How far would you go to support a trade guild?

IrishGirlGamer · February 2016

When is enough enough?

I belong to a trade guild. It's a second generation guild that has been around since release. It's second generation because the original founders decided they could no longer maintain a leadership role in the guild and the leadership changed. I like the guild and support the vision of the original leaders.

I've always supported the guild by participating in drawings and raffles whenever I had the money. With the change of leadership, I actually became more active in supporting the guild because I suspected money was going to be an issue (also I had progressed into the game enough that I had more money). I began providing multiple entries for raffles and drawings, often in the total amount of several thousand gold per week.

Recently, I listed a few items in the guild store. They didn't sell. Normally, I wouldn't worry about it but I knew at least two of the items were priced very competitively, particularly compared to other items in the store. I waited. A few days later, I went in and looked at the listings in the store and noticed, to my surprise, that a lot of the other listings had disappeared (including some items more expensive than mine) but mine were still there. Concerned, I decided to wait a couple of more days, then contact the leader.

The next afternoon, I received a message (everyone in the guild did) from the guild leader saying we had lost our kiosk. (At that point, I suspected people were pulling stuff from the guild store.) In an effort to raise money, a more expensive raffle would take place. I participated but never heard anything about who won. Then I received another message that the leader was sick and another raffle was going to take place. I participated to the amount of $4000 gold but now I'm wondering: am I being too generous about this? I like the guild, I supported the original leaders, and I participated actively in drawings/raffles when I was available (I was out of the country for a bit).

How much should we, as members of a trade guild, reasonably be expected to support the guild? The guild earns money off our sales, but I know that's not enough (for most guilds) to obtain a kiosk. But how much should be reasonably expected to pay per week? And shouldn't there be full disclosure on drawings and contests?

Merkabeh · February 2016

Full disclosure definitely.

As for how much to support, without sentimentality, until it no longer remains profitable enough for you.

myrrrorb14_ESO · February 2016

Good question. I typically give 5k to 10k a week. But this depends on how my sales went for the week. If you are not earning enough from sales to cover that it's probably not worth being in that trade guild. Needless to say it's much more difficult to sell stuff without a kiosk and I wouldn't expect people to donate that much after z few weeks of no store.

Rosveen · February 2016

Yes, full disclosure. We always announced lottery winners in guild chat at the time of drawing and on our website.

As for how far is too far... I'm afraid it's entirely up to you. My approach is perhaps a little unusual, because I don't take anything in the game seriously and that includes gold. It's virtual, who cares if I'm not making any profit? I used to support one of my secondary guilds weekly just because I liked them and wanted to help them, even long after I stopped using their guild store.

My main guild went through a similar rough patch a while ago, so I sympathize with your guild's situation. Once you lose your kiosk spot, it can be difficult to win one back, especially if there's a problem with leadership and activity levels. I know some people stayed with us through that time only out of loyalty and because they had friends in the guild, not for profits. It was a difficult situation for everyone involved. Nowadays we're stable again, so it's definitely possible to move on from that, but nobody can tell you if supporting your guild in the meantime is going to be worth it. I think the fact that you need to ask this question at all might point to the answer.

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

$4000 gold

There are no dollars in Tamriel.

Mettaricana · February 2016

5k is all they will claw out of my severed hand per week

Nova Sky · February 2016

My primary ESO guild is both a social and trade outfit, so I stick with it through thick and thin, the good times and the (non-kiosk) times.

Daraugh · February 2016

One of my two trade guilds went defunct. The leader quit and the officers just drifted away without telling anyone. For a while I considered taking over, but the headaches I heard trade guild leaders talk about...ugh. I ended up leaving. The second one went through a similar period of transition like the OP described. I used to donate, but after the new management came in there was a raffle for a gold Psjiic Ambrosia recipe and they never actually announced a winner, anywhere. The raffle cost for that was quite a bit more than the usual of course, but the "closed doors" of the new leadership...well I post my items, make my gold and that's it. At this point trade guilds aren't that hard to find and gold is so easy to come by it's just not a big deal to me.

baratron · February 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

And shouldn't there be full disclosure on drawings and contests?

I think so.

Some Guilds organise their raffles by mailing gold to a particular player. I am profoundly dubious about such raffles and rarely take part. I much prefer the drawings where you deposit the gold into the Guild Bank so that every member of the Guild can see who donated by going through the bank history tab.

