • Inner Beast

There are also a number of Ultimates which fall into a similar situation, however that is more complex as both Magicka and Stamina characters choose from the same set of Ultimates and outside providing two separate choices per morph where one better scales with "Stamina damage types" and the other "Magicka damage types" (or some other functionality), there is no way to adjust this easily.

That all said, here is what I would like to see done to make this change in the CP constellations agreeable to both sides and align nicely.
  • Killer's Blade -> Now does Physical Damage
  • Power Extraction -> Now Physical (or Disease?) Damage
  • Binding Javelin -> Now does Physical damage
  • Biting Jabs -> Now does Physical Damage
  • Silver Bolts and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage only
  • Turn Undead -> Now does Physical Damage
  • Expert Hunter and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage
  • Trap Beast and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage
  • Inner Beast -> Now does Physical and Disease synergy

Finally there are Item Sets, some arguably quite closely aimed for Stamina characters, which should have their damage types where they deal them aligned to Physical/Poison/Disease damage. I won't go through the entire list of all ESO sets as that is a lengthy list, however here is a recent and quite fitting example:
Eternal Hunt
(2 Items) Adds 967 Maximum Stamina
(3 Items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 Items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 Items) When you roll dodge you leave behind a rune that detonates that detonates when enemies come close dealing 7109 Magic Damage and immobilizing them for 1.5 seconds.

Let's change this 5 Item set bonus to deal Physical, Poison or Disease damage so it now aligns properly with our new CP constellations.
Edited by Maseri on February 6, 2016 12:54AM
  • ryanborror
    ryanborror
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    I think jabs is physical damage and possibly binding javelin too. A lot of info online is outdated. I agree with you in eternal hunt and I definitely agree that Stam night blades will suffer from this tremendously. It makes no sense for killers blade or soul harvest to do magic damage. For this reason I predict the new Stam night blade meta will be 2h and bow. 2hand will give them executioner to scale with physical damage and bow skills like lethal arrow, poison injection and acid spray will be used on almost all Stam builds.
    dooderrr
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  • Helluin
    Helluin
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    You forgot:
    • NB - Assasin's Will (Grim Focus) but it's a skill on activation good for both magicka and stamina builds since its damage is based on max stat, like an ultimate, but it deals magic damage.
      With this one, probably the most logical solution would be change into physical, poison or disease damage only the Assassin's Will of Relenteless Focus (stamina recovery morph) but it's quite debatable.
    • DK - stamina flame damage morphs are in the same situation
    • Bow - Schorched Earth deals flame damage

    For Ultimates instead the situation is more tricky.
    Is it a design's choice or a sort of relic of game before 1.5 without a changement accordingly?
    Probably it would be easier and better for diversification to make Ultimates buffed by a specific new star in Champion System or by your highest one between Mighty and Elemental Expert.
    Edited by Helluin on February 6, 2016 2:37PM
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  • Strider_Roshin
    Strider_Roshin
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    Relentless Focus should cause poison or disease damage, killer's blade should cause physical. There should also be a physical Damage morph of death stroke, and radial sweep.

    How about giving stamina builds some love for a change?
  • Takllin
    Takllin
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    Yeah I think Ultimates are a bit harder to figure out which they should be, but if an ability is Stamina, it should be of a damage type that correlates with the CP tree that it belongs to.

    There was so much QQ about Magic damage being in the Stamina tree, but ZOS and the QQers forgot that there are Stamina abilities and builds that relied on this too.

    +1 for the idea.
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  • Miwerton
    Miwerton
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    Woudl also be good if the various skills and ultis scaled of different damage types depending on what is highest of stamina or magicka.

    Example: if magicka is highest assisins will will do ice damage ( come on ice is the neglected destrution element), and poison if stamina is highest, if stamina is highest Burning light from templars aedric spear line should do disease or poison damage (Most likely what @Maseri what was reffing to with biting jabs and binding javelin), Veil of blades should do physical damage if stamina is highest and magicka or possibly ice if magicka, etc etc for the ultis.

    And of course have figthers guild line actually do physical damages, its time to get rid of the magicka laced damage that remains from 1.5
  • Khamira
    Khamira
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    I think that Eternal Hunt rune should deal poison damage, since it's green. Other abilities should simply switch from magic to phisical damage, unless it's possible/logical to make them poison/disease.

    So, magicka skill - magic damage, stamina skill - physical damage.

    The same could apply to ultimates. Higher stat (weapon or spell dmg) should determine if skill deals magic or phisical damage.

    Other skills that deal CERTAIN type of damage, in example you're spitting fire or throw electric bolts at enemies - should stay as they are.

    So yeah, jumping on someone is phisical (DK wings ultimate).
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  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    You can now mitigate physical damage. It's now unfair how many classes only need to go into one cp tree to increase their main source of damage.

    After the recent nerf's to nightblade with cloak and magelight... this would help out a lot and we could adjust to the change's.

    Change thing's to one of the damage type's that are in the physical damage tree to balance thing's out. I agree with the OP. Except fighter's guild should remain magic damage.


