puncturing sweep thread, as requested by Gina

zornyan · December 2015

Right as gina mentioned in another thread they can't have too many issues loaded up in one thread, they've confirmed toppling charge bug, so now let's focus on puncturing sweeps.

this thread is to discuss puncturing sweeps and biting jabs as being bugged only. Please don't mention other issues and clog the thread guys, we've got their attention let's keep it that way.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Feel free to add tags guy.

Right the issues with the skill are specifically.

As stated in the tooltip the nearest enemy has a bonus of 140% damage applied (or 2.4x) for each jab hit. Unfortunately this doesn't happen when the enemy is using any kind of damage shield.

Example

My tooltip stats 1k per jab, I go against someone in pvp with 0 armor (for arguments sake) it should do 2.4k damage per jab, and it does.

But the second they apply any kind of shield, be it hardened ward, healing ward, annulment etc it doesn't get the bonus damage.

So against a shield I should still be doing 2.4k per hit, but instead it does the base value of 1k per hit.

SECONDLY

The final jab, or fourth jab ad it were, often does 0 damage and just applies the knockback, it hits, but for some reason doesn't apply any damage what so ever, this is regardless of shield or no shield, and I've seen it happen in pvp alot, or rarely in pve. For some reason in pvp jabs also misses ALOT , I've got footage on my ps4 of a player standing directly in front of me (approx 2 meters) standing still with me casting jabs and on several occasions none of the jabs landed at all, this was done as a test and the player was standing in correct range and not using any skills.

FINALLY

@ZOS_GinaBruno many many many of us (if not all) have been begging for the knockback to either be improved upon, changed to a soft CC or just plainly removed, it is actually a bad thing for us, in pve it does nothing, it's useless, in pvp it is terrible since it gives players CC immunity, for something that doesn't last for more than .5 of a second, yet other skills such as wrecking blow have much much longer CC .

Please we would love it to have a proper CC effect that actually stuns and requires breaking free, or if at the minimum changed to a soft CC so it doesn't prevent us using our other CC skills, even worst case just remove it, it would be far more beneficial to be able to use my other CC skills then, all of us would like one of these cbanges.

For some reason when a player has a shield up it doesn't count them as the nearest enemy, maybe because it counters the PERSON as the nearest enemy, but you're not hitting them are you? You're hitting their shield, which has a seperate set of resistances, and it's own health bar.

If anybody has a video link to show proof this would be great, I'd not anyone on PC EU that would be willing to have an AD or EP come meet me somewhere so I can record footage when they use a shield that would be great.

AfkNinja · December 2015

Would love love love the .5 sec KB changed to a 1 second bind and snare. Also on biting jabs idk if the +crit is strong enough to match Puncturing Sweeps 40% heal. You might wanna consider changing it from Major Savagery to +critical damage?

Edit: healing on Sweeps is broken vs Shields too.

zornyan · December 2015

AfkNinja wrote: »

Would love love love the .5 sec KB changed to a 1 second bind and snare. Also on biting jabs idk if the +crit is strong enough to match Puncturing Sweeps 40% heal. You might wanna consider changing it from Major Savagery to +critical damage?

Edit: healing on Sweeps is broken vs Shields too.

Completly agree, I'd be happy if it was a soft CC as compromise so it didn't stop CC from being used, I've actually had people moan at templars for using jabs as it prevents proper CC from allies like mass hysteria etc.

It should be a soft CC like bash frl. 1hs line, it'd so pathetic i can't see how it's a CC .

Agree on jabs, every stam build worth their while (especially stam temp due to lack of sustain compared to others) will have camo/Evil hunter slotted.

I'd like a minor beserk+8 damage personally, just like NB grim focus, or maybe 30-40%healing just like sweeps? Why can't they be equal just scale off different stats? Sweeps already hits harder.

Asayre · December 2015

I have not been able to duplicate the problem with puncturing strikes (or either morph) with shields. This is a screenshot of my combat log on the PTS

As you can see I do the same amount of damage whether or not the target has a shield activated. The target's resistance is 0. I tried it with Igneous Shield, Annulment and Barrier.