In my Guild, we:

have a Google spreadsheet which lists all the ticket numbers for the current raffle. In fact, it actually contains the full data for every raffle we've ever held.
ensure that the winner of each week's raffle is announced in the MOTD. This remains up for as long as we have space, usually until the next week unless we need to advertise another Guild event or make members aware of an important bug or change to the game.
use a room at rolz.org for choosing the winners each week. This site saves its data for a few weeks so that anyone who wasn't present for the actual draw can go back and check which ticket number won the draw.

We do this because I want absolute transparency. I don't want anyone to feel hard-done-by or cheated out of a prize.

We also run a "free" raffle every so often, in which everyone who has ever donated and is still an active ESO player gets allocated tickets. Another Guild I'm in has a bonus raffle for people who donate money early in the week, which is an incentive for people to remember to donate.

A third Guild never runs raffles, because the GM thinks they're vulgar - and if they don't have enough money to bid on a "good" location that week, they bid elsewhere.

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

How much should we, as members of a trade guild, reasonably be expected to support the guild? The guild earns money off our sales, but I know that's not enough (for most guilds) to obtain a kiosk. But how much should be reasonably expected to pay per week?

Guilds earn 3.5% per sale, which is why a lot of the bigger trading Guilds have a minimum listing policy. I have heard that some Guilds get 7% per sale, but I don't know if this is true or a vicious rumour. Regardless, it's not enough to maintain a kiosk in many cases.

How much is "reasonable" depends on your volume of sales and in-game bank balance. My personal sense of duty would suggest 10% as a minimum, but it depends on what items you sell and how much effort they are to obtain.

I personally donate 7000 gold per week to the second and third Guilds that I mentioned above. The same amount every week, whether I have good sales or bad sales. I give no gold to my own Guild, since they get the benefit of my time - but I also donate prizes every so often, so it likely balances out.

As regards your situation, @IrishGirlGamer, it might be time to look for a new trading Guild. Lost bids happen, illness happens, but if you're starting to think your gold isn't going where it's supposed to be going, then you can't enjoy being a member there.

Florial · February 2016

One of my guilds is going through a similar problem and I've been trying to donate a few thousand a week. The leader seems very nice. I really haven't done much social interaction in any of my guilds so I don't really have any interpersonal relationships with anyone (sad I know). If a trade guild keeps losing its kiosk and people, I would probably look elsewhere. I've seen so many guilds dry up after a bit and I do like to make money in this game.

As for raffles, there should be full disclosure. So easy to put something on MoTD.

Totalitarian · February 2016

A guild I was in was about to get a trader in AD Khenarthi's Roost, but they were outbid.

That being said, I have an initial stock of motifs and recipes to sell and kick the guild off with a start, but after that I would not be able to afford much, due to a lack of time.

PukeyDwarf · February 2016

Really has to come down to either what its worth to you in terms of the income you get or in terms of some sense of being happy with your contributions helping a good guild make progress. But as somebody else said if you're asking the question that probably indicates you've had enough. But there has to be transparency. The moment you have doubts as to where peoples contributions are going then i would suggest you move on. I do not think there should be any GMs who are doing it to make gold (personally rather than for the guild)

Unsent.Soul · February 2016

I was in two trading guilds, great spots. 1 was tamriel trading co. and the other was a sister guild to TCO called elder scrolls exchange. I would always throw money into raffles and donated plenty more than my share. I assume the leader of both just found something better to do, both guilds lost dozens of members after the leader not scalping spots where he normally sets up. Weeks went on, no trader, then he just stopped bidding (you can see this info) while millions of gold just sits in the bank.

I'd message the leader and I'd just get some hush hush response. I assume the leader was just scooping up everybody's donations and just said "screw the 1k members that are in my 2 guilds"

Nothing more has happened with these 2 guilds that were, or are, apparently popular on PC NA server.

It happens, it sucks but nothing many can do about it. I've joined a couple other guilds since then and they aren't advertised as trading guilds but we get stalls and I make my gold.

Sad thing is, there are people like OP and myself willing to help the cause for a bigger picture and people take advantage of it without question or concern.

Acrolas · February 2016

This is why you can't legally run raffles/lotteries in real life, and both are heavily regulated.
Several of the authoritative bodies also monitor social gaming and gambling, and from what I've been told, the various laws may be updated as technology advances to include the licensing of virtual games of chance.

But for now, if somebody's doing something in a game that makes you feel uncomfortable outside the context of the game... just walk away.

