I'm not sure what the AvA rank fuss is about...

pretzl · February 2016

For months on end PvPers have been complaining about 100 man zergs destroying everything in their path in the campaigns, insane lag due to the sheer amount of players etc. etc.
This change to the AP needed to get these skills are more than likely going to draw the *** zergs away from PvP... Everyone knows PvEers always zerg to gain AP because it's the only way they can. Not trying to be mean here or poke at the PvE-bear (I'm a PvE'er myself, mind you), but I for one will most likely never go into Cyro again after this. I'll have Proxy, vigor and caltrops on all the chars I want to have it on. No reason for me to go back!
I refuse to believe I'm alone in this.

Actual PvPers do smallscale groups or solo play, PvEers zerg.
Atm the AvA rank changes are alittle huge, but overall it's a very good way to go in order to clean up Cyro alittle and "separate" the two sides again.
Again, I refuse to believe I'm alone in this.

DisgracefulMind · February 2016

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

pretzl · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

That I can easily agree on.
I see how they can be ridicolously OP in Cyro. I for one couldn't care less about them, but then again that's because they only work in Cyro

Give me easy skills and I'm happy!

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

DisgracefulMind · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

TheValkyn · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

Explain how it's "unhealthy".

DisgracefulMind · February 2016

TheValkyn wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

Explain how it's "unhealthy".

Have you seen how fast a Templar with Kag's and Battle Res II can get someone back up? Instant. It's already a problem as there is no Res Sickness in ESO, and is already a heavily complained about problem in PvP.
As for Combat Frenzy, I can see this getting out of hand too, since Meteor will definitely be the next spam ultimate for large groups, seeing a it's not able to be reflected now. That spam will increase.

I just, honestly, do not think it's a good thing for these passives to be given out so quickly. It's an extreme 90% reduction to the previous requirements.

TheValkyn · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

Explain how it's "unhealthy".

Have you seen how fast a Templar with Kag's and Battle Res II can get someone back up? Instant. It's already a problem as there is no Res Sickness in ESO, and is already a heavily complained about problem in PvP.
As for Combat Frenzy, I can see this getting out of hand too, since Meteor will definitely be the next spam ultimate for large groups, seeing a it's not able to be reflected now. That spam will increase.

I just, honestly, do not think it's a good thing for these passives to be given out so quickly. It's an extreme 90% reduction to the previous requirements.

I'd say most of the PvP population on PC has these passives on at least 2 or 3 characters. This will lower the catch up for newer players which is important for competitive PvP. The only harm this does is hurts the feelings of those players that worked hard to get A/S rank on many characters.

Hooch_is_Crazy · February 2016

My 2 cents, is Nerf the passives, keep the proposed amount of AP the way it is. Its a pretty reasonable compromise.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

Explain how it's "unhealthy".

Have you seen how fast a Templar with Kag's and Battle Res II can get someone back up? Instant. It's already a problem as there is no Res Sickness in ESO, and is already a heavily complained about problem in PvP.
As for Combat Frenzy, I can see this getting out of hand too, since Meteor will definitely be the next spam ultimate for large groups, seeing a it's not able to be reflected now. That spam will increase.

I just, honestly, do not think it's a good thing for these passives to be given out so quickly. It's an extreme 90% reduction to the previous requirements.

Well, I think that in pvp everyone should be on equal footing. That's why I support no-cp campaign and easily obtanable ap ranks.

Enodoc · February 2016

Drop in on one of the other threads to see the arguments, then maybe you'll see what "all the fuss is about"

(eg, this one). But to summarise, while a lot of people agree that reducing the requirements for the skill lines is a good idea, many think that the magnitude by which they have been reduced is excessive, and trivialises the skill line progression.

Saturn · February 2016

I am actually quite happy with this change, since I have a lot of characters and don't want to grind PvP too much to obtain some of the good skills.

The combat ress passive has always been pretty ridiculous when coupled with kagrenac's and a templar, let us hope they give it a well needed nerf so we don't have ress trains going as soon at TG hits live.

Also, I think the "fuss" you are wondering about is people being upset they have wasted a lot of time getting something that other people will now be able to get super quickly.

pretzl · February 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Drop in on one of the other threads to see the arguments, then maybe you'll see what "all the fuss is about" (eg, this one). But to summarise, while a lot of people agree that reducing the requirements for the skill lines is a good idea, many think that the magnitude by which they have been reduced is excessive, and trivialises the skill line progression.

I've read most of the threads from cover to cover, but I still don't see what the QQ is about...
Sure, this trivializes some peoples achievments so far in the game, but this offers a more level playingfield in a huge way. PvP will be more about skill thna anything now.
In addition, PvE'ers will abandon their zerging for proxy/caltrops/vigor given they'll have it by a long shot. And even getting it on a new char will take less than a week even for them. I'm no good PvPer so this is a welcomed change, although I agree the magnitude of the change is rather excessive.
I still don't get why people are QQing so hard. It's a huge change, but it'll quiet complaints from both sides.

