My only concern is that the removal of cadwell silver and gold has removed all level progression from the game post 50.. Are all the zones post 50 going to be scaled to what is now VR 16? If that's the case it removes all challenge from the game or sense of level progression.. at least right now you can skip the side quests and just to main story lines so you can get to zones that are higher VR then you are.. if everything is scaling.. well.. that goes out the window.. or if the person isn't the best player and only does green quests.. if everything scales they have no where to go to make things more easy.... That really is my only concern...

I'm most concerned about crafting and gear progression.

A switch to CP based gear means lower demand for the equivalent of VR1-15 mats and gear.

Currently, if you level an alt you still need to go through the ranks; meaning you probably are upgrading your gear every couple ranks.

Once CP is the determinating factor for gear crafting/progression; alts will immediately jump from 49 to the highest level gear you can have for your account, skipping all steps in between. For example, assuming CP 160 is equivalent to VR 16 gear, one you have 160 CP, all other characters you level jump immediately from 49 to VR16 equivalent gear.

Imo, when they remove VR; they need to remove vertical gear progression beyond 50 as well, because having it based on account wide progression will just create demand and supply issues (which will effect new players leveling their mains). If they want an example of how to do end game gear without using vertical progression, they just need to look to D3 ROS...

Annalyse wrote: »

I understand completely that people who are in this only for PvP for endgame things do not have the patience to level a bunch of alt characters up, and that's why I suggested it being optional. You can just get a choice at 50 and those of us that don't want alts to skip everything can choose that.

Speaking as a 100% non-endgame PvE player, I am not sure how this would work. Would VR1-VR16 (if kept) have no mechanical impact? No stat or skill-point increases? Because if they did have a mechanical impact, why would the people undertaking competitive activities voluntarily gimp themselves? These are the people who grind a system that was never intended to be for grinding (Champion Points). Why would they miss out on bonuses just because of the levelling system? (which is what they already have been used to)

...and if it doesn't have a mechanical impact, then is the number over your head anything other than an imaginary scorecard? Would CPs not fill this roll? Or is it the public broadcast aspect that makes it aspirational for you?

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So far as I know they only stuff we be loosing is the 16 skill and attribute points we earned VR1-16. Which to mean I hate cause there points and all.

That is not my understanding. They said the plan is that we will lose nothing whatsoever. I don't think the implementation is decided for many details.

The idiotic thing is that right now NO ONE needs to do Cadwell's Silver or Gold to get to VR16. The last two alts I have leveled I skipped the whole Cadwell thing. Anyone familiar with the game knows where to grind and get an alt to VR16 at an easy pace in a couple of weeks. The longer part is leveling the undaunted guild and pvp assault skills, and that won't change. So,
ZOS is hurting those of us loyal players here since Beta to coddle new players who don't even know what they need to do to level a character in this game.

For the last three months ZOS made us grind like hamsters on a wheel to get the best crafted gear. I have all gold VR16 gear and 465 CP and with the change I am going to have to wear 160 CP level gear? Are you kidding me???

I'm really angry, and ZOS will find out how angry all the established players are after they nerf everything we had to work for for the last two years.

Ev
Grumpy Templar

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Glaiceana wrote: »

I want to know what happens with our weapons and armour. Instead of its level saying VR16, it's going to say something like "Level 501 CP"? That would be weird and laughable.
Also, people who want vet ranks removed all seem to have a different reason why, and I still don't really understand any of them. One reason people complain about is the "terrible grind from Lv50 to VR16", but what they don't realise is that they are forgetting the much longer grind they will have to get to the CP cap... so they don't escape anything.

I could not agree more. From the first time the idea of removing vet ranks was proposed I have thought it is a terrible idea. I don't care how anyone dresses it up with CP this or Cadwell's that. The fact is that vr16 will drop back to level 50. So will every item in the game tied to the veteran ranks. There is no other way to see this except the truth...progress people have made will be taken away from them.