Jura23 · February 2016

Usually when the GM sends us a message how poor we are and how everything goes to ****, I go and send 2k. That's usually once per week.

Unsent.Soul · February 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

This is why you can't legally run raffles/lotteries in real life, and both are heavily regulated.
Several of the authoritative bodies also monitor social gaming and gambling, and from what I've been told, the various laws may be updated as technology advances to include the licensing of virtual games of chance.

But for now, if somebody's doing something in a game that makes you feel uncomfortable outside the context of the game... just walk away.

Basically this, I refuse to take part in any raffle or lottery ever again. I'd rather just toss my gold in a guild coffer that I like and that way I don't base anything off of chance.

IrishGirlGamer · February 2016

Rosveen wrote: »

My approach is perhaps a little unusual, because I don't take anything in the game seriously and that includes gold. It's virtual, who cares if I'm not making any profit?

Not so unusual. That's kind of how I handled my approach to trade guilds. I easily paid more money in raffles/drawings than I made in the store. I wanted to support my guild and, on occasion, sell some things.

Rosveen wrote: »

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

$4000 gold

There are no dollars in Tamriel.

Quite true. My bad.

sylviermoone · February 2016

As a leader of an incredibly competitive trade guild, I believe that transparency is absolutely essential. The fact is, really good trading guilds take an exorbitant amount of work to run and maintain, and the sales taxes generated come no where near maintaining the cost of the types of trading locations necessary to attract great sellers.

The best trading guilds don't operate to make a profit; they operate more like a non-profit, where member donations are crucial to the success of the model. It is my belief that transparency plays a huge role in maintaining the kind of member support that is needed to keep a successful trading guild in business.

What kind of support is needed? In the case of my guild, I need each slot of the 500 member guild to generate about 10k weekly. That sort of investment ensures we are able to place competitive bids on our preferred location. Yes, some members generate more, and some members generate less; we've accounted for that in our ranking system, in which an individuals sales, purchases, raffle activity and other donations are broken down to what they *actually* generate for the guild.

That said, guild leaders are human beings. We have long days at work, get up at the buttcrack of dawn to place bids, and many of us surrender our own in game wealth and items to financially support our guilds. We have families and lives outside of the game. Sometimes we need a break, but a good GM of a good guild will make arrangements for their absence.

So, how far should you go to support your guild? As far as you feel is right for the benefit you get from it. And when you no longer feel that it's mutually beneficial, it's probably time to move on.

Elder_III · February 2016

baratron wrote: »

Guilds earn 3.5% per sale, which is why a lot of the bigger trading Guilds have a minimum listing policy. I have heard that some Guilds get 7% per sale, but I don't know if this is true or a vicious rumour. Regardless, it's not enough to maintain a kiosk in many cases.

.

When listing an item on a Guild Store it says that there is a Listing Fee (which ZoS gets) and a House Cut @7%. However of that 7% House Cut the Guild only gets 3.5% and the other 3.5% disappears into the void (for reasons unknown). This can be verified by checking the Guild Sales Log and seeing the amount of gold the Guild earned on any individual sale. Frankly for the absolutely integral part that Trade Guilds have in the ESO Economy this is a pitiful amount.

For Prime (but not BEST) locations you can easily bid 1,000,000 gold (and not always win). To put that simply, with a mere 3.5% of the Sales amount each member needs to sell over 50,000 gold in items each week for the Guild to break even. Obviously the vast majority of players don't sell anywhere near that amount so Raffles are a necessity.

magnusthorek · February 2016

I'm member of a few guilds, some for consideration, some for personal interest and some for... I don't really know why I joined XD.

For one of these guilds I used to participate actively in raffles. Except for guild admins, I was one of the top donors, weekly.

Not that I cared but, coincidentally or not, I used to win something in every raffle. Sometimes good and profitable stuff, sometimes not and sometimes just enough to cover what I'd donated.

Suddenly, be it by MM data manipulation or just because of a bankrupt economy, most of my trader usage was stagnate.

Then the period of the day of the raffles changed and I couldn't be online anymore.

From this time and on I never won anything, not even a consolation prize. I gave it a shot and kept donating the same amount and week after week all I was selling was useless and cheap stuff, which slowed down my achievements perversion (namely motifs) and was incompatible with the moderately high amount I was, somehow, investing without return.

My... lack of luck kept the same for weeks and then I had an epiphany and I stopped donating at all.

