Don't lower the AP required to level Assault and Support skill lines

notimetocare · February 2016

"I spent months doing this, make all the new people do the same because I had to" This is the logic of most people here >.>
Many more casual people play MMOs. You chase them off with giant grinds for near mandatory skills and passives.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Because you're cheapening it. Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long, so my only assumption is you're catering to all the PVE whiners. Why should their opinions reflect what you do with Alliance war?
You're making PVP less of an achievement, and if this sticks, I expect you to lower the experience needed for the Undaunted skill line so we can obtain that faster too.

That argument would hold more weight if PvEers hadn't been dragged kicking and screaming into the Alliance War by the Tel Var grind. The problem is that even though we are participating in the War by providing PvPers with target practice and AP, we're getting barely ANYTHING in return. I'm lucky if I average 2000 AP per DAY in the IC sewers.

Your argument also falls flat when you see that hardly anyone can complete vMA on a Stamina build without liberal use of Vigor. It's just plain wrong that PvE Stamina builds are barred from the game's only endgame content for solo players because they haven't had a year in Cyrodiil to grind AP.

This...thanks for writing this

BEZDNA · February 2016

OMG i love these change so much! Thanks god, Zenimax! Now i can get detonations on all my 8 chars!!!!

Vaoh · February 2016

I'm fine with AP being made easier to get and less AP for ranks, but that really depends on how much easier. And another thing...

Battle Resurrection Passive
If made easy to get, I could see it helping PUGs, but would destroy PvP without resurrection sickness. Not a good idea.

Magicka Detonation --> Main issue
It took a long time and hard work for me to get Magicka Det. It truly felt like I accomplished something remarkable on ESO when "Assault/Support Rank 7" showed up on my screen. I don't want this skill to be earnable so easily! Using Proxy Det in PvE raises my DPS and is pretty unique. I would absolutely HATE for everyone to have access to this powerful skill ESPECIALLY WITH RECENT BUFFS. Let this be the sole hard-to-obtain skill in the game if you have to change these skill lines.

I'd be fine with it taking less AP to level these skill lines if Magicka Detonation (along with the resurrection passive) were raised to rank 10 or whatever as long as it takes the same amount of time (1.6m AP) as it does in live. This skill MUST require a massive amount of effort and dedication to obtain. Vigor can be pushed lower so pure PvE players don't have to even try. That's okay since it's unfair that this skill is vital for just about any Stamina build now.

TLDR: Make Rank 10 take 1.6m AP - 2.0m AP to unlock. Leave Magicka Det at 1.6m AP (the new max rank AP amount) to obtain, along with the resurrection passive.

Vaoh · February 2016

@infraction2008b16_ESO I do both PvP and PvE evenly, but over the last month have played much more PvE.

For PvPers, Rank 9 Undaunted (Rank 5 means nothing for Undaunted) is all that matters. I see this as being pretty easy to achieve, but I also see Rank 5 in Assault/Support being easy as well. I thought it was well balanced before.

Want a super powerful skill like Caltrops, Barrier or Magicka Det? Invest a ton of time into it. Vigor and Undaunted Mettle are both NEEDED skills, requiring a couple weeks to get if going at a normal pace. It can all be achieved from V1-V16 easily. The other PvP skills should be difficult to get, as they're outright great.

Vaoh · February 2016

@Alucardo Does the PTS show exactly how much AP is required now for each Assault/Support rank and their skills?

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

Doncellius wrote: »

I'm fine with AP being made easier to get and less AP for ranks, but that really depends on how much easier. And another thing...

Battle Resurrection Passive
If made easy to get, I could see it helping PUGs, but would destroy PvP without resurrection sickness. Not a good idea.

Magicka Detonation --> Main issue
It took a long time and hard work for me to get Magicka Det. It truly felt like I accomplished something remarkable on ESO when "Assault/Support Rank 7" showed up on my screen. I don't want this skill to be earnable so easily! Using Proxy Det in PvE raises my DPS and is pretty unique. I would absolutely HATE for everyone to have access to this powerful skill ESPECIALLY WITH RECENT BUFFS. Let this be the sole hard-to-obtain skill in the game if you have to change these skill lines.