Whoop-de-doo, so I'll get 160 (or whatever) CP in exchange for taking away 16 levels of progress from me. Sorry, but it isn't a fair exchange at all. I put in time and effort over nearly two full years to get three characters to vr16. When they go back to level 50, nothing is going to take the sting out of that for me. Nothing.

I also leveled up enchanting, alchemy, nearly all pieces of crafted armor, and most weapons, and have every skyshard in the game so far. Going back to 50 will make all of that feel like a total waste of two years.

Also agree. I really don't see why this is happening at all except to cater to casuals. I can go from 1-50 in one day. People will level their guy for a few weeks, hit cap, and get bored and quit.

THIS GAME ISNT LIKE OTHER GAMES. It's supposed to take a ton of time to accomplish things. It's when you do accomplish these things, that you feel rewarded, and that's why we keep playing.

What's funny is no one realizes, once people hit the "top" level of 50, they won't understand why they continue to get destroyed in pvp. It's the cp that changes things and makes people stronger than others. Removing v1-16 doesn't fix that.

If they wanted to simply remove the restriction of having to beat Caldwell silver to access gold, I wouldn't care. But this all seems extreme and no ones yet to explain one simple reason that makes sense to me. As someone who's played thousands of hours, it sucks. Don't turn your back on me to cater to someone who will leave the game soon regardless. (Casuals)

Evilie wrote: »

The idiotic thing is that right now NO ONE needs to do Cadwell's Silver or Gold to get to VR16. The last two alts I have leveled I skipped the whole Cadwell thing. Anyone familiar with the game knows where to grind and get an alt to VR16 at an easy pace in a couple of weeks. The longer part is leveling the undaunted guild and pvp assault skills, and that won't change. So,
ZOS is hurting those of us loyal players here since Beta to coddle new players who don't even know what they need to do to level a character in this game.

For the last three months ZOS made us grind like hamsters on a wheel to get the best crafted gear. I have all gold VR16 gear and 465 CP and with the change I am going to have to wear 160 CP level gear? Are you kidding me???

I'm really angry, and ZOS will find out how angry all the established players are after they nerf everything we had to work for for the last two years.

Ev
Grumpy Templar

Also agree. Glad to see I'm not alone. It may be pathetic but I play his game almost all day everyday. I work from home, and can afford to do that. It really does feel like they're slapping the loyal players in the face to cater to casuals (who would leave the game regardless) letting them feel they hit the top level much much faster, will only DRIVE THEM AWAY FASTER.

End rant!

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Put then to Achivements and Achivements account wide. I personally hope they just remove Silver and Gold, we dont need so much content anymore, at launch tripled content was excellent idea, but when you add a few more DLC to this game, people wont do Silver and Gold anyway, because theres so much to do.

Then why keep playing?

It's these things that have kept me hooked. If I could just swoop in and grab it all with no effort then what's left to do?

If I was Zen, I'd remove Silver and Gold, finally assemble the endgame, add new awesome DLCs to compensate the lost of Silver and Gold.

Evilie wrote: »

The idiotic thing is that right now NO ONE needs to do Cadwell's Silver or Gold to get to VR16. The last two alts I have leveled I skipped the whole Cadwell thing. Anyone familiar with the game knows where to grind and get an alt to VR16 at an easy pace in a couple of weeks. The longer part is leveling the undaunted guild and pvp assault skills, and that won't change. So,
ZOS is hurting those of us loyal players here since Beta to coddle new players who don't even know what they need to do to level a character in this game.

For the last three months ZOS made us grind like hamsters on a wheel to get the best crafted gear. I have all gold VR16 gear and 465 CP and with the change I am going to have to wear 160 CP level gear? Are you kidding me???

I'm really angry, and ZOS will find out how angry all the established players are after they nerf everything we had to work for for the last two years.

Ev
Grumpy Templar

You do realize 160 cp = vr 16 so wearing 160cp required gear is = wearing vr16 required gear. I don't understand the anger here....