Long story short, you should support your guild as much as your guild supports you or as much as you really want despite everything bad happening to you.

I need money for the reason I explained and some other things. If the biggest help, the trader, is not coming, it might sound selfish of me, but I won't help either.

Nothing personal, it's just business.

Jayne_Doe · February 2016

Elder_III wrote: »

When listing an item on a Guild Store it says that there is a Listing Fee (which ZoS gets)

Actually, I believe that you get the listing fee back if the item sells.

EQBallzz · February 2016

Nostalgia and attachment aside I think it's best to set limits because IMO the whole raffle thing has gotten way out of hand. I know to some degree it's required but some guilds are practically spamming raffle info and "sales" for raffle tickets to the point of absurdity. It's easy to get carried away.

One thing you can do if you use Master Merchant is to wait until the end of the week (raffles usually happen on Sunday) and use the stats window for each guild to see how much gold you made for the week. Come up with a % of your sales you feel comfortable contributing towards raffles and then just purchase raffles based on that %. If you sold 30k for the week and you want to contribute 20% towards guild funds that would be 6k to spend on raffle tickets (6 tickets @ 1k each).

Obviously, you can adjust this amount up or down if you make a lot of sales or very few sales or in special circumstances like when you lose a kiosk and maybe there is a need to generate more guild funds. At least this way you are not operating in the red most of the time. If you can't operate outside of the red it might be time for a new trade guild.

Moonshadow66 · February 2016

I don't know what's "reasonable", but I used to put 25k per week into guild raffles (5k per guild). It became 20k per week since during the last months I always see the exact same few people winning the raffle (even multiple prices, every single time the same people!), so I stopped supporting it, it's that easy. As soon as I find a better guild, I'm outta there. However, I can afford 20k a week for raffles in the other 4 guilds, so to me it's reasonable, these guilds are fine

EQBallzz · February 2016

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

I don't know what's "reasonable", but I used to put 25k per week into guild raffles (5k per guild). It became 20k per week since during the last months I always see the exact same few people winning the raffle (even multiple prices, every single time the same people!), so I stopped supporting it, it's that easy. As soon as I find a better guild, I'm outta there. However, I can afford 20k a week for raffles in the other 4 guilds, so to me it's reasonable, these guilds are fine

I agree. This whole raffle business is ripe for scamming. I hate to be the cynic (actually, no I don't) but this kind of environment just leads to bad behavior eventually. I hope I'm completely wrong but it really wouldn't surprise me if half of these raffles were rigged or otherwise bogus in some way. Who has the time or desire to do investigations on the legitimacy of 4 or 5 raffles per week? I mean come on..it's basically a ZOS sanctioned "event" for huge guilds to send people gold in game. It's really a terrible, terrible idea and it's ZOS's own creation.

demendred · February 2016

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Wreuntzylla · February 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

When is enough enough?

I belong to a trade guild. It's a second generation guild that has been around since release. It's second generation because the original founders decided they could no longer maintain a leadership role in the guild and the leadership changed. I like the guild and support the vision of the original leaders.

I've always supported the guild by participating in drawings and raffles whenever I had the money. With the change of leadership, I actually became more active in supporting the guild because I suspected money was going to be an issue (also I had progressed into the game enough that I had more money). I began providing multiple entries for raffles and drawings, often in the total amount of several thousand gold per week.

Recently, I listed a few items in the guild store. They didn't sell. Normally, I wouldn't worry about it but I knew at least two of the items were priced very competitively, particularly compared to other items in the store. I waited. A few days later, I went in and looked at the listings in the store and noticed, to my surprise, that a lot of the other listings had disappeared (including some items more expensive than mine) but mine were still there. Concerned, I decided to wait a couple of more days, then contact the leader.

The next afternoon, I received a message (everyone in the guild did) from the guild leader saying we had lost our kiosk. (At that point, I suspected people were pulling stuff from the guild store.) In an effort to raise money, a more expensive raffle would take place. I participated but never heard anything about who won. Then I received another message that the leader was sick and another raffle was going to take place. I participated to the amount of $4000 gold but now I'm wondering: am I being too generous about this? I like the guild, I supported the original leaders, and I participated actively in drawings/raffles when I was available (I was out of the country for a bit).

How much should we, as members of a trade guild, reasonably be expected to support the guild? The guild earns money off our sales, but I know that's not enough (for most guilds) to obtain a kiosk. But how much should be reasonably expected to pay per week? And shouldn't there be full disclosure on drawings and contests?