Enodoc · February 2016

Reducing is good, but this is too much. Compare it to Fighters Guild:

You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

nooblybear · February 2016

To be fair, players are considerably less plentiful and grindable than 4272 level 47 zombies in Coldharbour.

pretzl · February 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Reducing is good, but this is too much. Compare it to Fighters Guild:

You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

I'd argue that's a bit of an incomparable grind...
Killing some zombies who are stacked in groups of 3-5+ is relatively easy. Can be done in a night if you so please. Griding from 1 to Proxy would take you months in the current system on the Live server. Even in the current PTS system, it'll take your above-average PvE'er around a week to get it. It's a way longer grind, but I agree it's still unreasonably low.
Undaunted atleast takes a few days given you need to do some dailies in order to achieve rank 9.
I'm all for lowering the requirement of the AvA skills themselves all while keeping the passives as hard to obtain as they currently are (yes, expanding upon the AvA skill system alittle more) and reducing the XP needed for lvling Undaunted to it's maximum. It'll please every player to a certain extent.

Regardless, I still don't see what the fuss is about

People aren't seeing both sides of the result here. Every PvPer seems to think "omfg, noob zergs with proxy deto and battle rez II...". With this huge change, noob zergs will be a thing of the past. Not that many people will need to farm for AvA skills so they'll end up in small-scale or solo play. I believe this change really will remove most of the current zerging-issues.

KenaPKK · February 2016

This is the first reasonable thread I've seen about this issue. The solution is simple.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Lower the AvA rank needed to acquire PvP skills, but keep the passives the same as they are on live. Perfect fit.

Leandor · February 2016

As I said in one of the other threads on this topic, the main problem is that these passives will now affect BWB, a campaign they deliberately changed CP effects on to curb power creep.

Add a second requirement to these passives, making them available only once you reach V1 irrespective of assault/support rank gained before.

ssewallb14_ESO · February 2016

Uphill through the snow syndrome. Some people believe that if they had to work hard for something, others should have to work hard for it too, regardless of whether or not the difficulty was in any way beneficial.

Motivating players to do content they don't enjoy to obtain rewards is motivating them to find the easiest and most efficient way for them to get the reward. Certain zerg groups that spend 3/4 of their time resource farming, IC zergs, and the daily activities on the Alessia bridge are good examples. Death porting through darkshade caverns, and various dungeon exploits (planar inhibitor pet taunt, dispelling Kena shock spear, too many to list) are also examples. Anything that keeps players out of content they don't actually want to play can only be a good thing for both parties involved.

Destyran · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

When only a few groups of long-time players have this advantage, its even more unfair.
Maybe these passives should be rebalanced.

I will agree and say that we should obtain those passives quicker, but not as fast as they have made them on the PTS. When Combat Frenzy II and Battle Res II are obtainable by a Corporal, that's TOO FAST. That will be incredibly unhealthy for PvP. 670k AP is far too little for those passives.

Why?? Sounds like you are a elitist?? Who cares everyone will still have fun whille the people who grinded 22 months will be raging that everyone has their power. Its not vanilla now new season new rules. Adapt.

Mac10murda · February 2016

I can't wait to have proxy on my alts , I don't mind people having the skills unlocked that way the playing fields is leveled

NovaShadow · February 2016

I don't mind that it's lowered. I just think the amount it's been lowered needs tweaking.

You've gotta grind for the guild skill lines, alliance war should be a grind also.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Lower it sure, 90% reduction? Just no.

Lower it by 20-30%, ok thats fine.

But assault 10 in 670k ap, seriously? I could be assault 10 before i leave BWB....

Everyone going to spam meteor and with the ult regen passive theres going to be a lot of meteors.

Not sure why pve needs magicka det or anything else so quickly, vigor i can understand, caltraps sure i guess, but these two don't need to much time as it is.

Reduce it by 30% or even 40% if need be, should lessen the time by quite a bit if you combine it with the new AP per kill adjustments.

Currently 320k~ for vigor, 800k~ for caltraps and 1.6m for magicka det, the higher passives are very strong and should be unlocked if you actually put the months of time needed to unlock them.

With a 30% reduction is would be 230k for vigor, 560k for caltraps and 1.12m for det. Now don't forget the base ap per kill has been doubled. So you get 1750~ per kill. The fact theres quite a few zerg killing skills and ap in a zerg is reduced should reduce zergs by a bit (hopefully) and the fact groups of 4-5 will be getting the highest ap should make it a lot easier to run around with a few friends and gain ap pretty easily.

Should take people maybe 10 hours as most (even the most casual pve payers should hit this much with the ap boost changed) to unlock vigor.

They could also increase the ap gained from bounty quests to like 5k or such if they needed too. People should be able to earn an easy 20k ap a day. Just off the kill players.

blabafat · February 2016

@TheValkyn I'd have to disagree. I highly doubt that MOST of the pvp population has 2-3 characters with a minimum of alliance rank 24.

Recremen · February 2016

I can totes see the case for not wanting people to get the passives easily, but I fdon't have much of a problem opening up the skills to more people. Only thing it might hurt is BWB, I don't really know how the low level affects the lack of AoE there.

smacx250 · February 2016

pretzl wrote: »

... this offers a more level playingfield in a huge way ...
I still don't get why people are QQing so hard. It's a huge change, but it'll quiet complaints from both sides.

You answered your own question right there - those that worked for the advantage want to preserve it, and not loose it in a give-away.

Jura23 · February 2016

I don't care personally. I care about my own playing, not my concern what other ppl have or don't have unlocked.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

If you use those passives, you can hardly blame anybody for doing the same haha.

acw37162 · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Who cares about the skills, give them to everyone easy, what does it matter? It's the passives that matter. There shouldn't be battle rez II rezzers everywhere! Combat frenzy II gives a ton of ultimate, think of how that will end up. /:

OMG, not more ultimate, that's game breaking news.