I'd like to know what they intend to do with all the current VR mats that will become useless to anyone that has a vr16 and 160cp points once this is implemented? They will be able to just have top armour on any new alts once they reach lvl 50. Will they simply loose them? try to squeeze them into the 1-50 lvls or will they make 1-50 longer to grind so they can fit them in? If it's the latter then you haven't gained anything by the removal of VR

Annalyse wrote: »

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Glaiceana wrote: »

I want to know what happens with our weapons and armour. Instead of its level saying VR16, it's going to say something like "Level 501 CP"? That would be weird and laughable.
Also, people who want vet ranks removed all seem to have a different reason why, and I still don't really understand any of them. One reason people complain about is the "terrible grind from Lv50 to VR16", but what they don't realise is that they are forgetting the much longer grind they will have to get to the CP cap... so they don't escape anything.

I could not agree more. From the first time the idea of removing vet ranks was proposed I have thought it is a terrible idea. I don't care how anyone dresses it up with CP this or Cadwell's that. The fact is that vr16 will drop back to level 50. So will every item in the game tied to the veteran ranks. There is no other way to see this except the truth...progress people have made will be taken away from them.

Whoop-de-doo, so I'll get 160 (or whatever) CP in exchange for taking away 16 levels of progress from me. Sorry, but it isn't a fair exchange at all. I put in time and effort over nearly two full years to get three characters to vr16. When they go back to level 50, nothing is going to take the sting out of that for me. Nothing.

I also leveled up enchanting, alchemy, nearly all pieces of crafted armor, and most weapons, and have every skyshard in the game so far. Going back to 50 will make all of that feel like a total waste of two years.

Completely agree with this.

Not only that, but levelling has always been a goal for me, so now I will likely just start quitting alts at 50 since I don't care about PvP. And that makes me sad.

What I personally would love to see is Vet ranks kept as they are, but each alt character offered an option when they hit 50 via a popup window (much like the option to skip the tutorial after you have done it once) asking if they would like to skip ahead to the level of their current highest character. That way the people who are sick of levelling alts would be appeased, and people like myself could choose "no" and continue with normal progression.

There is nothing stopping you doing all of silver and all of gold.
The difference now is its optional.
And optional is exactly what you just asked for.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Speaking as a 100% non-endgame PvE player, I am not sure how this would work. Would VR1-VR16 (if kept) have no mechanical impact? No stat or skill-point increases? Because if they did have a mechanical impact, why would the people undertaking competitive activities voluntarily gimp themselves? These are the people who grind a system that was never intended to be for grinding (Champion Points). Why would they miss out on bonuses just because of the levelling system? (which is what they already have been used to)

...and if it doesn't have a mechanical impact, then is the number over your head anything other than an imaginary scorecard? Would CPs not fill this roll? Or is it the public broadcast aspect that makes it aspirational for you?

Since I'm not sure exactly how the CP system will work with alt characters skill point-wise, that is hard to answer. But I assume it could be made to work the same. For example - if the upcoming system is planned for an alt character at level 50 to instantly have the same number of skill points as the current main vet level character (since something was mentioned of 10 CP = 1 skill point, but the character would have hundreds of CP already), then what I propose would do the same. If the CP system is not giving those skill points automatically then I have absolutely no idea how it is supposed to work for characters that reach 50 and already have hundreds of CP.

What it comes down to is, the highest number of complaints I have seen about the vet level system was from people who didn't want to keep relevelling alts that high because it was tedious. I get that. But there must be a way to make it so that those of us that don't want to skip all that progression on our alts can opt out.

As to CPs filling the role, it wouldn't work for me. Right now, I work hard at getting one vet level and when I achieve it, I get the stat and skill point and can craft a new set of gear. I look forward to that. With CPs, my alts will already have the same level gear as my main so they just skip past all of that. I have alts scattered throughout the vet levels currently - when the change comes about and they are suddenly all the same level, all capable of wearing the same gear, and at the CP cap already - that will really bother me. Where do I go from there? I'll feel like I have to delete all of my characters and start again to clear the CP points just to be able to have visual progression. And even then, a big part of the achievement is having that visible number that shows level difference from the other people around you. If I look around and just see a pool of level 50s everywhere I will find that disappointing.