All of it!!! Guild pride!

Btw, have 5 openings in my trade guild, pst with bank balance.

Thelon · February 2016

EQBallzz wrote: »

I agree. This whole raffle business is ripe for scamming. I hate to be the cynic (actually, no I don't) but this kind of environment just leads to bad behavior eventually. I hope I'm completely wrong but it really wouldn't surprise me if half of these raffles were rigged or otherwise bogus in some way.

demendred wrote: »

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Fear Mongering Increased to Rank III

wolfydog · February 2016

Trade guilds are always kicking people and recruiting. I cant speak for all 3 factions, but on Ebonheart Pact basically on any given night I could go to Mournhold and join one of the trade guilds there. I also see guild recruitments messages for many other trading guilds just as I am out adventuring. If your current trade guild is falling apart or you think shenanigans are afoot with raffle money and such, I would just move on.

EQBallzz · February 2016

Thelon wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I agree. This whole raffle business is ripe for scamming. I hate to be the cynic (actually, no I don't) but this kind of environment just leads to bad behavior eventually. I hope I'm completely wrong but it really wouldn't surprise me if half of these raffles were rigged or otherwise bogus in some way.

demendred wrote: »

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Fear Mongering Increased to Rank III

If you think that is fear mongering you're either naive or haven't played many MMOs . Give people the opportunity and some will take advantage. Just search for all the threads on these very forums where people are pleading for more guild tools like guild bank tabs with permissions because in the current system of all or nothing access guild banks get cleaned out by unscrupulous members. There are also many threads about guild leaders ripping off members. If you think people aren't abusing this raffle system by either skimming gold for themselves or outright ripping people off in various ways you aren't thinking clearly.

I'm sure most operate with integrity but that doesn't mean there isn't a minority of scammers/cheats and because this works outside the game mechanics it's impossible to have true transparency so nobody really knows what is going on behind the scenes.

sylviermoone · February 2016

EQBallzz wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I agree. This whole raffle business is ripe for scamming. I hate to be the cynic (actually, no I don't) but this kind of environment just leads to bad behavior eventually. I hope I'm completely wrong but it really wouldn't surprise me if half of these raffles were rigged or otherwise bogus in some way.

demendred wrote: »

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Fear Mongering Increased to Rank III

If you think that is fear mongering you're either naive or haven't played many MMOs . Give people the opportunity and some will take advantage. Just search for all the threads on these very forums where people are pleading for more guild tools like guild bank tabs with permissions because in the current system of all or nothing access guild banks get cleaned out by unscrupulous members. There are also many threads about guild leaders ripping off members. If you think people aren't abusing this raffle system by either skimming gold for themselves or outright ripping people off in various ways you aren't thinking clearly.

I'm sure most operate with integrity but that doesn't mean there isn't a minority of scammers/cheats and because this works outside the game mechanics it's impossible to have true transparency so nobody really knows what is going on behind the scenes.

It's absolutely possible to have transparency regarding raffles:
1) ticket purchases deposited directly to guild bank (allows members to view deposit history)
2) deposits compiled to Google spreadsheet, to have ticket numbers assigned (spreadsheet available for view by ALL members)
3) Roll in a public rolling room such as Rolz.org, with non-officer members in attendance.
4) Post winning ticket numbers, again viewable by ALL members.

failkiwib16_ESO · February 2016

If the guild is not profitable for you to be in, leave it.

It's a trading guild, you owe them nothing other than selling, while you're in it. Loyalty and gold aren't mutually exclusive, but it's a rare happening

I've been in many trading guilds. Some obviously did shady things to fiddle with Master Merchant addon prices, while others were completely honest toward their members.

I still donated 10k-50k a week to all my trading guilds, because they actually helped me achieve earning gold. As for the rafles etc. I couldn't care less. I donated there, to show appreciation for my high sales, and quit those trading guilds when I no longer had the need to sell that much.

I've also been in trading guilds that freshly had started up, and the leadership asked everyone for donations - just to go offline and not return. It's the reason why I only join well established trading guilds. I am simply tired of lack of dedication to the game from Guildmasters and officers.

nbksaske · February 2016

im in a guild that asks for donations but not required, its my hard earned gold,not giving 5k to some random guild who probably skims off the top.... id be paranoid lol i sell to friends and guild members. its enough for me