    To note, no cp campaign's will fix this problem.

    Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on February 6, 2016 11:00PM
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  • Miwerton
    Miwerton
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    What is also sadly forgotten is that magicka build gets extra damage from theyre ultis, not only from the new cp constaletion but also due to the fact magick damage is gonna do more damage thanx to theyre spell penetration, which can be increased more with nirnhoned weapons.

    Stam builds dont have that, the sharpened mace bug is fixed so it shouldnt be a foul to have armor penetration on the ultimates,stam class abilities and fighters guild abilities.
  • Maseri
    Maseri
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    Now that we have some love here (which is great, thank you ZoS!) per the latest PTS:
    Item Sets
    Eternal Hunt: The rune created by this item set now deals Poison Damage instead of Magic Damage.

    Let's continue this train of thought, especially given @Wrobel comments on his last appearance on ESO live as well regarding swapping Stam morphs of the DK trees to be aligned with Stamina damage types (specifically Burning Breath into a cloud of Poison damage instead of Fire), it seems like there is real potential to get these looked at in U10 with the Dark Brotherhood release. (If that DK change for Poison damage does go through, I'm not sure how they'll adjust the surrounding DK skill lines to align but I believe that is out of scope for this thread).

    Thanks for the feedback everyone here as well, here's an updated list now. I've included Wrobel's idea about Stam DK changes for tracking since those fit as well:
    Killer's Blade -> Now does Physical Damage
    Power Extraction -> Now Physical (or Disease?) Damage
    Binding Javelin -> Now does Physical damage
    Biting Jabs -> Now does Physical Damage
    Silver Bolts and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage only
    Turn Undead -> Now does Physical Damage
    Expert Hunter and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage
    Trap Beast and both morphs -> Now does Physical Damage
    Inner Beast -> Now does Physical and Disease synergy
    Scorched Earth -> Now does Poison Damage (where Fire was previously. This also fits our Poison theme in the Bow skill line.)
    *Burning Breath -> Now does Poison damage
    *Unyielding Flame -> Now does Poison damage
    Relentless Focus -> Assassin's Will now does Physical damage for this morph. (This differs from other skills above as this is a Magicka ability.)

    * = Special case. These will need some polishing, renaming and potential surrounding changes to DK skill lines if these do happen.

    Thundering Presence with its Stamina cost but Shock Damage remains an outlier. It could be changed as part of some love for Stam Sorc is the only way I see a change there. I don't think it's a large issue at the moment to be honest but I admittedly don't run a Stam Sorc either.

    I know Ultimates are a sticky issue given that both Magicka and Stamina users pull from the same pool of options. FWIW, Wrobel did also mention (in the same ESO live as Stam DK ideas) we could have Ultimates coming for the Weapon skill lines in U10 which sounds awesome and certainly helps, though I would like to see some Stam-friendlier options in the other trees. Here are some overall ideas from earlier comments:

    - Ultimates which deal Magic damage now do either Magic or Physical damage, depending on whether your Weapon Damage or Spell Damage is higher. (This change is less drastic but perhaps harder on the coding side.)
    - Change specific Ultimates to do Physical/Disease/Poison instead of Magic or their current damage type. (This change sounds more straightforward but it may force Magicka builds to change their slotted Ultimates. What Ultimates should these be?)

    Thoughts?
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    Eternal Hunt would make so much more sense if, instead of a magic rune, it left behind a bear trap that did physical damage.
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  • Refuse2GrowUp
    Refuse2GrowUp
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    I agree with most of this.

    Whereas combining Poison and Disease dmg with Mighty will effect some builds (can't wait to try Werewolf now lol), I do agree there are still too many stamina skills that are magic dmg when there is no need for them to be.

    Most of your suggestions are on point. However, I do not think Fighters Guild skills should go physical. Skills like Evil/Camo Hunter and Silver Shards hit more than hard enough as is. And considering they are drawing a sort of magical energy to hit deadra/undead, it makes sense to leave them magic dmg. Agree with the rest tho.
    Edited by Refuse2GrowUp on February 21, 2016 7:12PM
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  • Maseri
    Maseri
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    I agree with most of this.

    Whereas combining Poison and Disease dmg with Mighty will effect some builds (can't wait to try Werewolf now lol), I do agree there are still too many stamina skills that are magic dmg when there is no need for them to be.

    Most of your suggestions are on point. However, I do not think Fighters Guild skills should go physical. Skills like Evil/Camo Hunter and Silver Shards hit more than hard enough as is. And considering they are drawing a sort of magical energy to hit deadra/undead, it makes sense to leave them magic dmg. Agree with the rest tho.

    Hmm, that's a fair point. I'd argue there's a middle ground though for the Fighter's Guild line though, why not have the base ability do Physical (like Trap Beast's trap damage for example) but have the damage specific to undead/daedric/werewolf foes do Magic damage? I'd think that'd be best of both worlds and make some sense given the abilities.
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