I admit that I don't fully know how the new system will work. All I know is that to me, a levelling number is very important as a goal, and I don't want my alts to be skipped through progression because that gives me nothing to play for. I don't care about running through lands for lorebooks and skyshards - if I can't level up anymore, that stuff doesn't really matter because I feel like I'm done. Which is pretty much why the original low level cap in GW2 failed to work - you can have a lot of extra content but there are a lot of people that use levelling as a goal, and they don't tend to stick around without it.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Evilie wrote: »

The idiotic thing is that right now NO ONE needs to do Cadwell's Silver or Gold to get to VR16. The last two alts I have leveled I skipped the whole Cadwell thing. Anyone familiar with the game knows where to grind and get an alt to VR16 at an easy pace in a couple of weeks. The longer part is leveling the undaunted guild and pvp assault skills, and that won't change. So,
ZOS is hurting those of us loyal players here since Beta to coddle new players who don't even know what they need to do to level a character in this game.

For the last three months ZOS made us grind like hamsters on a wheel to get the best crafted gear. I have all gold VR16 gear and 465 CP and with the change I am going to have to wear 160 CP level gear? Are you kidding me???

I'm really angry, and ZOS will find out how angry all the established players are after they nerf everything we had to work for for the last two years.

Ev
Grumpy Templar

In my case, I've been playing since beta as well, leveled multiple characters and always hated having to do Cadwell's Silver to unlock the skyshards in Cadwell's Gold area.

The way it currently works, leveling alts through veteran ranks is such a slow, painful process. I have several ranging from V1 to V10 and as much as I'd like to try different character classes and races in endgame PVP, I just haven't been patient enough to get any all the way to V16 yet.

This. I've been here subbed since beta, have multiple v16s, am right now leveling another from 50 - v16: it's boring.

• Silver and gold are boring. I've done all these quests 4 or 5 times already, the mobs and bosses are faceroll easy. I would much rather spend my free time attempting something challenging than yet again chasing guar around Stonefalls.
• Grinding is boring. I love it when people say "oh you can just grind up to v16 in a week or so if you know the good spots." This is a video game, I'm playing to have fun. I'll grind when I'm doing my taxes IRL, in a game I would much rather enjoy myself.

The removal of veteran ranks will change absolutely nothing about your characters except the number that's next to your name on your name plate. You keep all your attribute & skill points, you still get access to the same tier of gear you had before. All the other progression options remain for those folks that must see some counter ticking upwards to feel that they are progressing. There's still the skyshard/skillpoint grind, the CP grind, the gear grind, the undaunted grind, the alliance rank grind, the legerdemain grind, etc. The only effective change is that now it will be much easier to jump into the grind you actually want to play as opposed to needing a 13 million XP offering to the Daedra before you feel like you're actually at "endgame."

Annalyse wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

There is nothing stopping you doing all of silver and all of gold.
The difference now is its optional.
And optional is exactly what you just asked for.

I didn't ask for that to be optional. I couldn't care less if those lands were optional or not. As long as I am levelling up, I will do the quests there.

What I wanted optional was for alts to be able to not become suddenly equal the main level characters upon reaching 50.
I like my alts to level up like a whole new character because otherwise, I have already achieved everything at level 50 and have nothing left to do. When I run out of levels in a game I tend to make alts just to start over and level them up again, but since 1-50 can be done in a just a few days even by questing there isn't enough challenge to really bother.

So you hit 50 and magically have 300+ skillpoints, BiS gear, alliance rank 25 and all the achievements unlocked? I guess I'm out of date because I never saw anything like that in the ZOS comments on VR removal.

Bartdude wrote: »

I'd like to know what they intend to do with all the current VR mats that will become useless to anyone that has a vr16 and 160cp points once this is implemented? They will be able to just have top armour on any new alts once they reach lvl 50?

Yes, this is my understanding and very much hope it turns out to be how this works.

The mats for crafting V1 to V14 gear won't become useless, still needed for people who are below champion rank X; eventually, however, there will be very few of those people.

.