I'll try to do a similar test on Live but at the moment I don't see the problem with puncturing sweeps and shields.

Dracane · December 2015

Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs is the number 1 abilities Templars have to rely on for damage. It makes you vulnerable to everything while you channel it and it requires melee range. Unlike Wrecking blow, it does not add a deadly CC, but only a wanna-be CC that gives the target free immunity.

I think this CC should be removed, but the damage increased alot, so that's higher than Wrecking blow for example. Because it only deals damage and does not provide a free Major Empower buff after each hit.
I know I shall not bring up other issues, but I think, Purifiying Light should also work against shields and interrupts from ranged attacks such as crushing shock should follow CC immunity just like everything else. Then Templar casters might have a future in pvp, because basically all their casts are channeled or have castime.

Venomback · December 2015

It's funny how I recognize all of the problems listed and I agree entirely of their existence. The most annoying one is casting it and you see it go off but not one of the jabs hits anything... Just "air jabs.

For the rest, I have just gotten used to it all and adapted but it would be great to fix these issues.

SemiD4rkness · December 2015

Remove cc. Add snare. Increase damage by a lot. Like 200% instead of 140% (at least for the stam morph)
I see no balance in 1s cast 12k dmg vs insta surprise attack for 15k dmg.

Grymhawk · December 2015

I have not been able to test this so it's just a suspicion at this point.

In PVE puncturing sweeps provides a very good amount of healing and increases our survivability substantially. In PVP the healing component is lackluster. I suspect this skill is possibly being double hit by Battle Spirit. The damage is being reduced by 50% and then the healing off that reduced damage is being reduced a further 50%.

If this is the case it should not work this way. If the damage is cut in half the associated heal should be unmodified.

Has anyone been able to test and can prove / disprove this? I'm on console, we operate blind here.

Joy_Division · December 2015

Most templars have begged for months to do something with the undesirable knockbock that in effect grants our opponents CC immunity for little cost. Either make it a proper stun or remove the CC effect and instead replace it was some sort of snare/soft CC and set them off balance.

I still think some CC effect needs to be there as it was the original intent of the skill and Templar DPS is dependent on a Exploiter Passive grants 10% bonus damage to off-balance targets, which, as much as we dislike the way the current mechanics, does count (or at least that is what I have been told by people who tested this).

Cryhavoc · December 2015

Yes, please fix and modify this skill. I use it all day, every day.

ryanborror · December 2015

Sweeps heal needs to crit

ryanborror · December 2015

@Nifty2g

Mumyo · December 2015

ineffective weaving and giving every defence away should indeed do more dmg. No skipping aswell.

danno8 · December 2015

Grymhawk wrote: »

I have not been able to test this so it's just a suspicion at this point.

In PVE puncturing sweeps provides a very good amount of healing and increases our survivability substantially. In PVP the healing component is lackluster. I suspect this skill is possibly being double hit by Battle Spirit. The damage is being reduced by 50% and then the healing off that reduced damage is being reduced a further 50%.

If this is the case it should not work this way. If the damage is cut in half the associated heal should be unmodified.

Has anyone been able to test and can prove / disprove this? I'm on console, we operate blind here.

It was like that on PTS, but fixed before it went live pre- IC.

It was the same thing for Radiant Glory, Puncturing Sweep and Blazing Shield. Any skill that did "x" based off of "y" was hit twice effectively.

Grymhawk · December 2015

Forget the knockback, make jabs or sweep blind the closest target for x seconds (subject to CC immunity). And while they can't see you, your 10% damage boost from stealth passive kicks in. I mean it is a blazing white spear of searing light being thrust into your opponent.

Please?

Nifty2g · December 2015

ryanborror wrote: »

@Nifty2g

it really should crit
but have you guys tested this like asayre has? it seems like it isn't broken?

TiiZzArD xx · January 2016

Bump, this needs to be fixed. I'm tired of trying to duel and missing half my sweeps and doing little to no damage to anyone with a ward.