I'd be fine with it taking less AP to level these skill lines if Magicka Detonation (along with the resurrection passive) were raised to rank 10 or whatever as long as it takes the same amount of time (1.6m AP) as it does in live. This skill MUST require a massive amount of effort and dedication to obtain. Vigor can be pushed lower so pure PvE players don't have to even try. That's okay since it's unfair that this skill is vital for just about any Stamina build now.

TLDR: Make Rank 10 take 1.6m AP - 2.0m AP to unlock. Leave Magicka Det at 1.6m AP (the new max rank AP amount) to obtain, along with the resurrection passive.

Might as well keep it as it is atm, with everyone with some pocket change can buy the best helms in the game without putting in any effort for it. The ones that spent time in the dungeons and earned our divine kena helms etc got a slap to the face there. So I can't say I feel sorry for anyone that felt that it was an accomplishment to get X pvp rank.

Ajaxduo · February 2016

It's okay, it just means the scrubs will be out of your hair sooner

Alucardo · February 2016

Ajaxduo wrote: »

It's okay, it just means the scrubs will be out of your hair sooner

Heh, it also means the 12-24 PVE groups running around the sewers will be running prox det 2 days after entering Cyrodiil

Vaoh · February 2016

@cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO I already got my Heavy Infused Molag Kena Helm and Magicka Det. Both felt like real achievements. I doubt that buying Monster sets that are considered BiS (Molag Kena) will cost 200K AP since this value will probably increase.

This pic comes from another thread http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245393/lets-compromise-on-the-new-pvp-skill-line-progression/p1

You can't be serious that earning Barrier/Caltrops on live is the equivalent of earning 100K AP over RANK 10 on PTS. I can't understand why this issue is always split into a war between PvP and PvE players. Look at the big picture. It's a good change taken too far.

And I thought that only monster shoulders are available at the PTS vendor, right?

altemriel · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Because you're cheapening it. Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long, so my only assumption is you're catering to all the PVE whiners. Why should their opinions reflect what you do with Alliance war?
You're making PVP less of an achievement, and if this sticks, I expect you to lower the experience needed for the Undaunted skill line so we can obtain that faster too.

Well, you know, PVPers get the monster armors from the monster vendor in Cyro, so why not PVEers having easier access to PVP skill line? I am only interrested in Resolving Vigor, so ok for me.

lolo_01b16_ESO · February 2016

I don't like the change. Sure, it will be fun for a few days to run around in Bwb with a lvl 18 nb and blow up everyone with proxy, but I doubt that change will be good for the game. New players will most likely not know how to deal with proxy and thanks to the battle leveling (high stats to compensate for not having strong skills) my proxy will be as strong or even stronger than it is on my v16 nb.

Alucardo · February 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Because you're cheapening it. Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long, so my only assumption is you're catering to all the PVE whiners. Why should their opinions reflect what you do with Alliance war?
You're making PVP less of an achievement, and if this sticks, I expect you to lower the experience needed for the Undaunted skill line so we can obtain that faster too.

Well, you know, PVPers get the monster armors from the monster vendor in Cyro, so why not PVEers having easier access to PVP skill line? I am only interrested in Resolving Vigor, so ok for me.

You're right. I've read a lot of comments, and thought about it a great deal. The fighting between PVP and PVE needs to end. We're both getting what we want and we should leave it there.

helediron · February 2016

I welcome the significant drop. I don't need any PvP ranks, but i've stuck to skill level 5 like last half year. I am mostly playing PvE, and i can think of spending maybe a week or two in Cyro to get the skill line. No more than that. In two weeks i can max undaunted, get a monster set, level up all crafts.

As i am a bad PvP player, i guess i get 20k AP per day. To get the skill line in PTS is still like a month. Hmm, cut it even more XD.

EDIT: 100k gold for monster shoulder, wow, that's candy! I would be grinding that sweet vendor every day from now on, if i didn't already have them. But i am okay with that if i get the skill line.

Alucardo · February 2016

helediron wrote: »

As i am a bad PvP player, i guess i get 20k AP per day. To get the skill line in PTS is still like a month. Hmm, cut it even more XD.

My advice to you, repair walls. No joke. They doubled the AP you get from each repair kit. You could make 20k just from repairs now, easy.

Casdha · February 2016

I'm just gonna copy this here as well

Casdha wrote: »

I think it is funny to see the arguments here about this subject, yet you go to the scaled crafting node page and see same arguments from the other side.

(Person 1) It is not suppose to be easy, it is suppose to require work, If you don't do it this way then you don't deserve the benefit.

(Person 2) I've got three different characters that does this, it is to much work if I have to do it multiple times. It is suppose to be fun, how can it be fun If I have to do something I don't want to do over and over or I have to go through extra effort to do it.

I wonder if folks find it fun to defend against the same arguments that they use?

Edit: The moral of the story is, if you want your characters to do everything on every character it is gonna take extra work and cost to get there regardless how you play.

Edit 2: Oh and if you ask for something to be easier for your style of play don't be surprised when your style of play becomes easier for someone else. (They just nerfed the heck out of how much work it takes to gather VR15/16 mats, seems only fair that they nerf the time it takes to PvP)

Elyu · February 2016

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think this is an amazing change. As someone who is not an elite pvp player, I could get maybe 30k a night. I was looking at months - years to level my alts through the skill line. Now I can pvp for fun rather than focus on max AP/hour. I'll be in pvp because I want to be there not simply to grind AP until my eyes bleed.

^^^^this

Jowrik · February 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

Then give us a decent stamina heal that isn't locked behind pvp.

http://www.esohead.com/skills/38802-rally
Vigor is already super fast to get, it will be crazy with new ap gain. No need to reduce ap needed further more.

No thanks, that's just pushing everyone into the twohanded skilltree & leaving no heal available for anything other then the obligatory 2H+Bow/DW/SnB

I like that they reduced the amount it takes to level up. The only thing a PVP'er would need from the undaunted skilltree is the passive anyway, that's hardly the same thing and is considered min-maxing.

How would a stamina character complete maelstrom arena without a stamina heal?

Draxys wrote: »

Dedricus wrote: »

Then give us a decent stamina heal that isn't locked behind pvp.

My god people, vigor takes what 300k AP? It isn't hard to get that in a couple days, even in a night sometimes if you know what you're doing. If you don't know what you're doing but have half a brain, it might take a week or two? Hardly unfair.

Alot of people are simply unable to play as much as you do, I just unlocked vigor on my main character and it took me over a month of playing to get it (from level 3 to 5!). I'm happy the tools are distributed evenly for everyone now.

Besides, you get a chance to get all monster sets with your AP, so there's your consolation prize

KenaPKK · February 2016

Making Combat Frenzy 2 available to the masses is a half assed attempt at implementing dynamic ultimate generation. The faster resses are going to be horrible for PvP. And giving everyone and their mother proxy and caltrops...oh god this isn't smart. Someone in ZoS really hates PvP and is completely out of touch with the PvP community.

Casdha · February 2016

Arguments I hear around here reminds me of a saying I hear all the time.

What ever is mine is mine, What ever is yours is mine.

Cuyler · February 2016

ArvenAldmeri · February 2016

Faster AP gain is making the game skill-wise more fair (its annoying to be "worse" just because you dont have the detonation burst or the stamina "healing spring").
I seriously dont have time to level up all of my characters in pvp for getting magicka detonation or vigor for them (especially with such a ping there all the time). Right now rally is not working for me and it is the only heal I have on my stamina NB and its pain in the ass to do pvp with it, because I have no way to effectively heal myself (the second heal on rally wont happen 99% of the time).

MikeB · February 2016

People saying AP gains have been lowered to much aren't taking into consideration the queue's to get into PvP, the amount of crashing and re-queueing, the lagfest called PvP, huge class imbalances, etc...All of these things, and more, are more than likely going to make a PvE'er give up on the game since they can't get Vigor on their Stam character or the other amazing PvP abilities that are better than most PvE abilities, especially when it comes to Stam builds. No one wants to grind for months to get these abilities. Yes, months. If you no life Mutagen spam then you could get rank 7 in 1-2 weeks but most people have lives.