Dread_Guy · January 2016

When you're rooted by talons or other abilities, you can't turn at all until you get out of the root and your jabs continue in one direction

Ashamray · January 2016

Dread_Knight_N7 wrote: »

When you're rooted by talons or other abilities, you can't turn at all until you get out of the root and your jabs continue in one direction

And Cleanse is not a counter really, so it is sad to be a templar when magic DK or NB hangs on you )

AJ_1988 · January 2016

Bumping this thread.

@ZOS_GinaBruno sweeps really need to have their heal against damage shield. Someone can stand there all day with something like ward ally and not take a single bit of damage and light attack you to death because you can't heal. ( not that I can understand why someone would let themselves die to a light attack). Just saying for arguments sake.

Jar_Ek · January 2016

Jabs is an aoe ability, a clunky one but an aoe nevertheless. So if it got boosted to be better single target than wb then it would be too good. Maybe if a morph was single target and had a higher damage, but not if still aoe.

SteveCampsOut · October 2016

I'd be happy if Puncturing Sweep would just stop freezing my game in Cyrodil above ground! Doesn't happen in Cyrodil Delves or Imperial City, Just in Cyrodil itself. Doesn't happen in any PVE zones. Just Cyrodil!

Brotherchaotic · April 2018

I would just be really happy if jabs wouldn't miss. The only way I can land hits is when an enemy isn't moving. I'm not talking about dodge rolling either. Just walking. I can hit someone from a decent distance if they sit still and let me. PvE you can't miss. Just at least fix jabs missing players.

Brotherchaotic · April 2018

This is how they work on players. They don't.

https://youtu.be/J2dWldxojQA

How they work on PvE.

https://youtu.be/DTcmIdc2_Sg

Checkmath · April 2018

Brotherchaotic wrote: »

This is how they work on players. They don't.
https://youtu.be/J2dWldxojQA

How they work on PvE.
https://youtu.be/DTcmIdc2_Sg

This is actually an issue from the server and the connection to you. Normally you want to hit enemies in front of you, but you miss. This is actually the case, because the enemy isnt there anymore. If you ride together with a friend and you ride in the same direction on the same spot on your screen doesnt mean you are at the same spot. Your friebd actually isnt there anymore and rides 10 meters in front of you despite you seeing him at the same spot as you. So if an enemy on your screen is in front of you and you do jabs, you mostly wont hit if the enemy is moving just because he isnt in the damage area anymore.

Brotherchaotic · April 2018

Still, my wife ran a circle pattern around me just to demo this. In Cyrodiil people don't run in circles. They stay remotely in the same area but still can't be hit with this 8x6 aoe. They could get up right after being stunned and still only connect with one out of 4 hits. The last hit is the most important with the 70% move reduction snare.

UppGRAYxDD · April 2018

They really should just drop the cone AOE and make it rectangle similar to wall of elements...

Brotherchaotic · April 2018

On a still target it can reach far and hit people even just about 180 degree semi circle in front of you. It's just when they move they somehow just miss outright.

Checkmath · April 2018

Brotherchaotic wrote: »

Still, my wife ran a circle pattern around me just to demo this. In Cyrodiil people don't run in circles. They stay remotely in the same area but still can't be hit with this 8x6 aoe. They could get up right after being stunned and still only connect with one out of 4 hits. The last hit is the most important with the 70% move reduction snare.

people dont run in circles in pvp? decent pvper never stand still and prefer running rounds around you to get to your back, since many ablities cant be casted on an enemy behind, especially when you are a templar or a dizzying swing spammer. best advice is to learn to anticipate the enemy's movement, so you can land jabs more consistently.

Checkmath · April 2018

anyway jabs need some adjustements. i stated two possibiliies to improve jabs for summerset in another thread about templar balance:
- shorten the casttime of jabs back to 0.8 seconds. this suggestion has two sides, which would be better for consistent damage and damage improvement in pve. jabs will more likely hit, when the different hits are casted in a shorter time window, since enemies will have less time to move out of the area of effect. seconds we can use the global cooldown to add weaving without losing time between jabs.
- move the snare from the last hit to the first one, so the enemy gets snared and jabs will hit more reliably, since the enemy cant move out that quick.